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Logic
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Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Sinless Perfection

Quote:
bonni wrote:
I truly believe that God's grace gives the power to live an obedient life. He has freed us so that we can walk in obedience. But that obedience does not mean "sinless perfection" in this life. I am afraid that that would be heresy

Why is sinless perfection a heresy?

Doesn't Jesus coming in the flesh prove that sinless perfection is posible?

[b]Hebrews 4:15[/b] [color=990000]For we have not a high priest who cannot be touched with the feeling of our weaknesses; but was in all points tempted like we are, yet without sin.[/color]
If if Jesus could not have sinned, He would not have been the perfect High Priest.
Since Jesus could could have sinned, that means He only chose not to as we must do.
Jesus did not ever sin, not because He was God, but because He loved His Father.
If sinless perfection is not possible, then we have an excuse on the day of reconning, it will be that we could not have avoided the sins we committed because perfection was impossible.

Quote:
The psalmist said "as for me I will be satisfied when I awake in His likeness".

"In His likeness" means without this flesh, for we will have glorifide bodies.
We are already made in His image & after His likeness (Gen 1:26)

Quote:
As long as we are consistently walking in obedience, and quick to repent of any wrong thought, deed or motive, then we can have a clear concience before God.

It sounds as if those "wrong thoughts, deeds or motives" are unavoidable.
They are avoidable once we learn they are wrong.
There is no excuse or reason that we would continue in any of those we learn to be sinnfull.

Quote:
If we do sin we have an advocate with the Father... I am so thankful for Christ ,so thankful for His Spirit.

Amen, however, that "sin" which we do for HIM to advocate for us on was a willful, intentional act of disobedience against a known command/law.
Know one ever sins unintentionaly or without knowing it.

Ignorance is not an excuse, however, I am not talking about ignorance of the law, but understanding what the spirit of the law is which is love, for we are not under the law, but under grace. We are to follow the spirit of the law not after the flesh(Rom 8:2,4-5).

Quote:
He is the one who does the sanctifying, but we have to do the thing He says which is "Abide In Me" Then we will bear much fruit, and herein is my Father glorified. It is a process of being changed from glory to glory as we behold the face of Jesus.

Yes, this process is called sanctification.
However, we are only accountable to sins of which we know about.
When we first find out about a "sin" we were not accountable to it beforehand.
In other words, we did not sin doing that which is a sin if we don't know it's a sin.

Therefore, when we just learn of a certain thing we do to be a sin, we don't do any longer that which we just learned to be a sin. We did not sin though we just learned it was a sin since we were not accountable to it yet. The sin would be to continue in it when we learn it is a sin.
Thus, we remain to be sinless in this process of sanctification.

 2008/6/10 13:45Profile
Thommy2
Member



Joined: 2008/6/3
Posts: 60
Wisconsin

 Re: Sinless Perfection

Logic
With every stroke of the key (during your post) were the thoughts consuming your mind that of perfectly glorifying God in a manner he was worthy of being praised. Was every intention of every stroke that of "God you are so worthy of my adoration and in no way do I care of anything except praising you" Also was your post so absolutley perfect theologically that we (as a body of Christ followers) could not say.."here's a mistake where underlying sin may be the cause of error."

Also the Bible says that "When we SEE Him we will be like Him".....Were you literally gazing into the face of the Glorified Savior while typing this post....has anyone on this earth lived every second of their lives with only Glorifying God in Christ forefront in EVERY thought, with the ability to LITERALLY gaze on the glorified Christ any time they want to? B/C that is what sinless perfection will bring. Adam had the ability to speak with God face to face b/c of sinless perfection....Moses did only when God deemed appropriate, and Moses was killed by God b/c of sin! Paul asks churches to pray that he preaches the Gospel in a worthy matter b/c he was aware of possiblie sin!

Is sinless perfection possible........? No...the arrogance that stands behind a brother who would stand up and say "I have not sinned in "x" amount of days" is obvious.


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 2008/6/10 14:23Profile
hmmhmm
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Joined: 2006/1/31
Posts: 4991
Sweden

 Re:

Jud 1:24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,


1Pe 2:21-22 For even [b]hereunto were ye called[/b]: because Christ also suffered for us, [b]leaving us an example[/b], that ye should [b]follow his steps: Who did no sin[/b], neither was guile found in his mouth:


Heb 4:15-16 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.


Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.


1Co 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.


The first verse has been of much comfort for me personally [i] HE is able....[/i]




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CHRISTIAN

 2008/6/10 14:46Profile









 Re: Sinless Perfection


[b]If sinless perfection were possible, we would never die. We would be in a state as Adam: Heaven on Earth. [/b]


When you find such a person, Please send him or her over here, to Sermonindex. They'll straiten out all this squabbling! ;-)

 2008/6/10 14:52
hmmhmm
Member



Joined: 2006/1/31
Posts: 4991
Sweden

 Re: Sinless Perfection

Believers have freedom from an evil nature. The apostle Paul states, “I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave Himself for me” (Galatians 2:20.) Do not these words reveal that Christians have been delivered from both inward and outward sin? All true believers have had their hearts cleansed by faith, and seek to be pure and holy. They have a new inward nature that affects the outside. Instead of anger, bitterness and unforgiveness there is the spirit of meekness, gentleness, and self-control. [b]If, as some say, we are only freed from sin at death, then does not this make death the saviour? Yes[/b], we do allow sin into our lives, but through the Holy Spirit our consciences tell us that we must “confess our sins” so that the faithful and just Lord would “forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness” (1 John 1:9.)

[url=http://www.lwbc.co.uk/Wesley/christian_perfection.htm]John Wesley on Christian Perfection[/url]


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 2008/6/10 15:05Profile
Logic
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Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
Thommy2 wrote:
Logic
With every stroke of the key (during your post) were the thoughts consuming your mind that of perfectly glorifying God in a manner he was worthy of being praised. Was every intention of every stroke that of "God you are so worthy of my adoration and in no way do I care of anything except praising you" Also was your post so absolutley perfect theologically that we (as a body of Christ followers) could not say.."here's a mistake where underlying sin may be the cause of error."

Also the Bible says that "When we SEE Him we will be like Him".....Were you literally gazing into the face of the Glorified Savior while typing this post....has anyone on this earth lived every second of their lives with only Glorifying God in Christ forefront in EVERY thought, with the ability to LITERALLY gaze on the glorified Christ any time they want to? B/C that is what sinless perfection will bring. Adam had the ability to speak with God face to face b/c of sinless perfection....Moses did only when God deemed appropriate, and Moses was killed by God b/c of sin! Paul asks churches to pray that he preaches the Gospel in a worthy matter b/c he was aware of possiblie sin!


Do you with every stroke of the key glorify God in a manner he is worthy of being praised by saying that we can not stop sinning when He showed us how?

Quote:
Is sinless perfection possible........? No...the arrogance that stands behind a brother who would stand up and say "I have not sinned in "x" amount of days" is obvious.

In other words...
Sin can not be helped.
Or
We must sin because we can not stop sinning even as christians.
Or
Since Jesus was as we are, fully human(fully God) with flesh(Rom 8:3), we can not do as He did because HE was never like us(Hebrews 4:15).
[b]1John 4:17[/b] [color=990000]In this is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because [b]as he is, so are we in this world[/b].[/color]

Quote:
Also was your post so absolutley perfect theologically that we (as a body of Christ followers) could not say.."here's a mistake where underlying sin may be the cause of error."

My post could be that you would say, "Hey, I've learned somthing"

Why do you sin?
Is it because you couldn't stop your self?
You are basicaly saying that you can't stop sinning(willfuly, intentionaly disobeying known commands & laws) especialy as a christian?

Is every intention of every stroke that of "God you are so worthy of my adoration and in no way do I care of anything except praising you [b]as you are basicaly say[/b] you have no self control.
You are basicaly saying sin is unintentional.
You are basicaly saying sin is unavoidable.
You are basicaly saying sin isn't chosen to do.


If sin was something you didn't know you are doing, then it is not a sin.
[b]John 9:41[/b] [color=990000]Jesus said unto them, If you were blind, you should have no sin: but now you say, We see; therefore your sin remains.[/color]
[b]John 15:22[/b] [color=990000]If I had not come and spoken unto them, they would not have sin: but now they have no cover for their sin.[/color]
[b]James 4:17[/b] [color=990000]Therefore to him that knows to do good, and does it not, to him it is sin.[/color]
The reciprocal or contrast to this is:
To him that does not know wrong, and does it, to him it is not sin.

Please, re-read my post and if you can refute any of my points, then, please do so and I will consider retracting.

 2008/6/10 15:14Profile









 Re: Wesley Quote:hmmhmm...




Maybe this was Wesleys "a little wine for the stomach" day. To me, it seems like very flawed logic. We are all freed by death in a sense, to fellowship our Savior and God. 1] the freedom on Earth when we are put to death by Jesus's cross that we must bear."We indeed had the sentence of death within ourselves, so that we would not not trust in ourselves, but in God, who raises the dead.



2]..This does not make our cross our Savior any more than it makes His cross our Savior. He is our Savior. The Devils believe in the cross, and they surely know that death exists.



Jesus shed His blood, but that is Eternal Blood, presented by Jesus Himself at the Alter of mercy, today, within the true Holies of Holies.

We are [b]imputed[/b] righteousness as we confess our sins, AND the Father grants forgiveness, as He sees His Children covered by this Holy Blood, and thereby cleansed.


Never is it implied though, that our evil natures will be made holy by this blood. There is a difference. We will all be changed; some upon the entering of Heaven, some in a twinkling of an eye, but until then, only our sin is forgiven, and that by faith.

 2008/6/10 15:33
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
Brothertom wrote:

[b]If sinless perfection were possible, we would never die. We would be in a state as Adam: Heaven on Earth. [/b]

When you find such a person, Please send him or her over here, to Sermonindex. They'll straiten out all this squabbling! ;-)

Sure we would die, we would still be subject to vanity and be under the the bondage of corruption.
God subjected creation to these in hope for the glorious libertation of the children of God waiting for the adoption, that is, the redemption of our body(Rom 8:20-23)

Even though we would [b]stop[/b] sinning would [b]not stop[/b] the currupting(decaying) of our bodies.


And thank you hmmhmm for you contribution.

 2008/6/10 15:46Profile
hmmhmm
Member



Joined: 2006/1/31
Posts: 4991
Sweden

 Re:

We die because of Adams sin, it was through Adam sin entered the world, sin already existed in the angelic realm, but through Adam it entered the creation.

So through one mans sin we all die

Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

A baby can die within minutes after it is born, and they have not sinned.

I recommend brother Rons teachings, not "sinless perfection" but very good coverage of what the word says about sin,

Sin
Part 1; its cause and consequence.
Sin, Part 2; its cure and conquest

[url=http://ncw.biblebase.com/modules/news/article.php?storyid=41]Ron Baily (Sin and its Cure) two part VIDEO[/url]


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CHRISTIAN

 2008/6/10 15:55Profile









 Re:

Paul said the things he wanted to do (righteousness) he did not do... and the things he didnt want to do (sin)... he found himself doing. He went on to explain that there was a war inside of him (all of us) between the fleshly man and the spirit man.

Doesnt sound like even the Apostle Paul reached sinless perfection... why would we ever presume that we could? What arrogance.

Show me a man who claims to be perfectly sinless and I point out his sin of pride.

Krispy

 2008/6/10 16:01





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