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Thommy2
Member



Joined: 2008/6/3
Posts: 60
Wisconsin

 Rap??

http://www.flame314.com/

I was just wondering if people could look at this site and give an honsest opinion. I am not one who believes a style of music is inherently evil. I do understand slapping a "christian" label on things that do not glorify Christ is sick. But sometimes I think we get upset for no reason. I am young (23) and have only been saved for 2 years. When I was first introduced to Christian music I was disgusted by most of it (still am upset by the lack of biblical theology in most "Christian" music). But give this web-site an honest look...listen to Brother Flames sermons, listen to a song or two (maybe read the lyrics), look at what this brother is about, before an opinion is given.

http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=42208121490 - Also here is Paul Washer preaching to a bunch of rappers/rap fans. His opinion does not validate anything if it's contrary to Scripture but Paul is a brother that I believe to be trustworthy and discerning.

Also if a style of music is inherently evil is it revealed in Scripture? Or is this just a matter of opinion? (again just to clarify this is not an issue a defending crap, empty, garbage music with a Christian Label. I understand that is evil. This is regarding someone who really seems to have a great head and a changed heart, preaching while he is rapping.) Also if rap is evil, what other music genres are/are not, and how can we Scripturally say what is right or wrong concerning genre (not content)?


_________________
Thom

 2008/6/6 16:32Profile
JRuth
Member



Joined: 2008/6/1
Posts: 79
Moscow, PA

 Re: Rap??

Here is a site that has a few really good sermons on music...it might be a help!!

http://www.herbsterevangelism.org/Sermons.aspx

Both of these sermons are realy good!!
"What Is Christian Music?"
"God's Philosophy of Music"


_________________
Jessara

 2008/6/6 17:43Profile
TaylorOtwell
Member



Joined: 2006/6/19
Posts: 927
Arkansas

 Re: Rap??

I am really familiar with Christian rap and have listened to rappers like Flame, shai linne, Truth, etc.

I think their message is great!

However, I have had some concerns, and they are not really related to the style of music.

I am concerned that in our culture as a whole, very serious things are presented as entertainment, which seems to lower the seriousness and sobriety of the thing presented. I have had some fears that this may be the case with Christian rap.

Often, I don't think the beat really matches the weightiness of the content. Shai linne even made a good comment about this regarding his new CD "The Atonement". He said that you don't play the birthday song at a funeral. He was explaining why he picked such weighty sounding beats to go with his lyrics.

So, FOR ME (notice I am saying this about me personally), I have begun to notice that Christian rap doesn't really promote the kind of clear, serious thinking I want to do about spiritual things. Now, FOR YOU, it may do that. I don't think anyone can make a case Biblically that different styles of music are evil and some are good. However, I agree with the idea that certain styles of music can begin to effect our moods and attitudes, and some moods and attitudes are not wise for a Christian to partake of. Therefore, if the kind of music promotes one of those attitudes, it may be best to put that music aside.

Hopefully that was a balanced answer. :-)


_________________
Taylor Otwell

 2008/6/6 19:06Profile









 Re: RAP & CCM

Ques. What should we think of contemporary Christian music (CCM)?

CCM includes Christian rock music, Christian rap music, and Christian “pop” music.

The CCM issue is clearly one of criteria— what criteria should we use to assess music?

What rule or standard or yardstick should we use to measure or evaluate CCM?

Two well-known contemporary Christian musicians have offered their opinion on this “criteria” issue:

“Basically you have to focus on the lyrics, and what the song is saying. That is my criteria to decide whether the song is right or wrong. It has nothing to do with the music style. It has to do with the lyrics. What is the song saying? What are the words saying? As Christians, we can objectively judge it from that standpoint.”

“Music is a very powerful force. It has a way of breaking down barriers....But a lot of artists are taking that very powerful tool and putting negative, horrible lyrics to it, and those lyrics are getting into the hearts of the listeners and are shaping their values....Why can’t we [i.e., contemporary Christian musicians] take that same powerful force — music — put positive lyrics to it and begin shaping values that way?”

If these two are right, then CCM is more than just okay—it is a powerful spiritual weapon that we must use.

I believe, however, that both are wrong. First, they ignore the fact that God’s Word offers criteria for evaluating music that is different from theirs. Second, they both assume (and this is an important word) that we must evaluate music solely on the basis of its lyrics. They assume that the music itself apart from the lyrics is morally neutral, or that the music itself apart from the lyrics communicates no message. These are false assumptions. Tunes or melodies communicate messages regardless of lyrics (or, to put it another way, there is always a message implicit in the music). Bad music that contains “good” lyrics still transmits a bad message.

Many CCM advocates may be well-intentioned and may sincerely think that they are doing what is right. Of course, good intentions and sincerity are no guarantees that one is right. And it would be a foolish thing indeed if we blindly assume that any who make such claims are mature spiritually, or if we assume that CCM is okay simply because we like it.

I. Criteria For Evaluating Contemporary Christian Music

A. Philippians 4:8: Finally, brethren, whatever things are true (or represent truth), whatever things are noble, whatever things are just (or right), whatever things are pure (or untainted by sin), whatever things are lovely, whatever things are of good report (or good reputation), if there is any virtue (or moral excellence) and if there is anything praiseworthy— meditate (or think) on these things.

This verse obviously applies to music because music is something that we meditate on or allow our minds to dwell upon. Philippians 4:8 clearly has much to say about a song’s lyrics. All people — even CCM advocates agree that a song’s words must be true, noble, morally excellent, and worthy of praise if that song is to be acceptable.

But Philippians 4:8 also says, good music must be of good report (the New American Standard Bible provides the literal translation “of good repute”). In other words, good music must be of a good reputation, or be wholly disassociated with things that are wrong or contrary to God. If something is okay in itself but it is strongly linked to or associated with something else that is evil, then that thing has a bad reputation. It has a bad report. This is a principle that we all accept. Example: Do you think it is okay for me to go into a store and buy a Coca-Cola? Yes. But do you think it is okay for me to go into a bar or a saloon and buy a Coca-Cola? Even though buying a Coca-Cola is obviously okay, when I buy one in a bar I associate that Coca-Cola (and myself) with things that are evil. It would not be right for me to go into a bar and buy a Coca-Cola because wicked things have given my innocent act a bad reputation or a bad report. Philippians 4:8, then, says that your music must be associated only with good or righteous things. Your music cannot resemble or be linked to things that are evil. If your music is identified with music that is evil or wrong, then your music is not of good report.

Clearly CCM is linked to secular rock, rap, and pop music. Indeed, CCM advocates consciously try to “cross over” and appeal to non-Christian audiences by making their music sound just like that of non- Christians. Many CCM performers dress just like secular musicians. Many male CCM performers go so far as to wear earrings, while some female CCM performers wear clothing that is by any definition immodest.

No one will deny that secular rock and rap music has a bad reputation. Is CCM linked to or associated with secular rock music? Is it sometimes hard to tell the difference between CCM and secular rock music? Do most people see a connection or a similarity between CCM and secular pop music? The answer to these questions, I think, is yes— which means that CCM is not of good repute and therefore does not pass the Philippians 4:8 test.

B. Philippians 4:8 also says, good music must be pure. This means that good music can not have bad stuff mixed in with it. Music that is 95% good and 5% bad is not pure. Good music, then, must be completely free from contamination or pollution. Does this seem unnecessarily strict? If so, it is only because you don’t realize how important your “thought life” is to God. Because your thoughts shape your character, God is very concerned with (and very strict about) what you set your mind upon. That is why your music must be pure. The Bible says that the world taints and makes impure (James 1:27; 2 Peter 2:20). In other words, when worldly things are mixed with or introduced into something, impurity results. Is CCM worldly? Does CCM liberally borrow from the world and adopt the world’s practices? The answer, I think, is obvious. This is serious. Romans 12:2 says “be not conformed to this world, but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind.” (Compare Ephesians 4:23 and 1 John 2:15-17.) This means that God commands us to not live like everyone else. Our lifestyle cannot match up to or be similar to that of other people. If a kind of music sounds like the world’s music, looks like the world’s music, and is marketed like the world’s music, then that music is worldly (what else could “worldly” mean?). Worldly music is impure music.
Is CCM worldly music?

Rolling Stone magazine said of one such 'christian' band, “The band looks and sounds like a bunch of standard-issue hard rockers: polished, guitar-dominated music, shaggy long hair and a flashy stage show.”

Rolling Stone magazine also said this about another 'christian' "performer", “Regarding her album covers and publicity photos, which portray her as a sexy, attractive young woman, the Christian pop star says, ‘I’m trying to look sexy to sell a record....I feel like a Christian young woman is very sexual.”

The Saturday Evening Post wrote of another 'christian' "performer", “One of the reasons they attract the adulation of young fans is their thoroughly modern look, sound and style.”

Time magazine wrote that CCM performers are “indistinguishable — except for their lyrics — from their secular counterparts.”

The above few(there are many) testimonies reveal that even non-Christians recognize that CCM is worldly music. Worldly music is not pure music. Impure music fails the Philippians 4:8 test.

This issue of purity is actually a much larger issue. Yet, some people would argue that it doesn’t matter how you reach people with God’s truth just so long as you reach them. Any method of proclaiming God’s Word is valid, these people say, so long as it works. They are really saying that the end justifies the means— which is a sinister and dangerous principle. Indeed, the Catholic Church adopted this strategy around 300 A.D. with regard to pagan rites and celebrations. Rather than telling their converts that they had to give up their false religions, their idols, their holy days, and their superstitious beliefs, the Catholic Church “christianized” those pagan things and allowed them to remain. This is why the Catholic Church began to worship saints, instituted hundreds of unscriptural (and sometimes demonic) holy days, and developed elaborate ceremonial rituals. Instead of remaining pure and separate from the world, the Catholic Church tried to “baptize” worldly things and then retain them.

We see where this unscriptural strategy took the Catholic Church. CCM does much the same thing. Instead of rejecting worldly music, CCM tries to “christianize” it. A non-Christian scholar and a defender of secular rock music, made this illuminating comment concerning CCM’s attempt to use secular musical forms for Christian purposes:

“Some dreamers have hoped to harness rock to propagate the values of transcendent ideologies. Populist Catholics sponsor rock masses, trendy educators produce textbooks using rock lyrics as a vehicle for inculcating traditional values, various Protestant denominations commandeer the airwaves on Sunday mornings to broadcast uplifting advice larded with rock songs to make the message palatable to young ears...But rock is useless to teach any transcendent value. The instigators of these projects merely promote the pagan rites they hope to co-opt. Rock’s electricity as much as its pantheistic heritage gives the lie to whatever enlightened propaganda may be foisted on it.”

I agree that CCM performers only “promote the pagan rites they hope to coopt.” The musical medium has a distorting influence on the message.

A prominent CCM performer agrees,he admits that “Some art forms have been created to express certain philosophies and are so wedded to those philosophies that they convey that kind of outlook....We can’t assume that we simply plug in a Christian message, and everything will be okay.”

Rock and rap music are so wedded to secular, godless themes that they communicate that outlook regardless of the song’s words.

C. Philippians 4:8 says that music must be morally excellent, noble or something that you could be proud of, and so beneficial that it is worthy of praise. Many assume that this only applies to the lyrics of a song. They imply that a song’s music (i.e., the sound only) does not communicate a message. Is this true? No. A song’s music — regardless of the lyrics — does communicate a message. Many doctors, researchers, and musicians — many of them not Christians — agreed that a song’s music does communicate a message regardless of the words.

One such Doctor writes, “Music is the most powerful stimulus known among the perceptive senses. The medical, psychiatric and other evidence for the non- neutrality of music is so overwhelming that it frankly amazes me that anyone should seriously say otherwise.”

Another a non-Christian sociologist writes that “Rock is communication without words, regardless of what ideology is inserted into the music.”

Another says that “The words only let you know what the music already says....The music has its own message.” The primary message of CCM lies in its music, not in its lyrics.

If all music (regardless of the lyrics) has a message, then what is the message communicated by the music of CCM? If nearly all of the effects produced by contemporary music’s beat, repetition, and loudness are negative and is mildly hypnotic and can become addictive then the same is true to a degree with CCM. Such music produces chemical reactions in your body that encourage aggressive and emotional behavior. Those same physiological reactions prevent you from thinking and judging rationally. By the same token, contemporary music’s beat, repetition, and loudness unmistakably convey a mood of defiance, rebelliousness, aggressiveness, and self-assertiveness. Clearly these effects are neither “morally excellent” nor “noble” nor “praiseworthy.” Bad music, regardless of comparatively “good” lyrics, communicates a bad message.

How is it that music can affect me? The music itself, regardless of the words, affects your emotions. Even if there are no words to a song or a tune, it affects you. Everybody knows this. Lullabies put babies to sleep regardless of the words. National anthems can at times create feelings of pride or move listeners to tears. Some of the most powerful music ever written — like Beethoven and Wagner — contained no words. Ask any young person why they like rock music and they always say something about the beat or tempo. They are admitting that, regardless of the words, the music itself is quite powerful.
This is important. It means that “good” words does not make something good music. Regardless of the "good" lyrics, the musical score itself has an impact on the listener. Assessing music as good or bad or acceptable or unacceptable, is not simply a matter of evaluating the words. You must evaluate the tune also, because the sounds themselves affect you.

D. Philippians 4:8 says that your music must not only be “not bad,” but that it must be positively good. In other words, it is not enough for the music to be free of evil— the music must strongly communicate a positive message. Is it true that CCM’s lyrics are positively good? Most CCM, it is true, does not contain profanity, does not talk about sex, and does not glorify violence. But do these songs express deep, meaningful spiritual truths (such as you read in old Isaac Watts hymns)? Does CCM teach good, solid theology? Doesn’t CCM usually express a light, flippant, and shallow view of Christianity?

“Many singers,” writes Christianity Today, “have softened their Christian message in an effort to ‘cross over’ into the secular marketplace. But many now say this practice has damaged their credibility with Christian audiences while blunting their impact on secular customers.”

While it is true that CCM’s lyrics are not filthy, vulgar, or wicked, neither are they positively good. Most CCM lyrics — especially “Christian rap” — contains a weak message or no message at all. At best, these songs encourage a superficial and flippant understanding of spiritual things. At worst, listeners simply ignore the empty lyrics and allow the sensual, rebellious music to influence them.

E. “Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom which cannot be shaken, let us have grace, by which we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear. For our God is a consuming fire.” (Hebrews 12:28-29) Many, many times we are exhorted by Scripture to fear God and to have reverence for Him. How does this relate to music? If I really fear God, if I really am overwhelmed by His holiness and dignity, if I have great respect for God’s dignity, if I am truly zealous for His Name and His glory, then I will make sure that my music is appropriate for glorifying God. Not only must the words be appropriate for the glorifying of God, but the sound or melody must befit the majesty, the purity, and the holiness of God.

Is this music — both words and melody — suitable for glorifying God?
Does this music — both words and melody — cheapen divine things or trivialize spiritual truth? Does this music encourage a non-serious or frivolous view of religion? Might it lead a listener to think that God is Someone that you can play games with or treat lightly?
Does this music — both words and melody — handle sacred truth in a sacred way? Is the music compatible with or complementary of the sacred things of which it claims to speak?

If this music bears Christ’s name (as CCM does), then does it — both words and melody — also bear the marks of Christ’s character? Does this music reflect His holiness, His righteousness, His purity, and His majesty? CCM fails here. It is not a suitable medium for glorifying God. CCM cheapens spiritual truth and encourages irreverent attitudes toward God. Even in songs where the words are okay or even good, CCM employs a type of music or sound that is not appropriate for worshipping God. The sound of CCM is, at very least, casual and worldly.

I realize that this concern may make little sense to some. We have, unfortunately, grown up in a generation that doesn’t understand what it means to fear God. We have no sense of God’s holiness. We play with sacred things flippantly. We rarely tremble at the fact that our God is a consuming fire. Incredibly, we think that if something is good enough for us, then it must be good enough for God. But Hebrews 12:28-29 merely alludes to something that is suggested over and over in the Bible: God is so holy that many things, actions, or attitudes are simply not appropriate before Him. If you have low views of God’s holiness, then you won’t appreciate my concerns here. But the more you appreciate God’s sacredness, the more you will be concerned about the appropriateness of your music.

A former CCM performer wrote, "For three years I sat under the sound of biblical teaching and those years revolutionized my life. Very soon I learned what the gospel was, and as soon as I did so doubts arose in my mind as to the suitability of rock as a medium for the gospel....When I saw the seriousness of the gospel I saw the paradox of using a non-serious medium to try to convey it." The musician realized that his “Christian music,” despite his good intentions, actually communicated a non-serious attitude.

II. Other Questions To Ask About Contemporary Christian Music

A. When you listen to CCM, what effect does it have on you? What happens when you listen to it? Do you find yourself worshipping God in spirit and in truth? Do you begin thinking about Bible verses or Scriptural truths? Do you think about God? Are you convicted of sins and failings in your life?
Or do you get pumped up? Do you get psyched? Do you simply start “feeling good”? Do you start playing “air guitar” or “air drums”? Do you feel like getting rowdy?
If you listen to CCM because it produces the second effect, then that should tell you that your music is dangerous. Your music is not glorifying God.

B. Who is it that is always defending CCM? Who is most vocal in arguing that CCM is actually good? Aren’t CCM’s primary defenders a) the unsaved; b) teenagers who, if they are Christians, must certainly be babes in Christ; or c) people who have only a questionable claim to being Christian? I’m struck by how practically no spiritually mature men rally to the defense of contemporary Christian music. In other words, it is the spiritually weak that argue that CCM is good.

CCM tends to make songwriters and performers our spiritual leaders. By listening to their songs, we are shaped by their music. Are CCM composers and performers qualified to be our spiritual leaders? Does the fact that someone can put words to rhyme or possesses a good voice necessarily mean that they are qualified to teach us spiritually? Certainly this is a frightening phenomenon. At the same time when young people increasingly ignore preaching and pastoral counseling and often find biblical teaching boring — they flock to CCM as their source of spiritual nourishment. Little surprise that our children are not saved, and know so little about the great doctrines of our faith?

III. How Can You Tell If A Piece of Music Is Acceptable or Not?

Where do you “draw the line”?
Based upon the discussion above, and relying heavily on Philippians 4:8, I come up with the following “yardstick”:
1. Good music must have good lyrics. Lyrics must not only be not bad; they must be positively good (i.e., pass the Philippians 4:8 test).
2. Good music must have a good sound. The sound or tune itself can not be conducive of irrational thinking, aggression, or impulsiveness. Nor can the sound communicate a rebellious or defiant mood.
3. Good music cannot be associated with or linked to negative or questionable things. Good music must be pure. Good music cannot be worldly.
4. a) If music claims to be Christian, then (in addition to the above points) it must be music that befits God’s majesty. Christian music must be sober and reverential. Christian music must exemplify or display Christ’s character. b) If music does not claim to communicate a spiritual message (e.g., orchestral music), then (in addition to the above points) that music must be refined, balanced, sublime or subtle, and tranquil.

My conclusion is that much, if not all, of what is today called contemporary Christian music fails to measure up to this yardstick.

(received by e-mail)

 2008/6/7 0:22
BenK
Member



Joined: 2006/12/17
Posts: 49
Harrisburg PA

 Re:

Hi Thommy2

These theologically rich, Jesus Christ glorifying rappers like Flame, Shai Linee, Lacrae, 116 Clique ,etc...are an amazing blessing. Alot of these guys are street evangelists and open air preachers in their "spare" time. I have been brought to tears at times by the glorious vision of Jesus that they place before me, and convicted by their example of study of the scriptures and passion for the lost.

Wise Virgin said:
"When you listen to CCM, what effect does it have on you? What happens when you listen to it? Do you find yourself worshipping God in spirit and in truth? Do you begin thinking about Bible verses or Scriptural truths? Do you think about God? Are you convicted of sins and failings in your life?"

When I listen to these rappers, I most definitely do.


_________________
Benjamin Kreps

 2008/6/7 6:32Profile
JRuth
Member



Joined: 2008/6/1
Posts: 79
Moscow, PA

 Re:

I think what wisevirgin said is right

Quote:
I believe, however, that both are wrong. First, they ignore the fact that God’s Word offers criteria for evaluating music that is different from theirs. Second, they both assume (and this is an important word) that we must evaluate music solely on the basis of its lyrics. They assume that the music itself apart from the lyrics is morally neutral, or that the music itself apart from the lyrics communicates no message. These are false assumptions. Tunes or melodies communicate messages regardless of lyrics (or, to put it another way, there is always a message implicit in the music). Bad music that contains “good” lyrics still transmits a bad message.


Amen brother!!

Thommy2, I gave a link to some sermons that I think will help, IF you only would listen to them!!!


_________________
Jessara

 2008/6/7 9:56Profile
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: Soul - Music

A very good article and was glad to see this component keyed in on;

[i]If all music (regardless of the lyrics) has a message, then what is the message communicated by the music of CCM? If nearly all of the effects produced by contemporary music’s beat, repetition, and loudness are negative and is mildly hypnotic and can become addictive then the same is true to a degree with CCM. Such music produces chemical reactions in your body that encourage aggressive and emotional behavior. Those same physiological reactions prevent you from thinking and judging rationally. By the same token, contemporary music’s beat, repetition, and loudness unmistakably convey a mood of defiance, rebelliousness, aggressiveness, and self-assertiveness. Clearly these effects are neither “morally excellent” nor “noble” nor “praiseworthy.” Bad music, regardless of comparatively “good” lyrics, communicates a bad message.

How is it that music can affect me? The music itself, regardless of the words, affects your emotions. Even if there are no words to a song or a tune, it affects you. Everybody knows this. Lullabies put babies to sleep regardless of the words. National anthems can at times create feelings of pride or move listeners to tears. Some of the most powerful music ever written — like Beethoven and Wagner — contained no words. Ask any young person why they like rock music and they always say something about the beat or tempo. They are admitting that, regardless of the words, the music itself is quite powerful.

This is important. It means that “good” words does not make something good music. Regardless of the "good" lyrics, the musical score itself has an impact on the listener. Assessing music as good or bad or acceptable or unacceptable, is not simply a matter of evaluating the words. You must evaluate the tune also, because the sounds themselves affect you.[/i]

Have lost track of how many replies I have stored away whenever this subject is broached. It is very close to me in the sense that for years my whole life was geared around music and my goal in life was to become a musician professionally, a guitar players - guitar player and a 'rock star'. It is a somewhat difficult subject to express rightly from my perspective ...

Probably one of the things that bothers the most to be frank about it is some of the religious outcry from a variety of even good preachers and most not so good pontificating upon the evils of rock music\rap music what have you when they begin extrapolating over it without really having any knowledge of what they are taking about. It is a lot of speculation made fact, it is 'demonic' where it really is just soulish, it is too often exaggerated and made pragmatic to furnish or feed a point. It is the mix of dishonesty with right concern that doesn't need the embellishments. much more could be said.

Recognize this is geared more towards CCM and to be again honest think I have less of a problem with the 'worlds' music in the sense that "they know not what they do" or they are more correctly doing what all of us ever did (1Co 6:11) [i]And such were some of you:[/i] before we were [i]washed,... sanctified, ...justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God[/i]. Think there is often more sheer honesty in the secular than in the parroting or "Christianizing" that goes on in CCM.

During all those years spent involved and dedicated to this pursuit of grandeur I was also of the exacting emphasis on the opposite, that it [i]wasn't the lyrics[/i] but the music, the notes and chords, the musicianship, that the lyrics were secondary though not without import. It puts me in a bit of a predicament now when I must confess that it was a lyric itself from the guitar player of the notorious 'devil' himself, Ozzy Osbourne that finally broke me into repentance, it's part and parcel of my testimony that can be found here ...

All this backdrop only to say this ... The out takes from the article above I think are a key understanding that is too often overlooked. In a word it is manipulation. Music is manipulative in a variety of ways. It is often quite abused especially in Christianity, I am just now thinking of Benny Hinn and his use of playing the "Hallelujah" chorus over and over again (if you have ever been in one of his meetings) it's a conditioning like it or not, a manipulation playing upon the emotions in it's endless repetition, hypnotic, trance like.

Because of my entrenchment and constant piped in music ... I never went anywhere without a Walk-man, it was as much part of my dress as putting on your socks ... any car I ever owned always had a minimum of 6 speakers, amplifiers, equalizers ... I could go on and on with details. Always 'jamming' with our band, after school on weekends ... stereo on constantly, the collection of records had to be upwards of 750 and was constantly making and mixing new tapes ...

Then all of a sudden it just kind of stopped. Must put it that way because I don't know where that point really was. When the Lord arrested me for good things began to ... fall off by degree's. Some were instantaneous, cursing for instance, not by deliberate effort but by that backward notice later on down the line. The music I kept at in the same manner for a long time, interspersing the various CCM products here and there, most of what I found pretty shallow and of poor musicality to be honest. Was already a big Styrper fan for years prior in my confused searching after God, they were an important part in leading me up to and into the Light at last, even if so many years later.

I must stress that hardly a fraction of any of this ultimate leaving off of music was deliberate, I had heard and been bombarded with the Moral Majority, with a nagging brother who used to follow me around to 'witness' at and to me ... all the arguments, all the "devil's music", all the people telling me about bands that I knew so well, had read about and listened to their interviews, everything I could get my hands on, it just fell on deaf ears, they didn't know the first thing they were talking about.

It was hindsight that I recognized that I just couldn't allow my spirit to be played around with like a rag doll any longer. I had already left off unaware before this recognition came about. I didn't like being manipulated emotionally and uncontrollably even if I had given myself to it. It was no different than the drugs that were all part and parcel and combined into it. Could well go into all that as well, there is a demonic element to be sure that you open yourself up into by allowing something, someone else to conduct your thinking for you ... but that is another subject entirely.

This soulish aspect needs more scrutiny I believe. It is unfortunate that the argument almost always goes in a tit-for-tat momentum when discussing music, the lyrics or the music -ignore one or the other, defend one or the other, argue one or the other. Legalism comes into play as well as conscience and perhaps even development along the way, growth and learning the knowledge of the Lord. "Others may but you cannot" the great article that has been posted here frequently ... I could no more press my experience or convictions upon another than anyone else, just the concern over this over looking of what we might allow ourselves to be manipulated by. The things we put into our ears and those that we allow our eyes to gaze upon, the tweaking of our spirits, the soulish appeal, that lower nature aspect ... It is often very subtle these things that condition and tweak with our minds, body, soul, spirit.


_________________
Mike Balog

 2008/6/7 10:29Profile
ginnyrose
Member



Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7463
Mississippi

 Re: Rap??

Thommy2,

I have a question for you: is there a possibility the Holy Spirit is working to teach you something in this area of music but you want to get others' opinions on it [i]first[/i] before you make a decision? It has been my experience in life that the HS's method of teaching me something usually begins with questioning whether something "is right?" Initially, I will disregard the question but am learning to take these seriously now....

Just something to consider...

BTW, you did get some good responses to your question.

Blessings,
ginnyrose


_________________
Sandra Miller

 2008/6/7 12:05Profile
Compton
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 2732


 Re:

I can't see a strict formula or set of rules on this issue. (edit: I am thankful to have recently discovered [url=http://www.bluefishtv.com/ProductDetails.aspx?cid=1005&id=1843&f=s1m&cc=&csc=&ldr=&s=amena%20brown]Amena Brown's poetry[/url].) Still, there might be a side issue here to review... the way anything that is considered 'street relevant' gets a blank charter. If we are concerned about the message of our music, some artistic, if not common sense, might be in order.

Quote:
A prominent CCM performer agrees,he admits that “Some art forms have been created to express certain philosophies and are so wedded to those philosophies that they convey that kind of outlook....We can’t assume that we simply plug in a Christian message, and everything will be okay.”



For myself regarding this topic, I am reminded of the insight by the secular writer Marshall McLuhan who observed that in today's culture, "The medium is the message." His point here is that the message you are trying to deliver to people is greatly influenced, or even overshadowed by the delivery system.

Much noise is made over the street relevancy of rap. I can certainly understand this, however I do think we need to be careful with this logic.
Cultural relevancy in the church has become a magic carpet ride to go anywhere and do anything.

(edit)There is no formula I know of to make this issue clear cut. However, it seems clear cut to me that some music styles function as a cultural message overshadowing any rhetorical message they may contain. We notice that in popular music, while the singers are giving demonstrations and instructions about fornication, greed, or violence, they use a particular musical vocabulary. Now if we use that same musical vocabulary to try and deliver the Gospel message, we run the risk that the medium will obliterate the message.

So, while being concerned for the world, we should gaurd against too many sophistic arguments on cultural relevancy. Today we could fill the Grand Canyon with religous books bloviating on and on about how to be 'authentic' to our culture.

Only desire to be simple and pure hearted...and we will be authentic. Music cannot achieve this for us. Never let our love for Christ be suppressed or muted in our heart or conscience. Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. The irreducible heart of the Gospel is being replaced with the humanistic idolatry of seeker-sensitivity, all under the banner of 'love' for your neighbour. The question for me is where does the my love for the lost begin...from my heart or from God's heart? If we neglect the heart of our First Love, how can we be sure we really serve others with that love and not with our own self-interest? These are especially convicting and challenging words to myself brother.

These are just my opinions,

MC


_________________
Mike Compton

 2008/6/7 14:42Profile
Thommy2
Member



Joined: 2008/6/3
Posts: 60
Wisconsin

 Re:

Hey Everyone!! Hope y'all had a great weekend.

I have not yet listened to the sermons and will do so at some point today. There was a lot posted and I thank you for taking the time to post on my inquiry. Two main points beamed through while I was reading
1. The beat/style/genre is or can be related to worldly things
2. The feelings the music can produce

Well just some quik q's
1. I love hymns...Holy, Holy, Holy,..Blessed assurance, How Great Thou Art, Doxology.....here's a problem...3 of the 4 mentioned above are regularly sang in Roman Catholic Churchs. Now if I can relate a hymn to an EVIL place...should I throw it away? My fiance hates when we sing certain hymns in our church b/c she grew up Catholic and when she hears them it reminds her of the evil that was in her church. Also I was not around when hymns started (again only 23) but when they did start were there pagan religions that used the same beats and riffs? So if Christian Rap is evil now will it out grow this evil and eventually become the new hymns? Is our view of music culturally moved and not biblically moved...? Also in other countries would we consider their style of worship evil b/c of the instruments or the sounds they produce? Again CULTURAL or BIBLICAL.
(Also someone had a analogy of a soda in a shop or a soda in a bar....How about a Rabbi with prostitutes. If being seen in an evil place makes on evil...?)
2. Feelings the music produces...any and everything produces feelings. Football games (huge Packer fan) the zoo, kissing, praying, working, etc. all create feelings. You hear the beginning of "It is well" and you are affected. You hear the theme song of Gilligans Island and it brings back feelings and memories. God created us to "feel". If we are using feelings to create a "spiritual experience" that's obviously not proper, but God did create us to experience, and it's not evil to feel. The very fact that Christ touched and was moved with compassion shows feelings can be a gift from God. So to say a certain kind of music makes someone feel is an extemely unbiblical defense.
(also again I am not defending music that does not bring biblically rich lyrics to their music)


Well God Bless and I'll give those sermons a listen.
Thommy

Also so i do not have to start a new thread.
I am getting married July 12th and would just like prayer THANKS


_________________
Thom

 2008/6/9 10:09Profile





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