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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Sinless Perfection

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BrianPaul
Member



Joined: 2007/10/3
Posts: 68
Moorpark, CA

 Re:

If anyone tells me i "have to" sin another day of my life, and calls himself a Christian, he is a fool. Christ shows us its possible not to sin. As Ravenhill says "the Titanic was not impossible to sink, but it was possible for it not to sink, and the same is true in the Christian life, its not impossible to sin, but possible not to sin". Also just a funny side note, Ravenhill also says people sometimes would tell him he was preaching sinless perfection and he would respond, what are you preaching, adultery, lust, covetousness, lying.

Im saying this from personal experience: Most Christians feel that they are still in bondage to sin, such as lust for many men. What kind of hope is it to tell people, well one day when you die it will go away. That s*cks! Matt 1:21 says "21She will bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins." I listened to a video yesterday on youtube by Ernest O'Neill called "A Simple Gospel", great stuff. He emphasizes how that verse Matt 1:21 says "from" not "in". Most Christians think Jesus saves us in our sins. Not true, he saves us from our sins.
Be encouraged you people who hate sin and want to destroy it from your life. Look unto Jesus! I know most all of us in this forum love God and have different beliefs on different doctrinal or theological issues. I dont believe i stand for or against anyone in particular on this topic of sinless perfection. I just say we dont have to sin, and its possible not to sin, and i know most would agree. Things just come out weird on this topic because most people dont know the definition of sinless perfection.
I dont know the definition that is the one set in stone, but im coming more to a conclusion as i see my own life work itself out in Christ that: I think a Christian can live without deliberate sin(so in a sense sinless perfection). There are many sins i could commit that i am unaware of, but i can stop the ones i am aware of because Christ said "with God all things are possible".
One more side note, to try and emphasize this point.

Ask yourself:

Can i go a second without sin?
Can i go a minute without sin?
Can i go a hour without sin?
Can i go a day without sin?
Can i go a week without sin?

I ask these questions in Christ can you go without sin, not in the flesh.

Some people i have asked these questions to who are poeple i know are born again, answer "no" to all these questions. It just shows that they have so ingrained into their minds they are still sinners all the time. These people generally dont know much about be more than a conqueror through Him that loved us.
Now also as you may wonder about me. Im not perfect not even close. But i see these past couple weeks God is delivering me from sin. I know that if i continue to strive and abide in Him, He will in me.

Try going a week without any sin. Really just try to obey God. See what happens. One more thing, Hebrews 11:6 "6And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him."

Amen.



_________________
Brian

 2008/6/10 21:33Profile
JelloTaster
Member



Joined: 2006/11/6
Posts: 44
Winnipeg MB

 Re:

I would like to throw in my two cents (some of you may think it's not even worth that much)! The Gospel of Luke makes many references to Jesus' dependance on the Holy Ghost. Well, that is the same Holy Ghost that lives in us. Theoretically, sinless perfection after conversion is possible because of this. Sinless perfection is what I strive for. When I sin, I once again strive for sinless perfection.


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Chris Wiebe

 2008/6/10 23:24Profile









 Re: brothertom did not write a baby could be born sinless. That was hmmhmm.




Logic: I quoted someone about the baby being born sinless.

 2008/6/10 23:48
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3707
Ca.

 Re:

Genesis 3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

This is the pain of sin and conception David is speaking of from his mother's womb.

Psalms 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Sex and conception is not sin unless it is in fornication.

Genesis 1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

But the birthing itself is in sin because of the pain and sorrow of the curse of the sin upon it.

That is the pain and sorrow because of Eve's sin. Why does a child cry? Because he is not getting what he wants. It only multiplies from then on. David knowing from the conception his past life, agreeing with God, that he was born into and through sin. The original sin that Jesus took away at the Cross for the whole world. Individual sin we have no more because of confession, and our Advocate with the Father, He being faithful and just to forgive and cleanse from all unrighteousness.

In Christ: Phillip


_________________
Phillip

 2008/6/11 1:08Profile
SaintLina
Member



Joined: 2007/4/10
Posts: 20
Mexico

 Re: Sinless Perfection

The Sinless Perfection Test

This is a test for all the sinless ‘Christians’ who claim to be on par with the same sinlessness of Jesus Christ Himself, in present practice in this life while still in the body of flesh, particulalry those who deny that 1 John 1:8 applies to the Christian. That we may not be deceived or mistaken as to the nature and definition of sin, let us define exactly what sin is. According to Scripture, there are at least five basic definitions of sin. Here are the scriptures that define this for us:

1. “But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.” (Romans 7:23)

2. “Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.” (1 John 3:4)

3. “Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.” (James 4:17)

4. “And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.” (Romans 14:23)

5. “For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God.” (Romans 3:23, 1 John 5:17)


Correspondingly, here are the definitions of sin in numeric order as quoted above:

1. Sin is a law that dwells in the flesh
2. Sin is transgression of God’s law
3. Sin is knowing to do good but not doing it
4. Sin is anything not done in faith
5. Sin is anything that comes short of the glory of God

Let us now take each of these definitions of sin and examine ourselves. Please don’t just read through these questions and skim over them lightly, for they undeniably prove sinless perfection to be utterly false. As you read each question, ask yourself if you’ve done or if you’ve failed in this. I am especially addressing those of you who claim to have attained to some degree of sinless perfection. The following questions correspond numerically with the definitions of sin above:

1. Have you been born of an earthly father and mother and are you a descendant of Adam? If so, you have a sinful nature (a “law of sin” –Rom. 7:23) that dwells within your flesh and you are inherently defiled and thereby guilty in the eyes of a holy God. (Romans 5:12, Job 15:14-16, Job 25:4, Psalm 51:5)

2. Do you perfectly obey the Law of God in thought, word and deed; plus in motive, desire, intention, etc.? Since becoming a Christian, have you ever exaggerated or stretched the truth, or said something that indirectly portrayed a false witness (lying)? Or have you lied when witnessing to someone, and a sinner on the streets asks you if you are without sin and you say you are? Have you ever looked with lust, even for half a second, at a member of the opposite sex (adultery)? Have you ever had a single impure thought? Have you ever desired to have something that does not belong to you or even entertained the thought of desiring it (covetousness)? Have you ever called somebody a “fool” or “idiot”, or any other insulting name, out of the least degree of anger (which is murder)? Have you even entertained the thought of doing it? Have you accidentally taken a pen, paperclip, or any other item that does not belong to you and failed to make restitution (stealing)? Have you kept the Sabbath holy? Have you perfectly honored your parents in everything you do and say? Have you ever done anything, even the smallest of actions, or said the simplest of words, with regard to how it will benefit you yourself supremely rather than how it will benefit God, or done anything that disobeys any single command of scripture (1st commandment)? Have you ever made a single decision out of self-will? How about loving the Lord with all your heat, mind, soul and strength, and loving your neighbor as yourself? Have you totally, completely, absolutely and perfectly done that since becoming a Christian? Or have you made the slightest decision or thought the smallest thought of getting some kind of personal benefit out of something rather than your neighbor in your stead? If you are truthful, you must certainly admit your guilt in the eyes of God, at least in thought or word.

3. Have you ever not done something you know you should have done, since becoming a Christian (or since becoming sinlessly perfect)? Did you know something to be the good thing to do, or the best thing to do, but you failed to do it? Have you always done all the good you can, in all the ways you can, by all the means you can, to all the people you can, in all the places you can, as long as you ever can? Or have you failed in this? If you’ve failed in this, you must certainly admit your sin before God, or else you deceive yourself.

4. Have you always had perfect faith before God? Have you ever doubted a single promise of scripture (which would be unbelief)? Have you always done everything you have ever done since becoming a Christian in perfect, unwavering faith? Have you ever prayed for the sick and thought within your heart that they will not be healed because of your unbelief? Have you ever attempted to ask something in prayer that God promises in His word but thought within your heart of hearts that He won’t answer? Is every thought that you think a thought of perfect faith, in full conformity to the glory of God? If you don’t admit to your present imperfections in this, then you are obviously blind and fooled. You are certainly guilty of sin in the eyes of God.

5. Since becoming a Christian (or attaining to “perfection“ if you claim to have done), have you done anything that comes morally short of the goodness and glory of God? Have you thought a single thought that Christ Himself wouldn’t think? Have you spoken a single word that Christ Himself wouldn’t speak? Have you done a single thing that Christ Himself wouldn’t do? Or are you so deceived as to honestly think you currently meet the standards of God’s glory? Can you actually stand in your present state in front of the very Throne of God and have such audacity as to believe you won’t cry out like Isaiah the holy prophet: “Woe is me, I am undone, for I am a man of unclean lips” (Is. 6)? Remember, anything, anything at all, that comes morally short of the perfect glory of God is sin. Unless you are deceived, you must certainly admit your present guilt.

And, on top of these questions, ask yourself if you have ever thought a single thought that God would consider foolish? As it is written: “The thought of foolishness is sin” (Proverbs 24:9). Even thinking something foolish is sin. Do you honestly claim to be able to walk in such a state as to never think a single thought that God would consider foolish? Therefore, offending any single one of the points listed above even in just a brief thought is considered sin in the eyes of a perfectly holy and righteous God who can read and see your thoughts just as clearly as He can your outward actions.

As we can see, only a totally deceived, blind, and ignorant and self-righteous Pharisee would ever even dare to say that they don’t presently fall short in any single one of these areas. Further, in light of these definitions of sin, we conclude it utterly impossible for any one, with the exception of Christ alone, to be without present sin before the face of the God of Heaven this side of eternity. And this is only a very brief and partial list. We could go much, much more in detail with the self-examination questions listed above if we wanted, but such a brief list will suffice to prove the point. Seeing such a partial list alone has every mouth stopped and the whole world guilty before God, so what will happen, dear soul, when you stand before the very Throne of such a perfect and glorious God! Will you dare claim to say before His all-seeing eyes that you or any other man was without present sin and unworthiness? If you think you will, then may the very jaws of Hell open up wide to swallow you in your Pharisaical self-righteousness except ye repent! If you don’t admit any present sin in light of these questions, then by the testimony of the word of God I say to you that the tax-collectors and harlots will enter the Kingdom of God before you!

Seeing exactly what sin is as defined in Scripture according to these five basic definitions has the most righteous of righteous men crying out, as did the holy and anointed King David, “Withhold not thou thy tender mercies from me, O LORD: let thy lovingkindness and thy truth continually preserve me. For innumerable evils have compassed me about: mine iniquities have taken hold upon me, so that I am not able to look up; they are more than the hairs of mine head: therefore my heart faileth me.” (Psalms 40:11-12) Seeing this has every one of us crying out with the wisest man that ever lived: “For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not” (Ecclesiastes 7:20) and again, “Who can say, I have made my heart clean, I am pure from my sin?” (Proverbs 20:9). Seeing this, one can not help but to think, along with what the Apostle Paul said commenting on David’s words elsewhere: “Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.” (Romans 4:6-8)

DISCLAIMER: Nothing said in this short questionnaire should be taken as a justification for willful sin in the life of a professing Christian. The Bible says if we continue to sin willfully (that is, against known light in known sin by an act of the will), and persist in that sin without true repentance after receiving the knowledge of the truth, then there is no sacrifice left to cover our sins (Christ’s blood then profits us nothing), and all we have to look forward to is the fierce judgment of God (Hebrews 10:26-31). If you claim to be a Christian, but you have tolerated any known form of sin in your life, and you’re not fighting it, wrestling against it, hating it with all your heart, and finding repentance and ultimately, victory over it, then you are in grave and serious danger. The grace of God teaches us to deny ungodliness and worldly lusts, and the business of a Christian is a conduct of habitual holiness and love, and bearing fruit for God’s glory. Though in many things we offend all, especially in word, the true Christian does not commit and continue in ANY known sin, and if he stumbles, he will find true repentance quickly. If you are living in any known sin, and you continue to do that sin over and over, and aren’t fighting for your deliverance with a holy violence, and seeking victory above everything else in life, then you have very much reason to doubt the reality of your salvation. Those born of God have a new nature within them, which causes them to hate sin and love holiness, and the practical conduct of all Christians who have been born again undeniably proves that their practice is one of habitual righteousness and true holiness by faith in Jesus Christ.


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Lina

 2008/6/11 2:29Profile









 Re:

No one in this world has ever reached sinless perfection. I dont even know why this is being debated.

(Jesus didnt reach sinless perfection because He was perfectly sinless)

Krispy

 2008/6/11 7:37









 Re:

Quote:
I would like to throw in my two cents (some of you may think it's not even worth that much)! The Gospel of Luke makes many references to Jesus' dependance on the Holy Ghost. Well, that is the same Holy Ghost that lives in us. Theoretically, sinless perfection after conversion is possible because of this. Sinless perfection is what I strive for. When I sin, I once again strive for sinless perfection.



This is bad, [b][u][i]very bad[/i][/u][/b] theology.

First off, Jesus was God in flesh. You are not. You flippantly make it sound as tho there is no difference between you and Jesus.

Secondly, if what you say is true, using your logic then you would also be able to walk on water, turn water into wine, heal anyone you wished to, feed 5,000 with a couple of fish and loavess, drive out demons, be transformed into you're heavenly body so you can talk with Moses and other OT prophets, come back from the dead, ascend into heaven... oh, I almost forgot... create everything that was created... etc etc...

Finish that list first, and then we'll discuss whether or not you can reach sinless perfection. Personally, I think you'll have an easier time finishing the above list than you'll have reaching sinless perfection.

Krispy

 2008/6/11 7:42









 Re: Saint Lina: Personally. I could't get past qualification #one.




Yip. I started to see if I could qualify on the perfect thing, and got stuck about that part about being born. Well, my mom says so, so that finishes that!


I suppose I'll go back, trudgin' along, the old fashioned way, trusting in Jesus and His Blood. You think it still works?

 2008/6/11 10:35









 Re:

Quote:
You think it still works?



Unless you're not one of the elect... then you're just wastin' yer time! lol...

Krispy

 2008/6/11 10:39









 Re: Krispy.



Unless a man has a sense of humor, he isn't really fully human.


I am still laughing, and yes, elected.

 2008/6/11 11:45





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