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hmmhmm
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Joined: 2006/1/31
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 Re: Sinless Perfection




[url=http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/visit.php?lid=15594]Let us go on (Compilation)[/url]


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 2008/6/10 16:03Profile
hmmhmm
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 Re: Sinless Perfection



[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n6IjTHa6bVQ]Overcoming temptation by Zac Poonen part 5[/url]


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 2008/6/10 16:08Profile









 Re:

Havent heard what Poonan thinks about scripture, but if it's different from what God said thru Paul or the other Apostles... then Poonan is wrong.

I get bugged when instead of prooving points with scripture, people refer other people to sermons and articles.

Krispy

 2008/6/10 16:13
hmmhmm
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Joined: 2006/1/31
Posts: 4991
Sweden

 Re:

Quote:

KrispyKrittr wrote:
Havent heard what Poonan thinks about scripture, but if it's different from what God said thru Paul or the other Apostles... then Poonan is wrong.

I get bugged when instead of prooving points with scripture, people refer other people to sermons and articles.

Krispy



scripture says HE is able to keep us from falling, we dont have to sin.

and the letter to the romans dont end in chapter seven, and the chapter divisions was not there from the beginning, if we continue we quickly come into chapter eight.

we dont want to stay in chapter seven, we want to get into chapter eight.

I dont hold the belief we are perfect, but we can continually cleanse us and the more God shows us the more we can become like Christ.

God shows us more and more, he has done so with me and i have much left, but i believe scripture, if i fall and sin i dont bend scripture to make it ok, or saying it cant be overcome or any alike, i see God says he is able to keep me, the fault must be mine, its not Gods fault we sin.

And if we cant help sin, how can God throw us in hell?


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 2008/6/10 16:22Profile
Thommy2
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Joined: 2008/6/3
Posts: 60
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 Re:

"Please, re-read my post and if you can refute any of my points, then, please do so and I will consider retracting."

Hold on..Let me start another thread on why there is no Trinity....I will forget that there is context to every verse, themes throughout scripture, and only camp on on what is convienient for me.
Logic when you are on this earth hanging out with the Glorified Christ b/c of your sinless perfection tell Jesus I say hello


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Thom

 2008/6/10 16:23Profile
Logic
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Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
Brothertom wrote:
Jesus shed His blood, but that is Eternal Blood, presented by Jesus Himself at the Alter of mercy, today, within the true Holies of Holies.

it is not "eternal blood" if your refering to Hebrews 9:14.
If it were "eternal blood" it woukd also be eternal flesh. His flesh from where His blood came from is no longer for it is glorified.
The effects of the blood are eternal though.

Quote:
We are [b]imputed[/b] righteousness as we confess our sins, AND the Father grants forgiveness, as He sees His Children covered by this Holy Blood, and thereby cleansed.

Never is it implied though, that our evil natures will be made holy by this blood. There is a difference. We will all be changed; some upon the entering of Heaven, some in a twinkling of an eye, but until then, only our sin is forgiven, and that by faith.


It is very much implied that our "evil natures" will be made holy.
We are to be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust(2Peter 1:4).
His "divine nature" is holiness which this next verse is also saying we partake of:
[b]Hebrews 12:10[/b] [color=990000]For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.[/color]

How is one holy if they don't stop continuing to willfuly, intentionally disobey, which is to sin?

Furthermore, the only reason our human nature is/was evil is because we did not love Christ.

With all this being against sinless perfection, you give License to sin.

 2008/6/10 16:41Profile
bonni
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Joined: 2005/8/9
Posts: 100
montana usa

 Re:

I would like to clarify that when I said that I was afraid that "sinless perfection " was heresy, I meant it in this light...


"Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect:But I follow after that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus."

" Brethren I count not myself to have apprehended"


"I press toward the mark"

"Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded"


"Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule "




I believe we have been aprehended of Christ for obedience. Salvation unto obedience.


John Wesley wrote in his article;


Yes, we do allow sin into our lives, but through the Holy Spirit our consciences tell us that we must “confess our sins” so that the faithful and just Lord would “forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness” (1 John 1:9.)

Conclusion
To suggest that Christ does not give us power over sin is to establish justification by works. But, sin no longer has dominion over the child of God (Romans 6:14.) We do not have to commit sin, have evil thoughts and wicked attitudes. God has created a new and clean heart within us (Ezekiel 36:25-36.
These are wonderful promises! But listen, “Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God” (2 Corinthians 7:1.) Instead of looking back to the way we were, let us look forward to what we ought to be, to the provisions won for us through the blood of Christ … “Forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before” (Philippians 3:13.)




I wholeheartedly agree with John Wesleys article.

I trust only in Christ's righteousness "imputed" for my salvation...

But I have been saved unto obedience, therefore I am trusting only in Christ's righteousness "imparted" (the Holy Spirit) to sanctify me and produce the fruit of the Spirit in me. But that also means that it is my job to abide in the vine so that I can receive the life flow of God's Spirit that enables me to obey. If I do not abide or "stay connected"I will begin to wither.

I believe if we christians are constantly making excuses for sin in our lives, it could be that we need to examine ourselves and see if we be in the faith.

We do not "have" to sin, it is definetly a choice.

Are we able to live the rest of our life as a christian obeying God?

Yes, because God said that sin no longer has dominion over us.

Is it likely that anyone will do that without ever sinning again?

Not very likely, ( I'm not sure that it would be good for us in the sense that we could become "proud" of it!)

Remember that Paul said that we still carry around this "body of death" ( Although it does not rule over us any longer).

I have seen times that God has allowed me to fail in some area(sin) to expose some root sin that I did not know was lurking. Nevertheless that sin was there and He knew it and lovingly exposed it to me. That is because He is the husbandman.


I had a friend that said " It's not how good you can become by the end of your life, but the PROCESS that's divine"

Blessings, bonni :-D


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Bonni

 2008/6/10 16:45Profile
Logic
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Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:

Thommy2 wrote:
"Please, re-read my post and if you can refute any of my points, then, please do so and I will consider retracting."

Hold on..Let me start another thread on why there is no Trinity....I will forget that there is context to every verse, themes throughout scripture, and only camp on on what is convienient for me.
Logic when you are on this earth hanging out with the Glorified Christ b/c of your sinless perfection tell Jesus I say hello

Tell me specifically why you can't stop sinning here on Earth right now.

And if you [b]can't[/b], tell me how that is a sin since you can't stop it?

 2008/6/10 16:47Profile









 Re: HmmHmm: The nature of an infant is sinfull.

"A babycan die,within minute after it's born, and they have not sinned."


The scripture says this: " [b]Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin my mother conceived me."[/b],,

[b]Psalm 51; vs. 5[/b]


An infant cannot sin volitionally, but he inherits Adams sin [i]NATURE[/i].




[b]"Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned."[/b]...Romans:5vs, ..12.

No man can see God and live. For the record Charles Finney got off into this error, using the exact logic. It is unscriptural, and to be avoided for this reason; that if it were possible to attain sinless perfection, then the Blood of Jesus, and His mercies through His Sacrifice, would no longer be Paramount. It would be centered around our devotion to Him, not His Love for us.


Finney ended up believing that a man could live his life this way, witout ever sinning, if of course, he tried hard enough. He wrote volumes and volumes of a legalistic maze explaining the hows to attain this life, [Finney was a great Evangelist and apologist. He just got off track here.]

They overcame him{the devil], by the blood of the Lamb,, the word of their testimoy, and they loved not their own lives unto death; not by being without sin here on Earth. The blood of the Lamb is Eternal, in Heaven, and sadly, it is appointed for all men to die, and [b]THEN[/b] the judgement. Either justified by the blood, or not.

 2008/6/10 16:58
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
Brothertom wrote:
"A babycan die,within minute after it's born, and they have not sinned."

Babies dying only prove that sin is not the cause of physical death.

Babies can not sin, for the do not know any law to rebel against.
There natures are not "sinfull", untill they are accountable.

As I said, we all still physically die because we are all subject to vanity and are under the bondage of corruption.
God subjected creation to these in hope for the glorious liberation of the children of God waiting for the adoption, that is, the redemption of our body(Rom 8:20-23)

Even though we would stop sinning would not stop the corrupting(decaying) of our bodies.

Quote:
The scripture says this: " Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin my mother conceived me.",

Psalm 51; vs. 5

A Perspective on Psalm 51:5
by William P. Murray, Jr.
Are men born sinners? A commonly abused 'proof' text is Psalm 51:5. Although I cannot claim the following as a result of my own scholarship or research, the information is a culmination from many sources over the years, and, I feel, the best explanation of this particular text that I have come across.
Psalm 51:5 - "Behold, I was shapen in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me." KJV
This is a Hebrew poetic parallelism, with the second line of the verse saying the same thing as the first line in a slightly different way. The first verb, of which David is the subject, is in the Pulal tense (as is "made" in # Job 15:7 ), which is an idiom used to refer to creation or origins, and is the 'passive' form of Polel ("formed": # Ps 90:2 Pro 26:10). TWOT, #623, 1:270.
The subject of this verse is NOT the state or constitution of David's nature as a sinner at, or before, his birth. The subject is, as the verse clearly states, the circumstances' of his conception- the sexual union which produced him was an act of sin, and addresses the unrighteousness of his mother's act, not anything (such as a sin nature) inherent within himself. (The NIV's version of this verse is an INTERPRETATION, not a translation:
"Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.")
David had two half-sisters (Zeruiah, Abigail).....:
1CHR 2:13-16 13 “And Jesse begat his firstborn Eliab, and Abinadab the second, and Shimma the third, 14 Nethaneel the fourth, Raddai the fifth, 15 Ozem the sixth, David the seventh: 16 Whose sisters were Zeruiah, and Abigail. And the sons of Zeruiah; Abishai, and Joab, and Asahel, three. 17 And Abigail bare Amasa: and the father of Amasa was Jether the Ishmeelite.”
....and the father of David's half-sisters was not Jesse, but Nahash:
2Sam 17:25 “And Absalom made Amasa captain of the host instead of Joab: which
Amasa was a man's son, whose name was Ithra an Israelite, that went in to Abigail the daughter of Nahash, sister to Zeruiah Joab's mother.”
Nahash, the father of Zeruiah and Abigal, David's half-sisters, was an Ammonite
king:
1Sam 11:1 “Then Nahash the Ammonite came up, and encamped against Jabeshgilead: and all the men of Jabesh said unto Nahash, Make a covenant with us, and we will serve thee.”
1Sam 12:12 “And when ye saw that Nahash the king of the children of Ammon came against you, ye said unto me, Nay; but a king shall reign over us: when the LORD your God was your king.”
David's father was Jesse, not Nahash. Zeruiah and Abigal were David's half-sisters through his mother's previous marriage to Nahash. This would also help explain why Nahash showed kindness to David, perhaps out of respect for David's mother, Nahash's former wife and the mother of two of Nahash's children.
2Sam 10:2 “Then said David, I will shew kindness unto Hanun the son of Nahash, as his father shewed kindness unto me. And David sent to comfort him by the hand of his servants for his father. And David's servants came into the land of the children of Ammon.”
David's mother was most likely the second wife of Jesse, the first wife being the mother of David's half-brothers. Jesse's first wife's standing before the 'righteousness of the law', (her not having been married to, or the concubine of, a heathen king, as was David's mother), would have been superior to that of David's mother, and explains why David's
half-brothers, Jesse's other sons, would have felt they were superior to David, and why he would be accused of being prideful, for thinking he was as good as them....
1Sam 17:28-30 28 “And Eliab his eldest brother heard when he spake unto the men; and Eliab's anger was kindled against David, and he said, Why camest thou down hither? and with whom hast thou left those few sheep in the wilderness? I know thy pride, and the
naughtiness of thine heart; for thou art come down that thou mightest see the battle.
29 And David said, What have I now done? Is there not a cause? 30 And he turned from him toward another, and spake after the same manner: and the people answered him again after the former manner.”
...and why David was not considered, by his father Jesse, as `true' a son as his halfbrothers.
Samuel had called Jesse and his sons, and thus expected `all' his sons, to the
sacrifice (1Sam 16:5,11). Jesse, having been told to bring `his sons' by a prophet of the Lord everyone feared (1Sam 16:4), was confident he had obeyed the prophet, even knowing he did not bring David....
1Sam 16:11 “And Samuel said unto Jesse, Are here all thy children? And he said, There remaineth yet the youngest, and, behold, he keepeth the sheep. And Samuel said unto Jesse, Send and fetch him: for we will not sit down till he come hither.”
....which would be consistent with God's sometimes choosing that which men esteemed as worthless (the `least') to be the greatest: (Gideon- Jud 6:15; King Saul- 1Sam 9:21; Jesus- Mt 2:6, Lk 9:48)
David's mother was apparently a Jewish woman, because `no Ammonite shall enter the congregation of the Lord to the 10th generation' (Deu 23:3), and yet in PS 86:16 and PS 116:16, David refers to himself as "the son of thy handmaid", which would seem to testify to his mother's relationship with the Lord. David's mother was, in the eyes of Jewish law, considered `defiled' by her previous relationship to an Ammonite.
Nu 25:1,2; De 7:3,4; 1ki 11:2-4, Ezr 9:2; Ne 13:23,25; 2Co 6:14-17
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Quote:
An infant cannot sin volitionally, but he inherits Adams sin NATURE.

Our natuer comes from what we are, which is human, and that is to grow and bear fruit.

Our fruit, weather sin or righteousness comes from what we love.

The effections of our will effects individual choices that we make. The choice that you make will naturally follow your effections. Consequently, if you love yourself or the world more than the one commanding you, you cannot consistently do things that please the commander. Your decisions are in bondage to your effections so that you only do what you have favor towards.
Love God, hate sin; Love yourself and the world, hate God.

However, all mankind is able to do that which they do not want to do.

John 15:4b ...As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me.
Romans 11:16b ...and if the root is holy, so are the branches.
Romans 11:24 For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree...

While we were not yet grafted into the cultivated olive tree (born from above), we were of our own tree with the root of ourself or in this world. If our root is of ourself or the world, we are selfish &/or worldly.

People do not have a "sin nature" just as an apple tree does not have an apple nature.
All sin is fruit from what man is rooted in, which is of eather three things. Rooted in Christ, the world or self.
Since Christ is the Root/Vine & man a tree/vinebranch.
If man is not grafted into Christ, he is selfish &/or worldly, because he has his own self as his root (effections on himself). Or he may also be worldly (effections on the world), for that is all he has(John 15:9, 1John 2:15)
This is the cause of all mans wickedness, that man is of the world and selfish and not of Christ and loving.

Therefore, the fruit does not make its nature, nor does the nature deside what its fruit is.

What makes it's fruit is what kind of tree and what it's root is of.
James 1:24 for he studied himself, and has gone away, and immediately he forgot of what kind he was.

What ever fruit it bears, the tree still has a nature of a plant, not an apple nature, oriange nature or banana nature.
The kind of fruit obviously does not change what it is or what nature it has, it will always remain a plant no matter what kind of fruit it bears.
However, what ever it is grafted into does change it's fruit, just as my analogy shows, which is of Scripture as I have shown.

What ever fruit man bears, sin or righteousness, it is still human nature.

Just as a trees nature is to bear fruit, so is mans.

Quote:
"Therefore, just as through one man, sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned."...Romans:5vs, ..12

[b]as by one man sin entered into the world:[/b]
Just that, the first transgression was introduced into the world by Adam.
and through sin, death through that paticular sin, physical death came.

[b]so also death passed to all men[/b]
physical death passed to all because the way to the tree of life was cut off and in hope for the glorious liberation of the children of God waiting for the adoption, that is, the redemption of our body(Rom 8:20-23)
Physical death, not spiritual death.
We all become spiritually dead after the age of accountability because of sin, therefore, we are all soulish, flesh driven in nature, being lead by the lusts of our flesh....

[b]upon all whom have sinned[/b]
but not to the extent that in the future all sined alredy.

Quote:
No man can see God and live. For the record Charles Finney got off into this error, using the exact logic. It is unscriptural, and to be avoided for this reason; that if it were possible to attain sinless perfection, then the Blood of Jesus, and His mercies through His Sacrifice, would no longer be Paramount. It would be centered around our devotion to Him, not His Love for us.

Since sinnless perfection is possible to attain, it is because the center is around a mutual loving relationship.
Not around devotion, but mutual love for each other, not just His love for us.

Do you try not to cheet on your wife?
No, there is no need to "try" because you naturaly don't cheet on your wife because you love her.
Therfore, why would you persist in sin if you love God?

Quote:
Finney ended up believing that a man could live his life this way, without ever sinning, if of course, he tried hard enough. He wrote volumes and volumes of a legalistic maze explaining the howes to attain this life,

All it takes is love. Why would you sin &/or keep sinning if you love HIM?
What is it with sin that you need to defend it?

Quote:
They overcame him{the devil], by the blood of the Lamb, the word of their testimony, and they loved not their own lives unto death; not by being without sin here on Earth.

What is overcoming the devil if it ain't the cessation if sin?
Notice, they did not love their lives to death, in contrast, they loved Christ(the Lamb) in stead.
This is pertaining to persecution.

What or WHOM is their testimony?
It isn't "how they got saved"

Quote:
The blood of the Lamb is Eternal, in Heaven, and sadly, it is appointed for all men to die, and THEN the judgment. Either justified by the blood, or not.

I'll ask you the same question that I asked Thommy2
Tell me specifically why you can't stop sinning here on Earth right now.

And if you can't, tell me how that is a sin since you can't stop it?

Quote:
The blood of the Lamb is Eternal, in Heaven, and sadly, it is appointed for all men to die, and THEN the judgment. Either justified by the blood, or not.

I'll ask you the same question that I asked Thommy2
Tell me specifically why you can't stop sinning here on Earth right now.

And if you can't, tell me how that is a sin since you can't stop it?

 2008/6/10 19:13Profile





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