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Discussion Forum : General Topics : CHARISMA QUESTIONS AGAIN!! -Lakeland Revival

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RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

I found the clip MC is talking about and it is horrifying. The glib way he tells the story is shocking; 25 demons cast out of him, cursing people he loved and tearing down the house speaking in another voice. It took 8 people to hold him down? Writhing like a snake on the floor. He admits to having been involved in the occult, satanic worship and all kind of 'crazy stuff'. He used to beat his mother, but repented on his wedding day. he tries to say a demon beat his mother and broke her arm- but he was blamed for it. If you care to know it is Google keywords Todd Bentley - possed (it is misspelled on the site).



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Robert Wurtz II

 2008/6/5 22:41Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

I want to add an additional comment here and say categorically that God does not share the Temple of the Holy Spirit with Demons. To suggest such is to border on blasphemy. It is one thing to say a believer can be oppressed by demons and a whole different thing to say a Spirit filled believer can be possessed by 25 demons and then manifest those demons.

[color=000066]No one can go into a strong man's house and carry off his possessions without first tying up the strong man. Then he can ransack his house. (Mark 3:27 ISV)[/color]

To suggest that the Holy Spirit was unable to drive those demons from the man at salvation and Baptism in the Holy Spirit or was willing to share the Temple with devils is utterly blasphemy. Hath not God commanded us that we cannot be partakers of the Table of Christ and the Table of devils? How much more would God had driven out the demons from a man as Jesus overthrew the tables of the moneychangers? Would God share a Temple with Baal or Molech? What about 25 Baal's, Asteroth's or Molech's?

This is nothing more than an exaltation of demonic powers and a gross undermining of what God accomplishes with the New Birth. if a person has passed from death to life and from the power of Satan to the power of God- wherein are all these demons manifesting in this man? This is blasphemous falsehood that storms the foundations of Truth from the gates of hell. Stand fast my brethren! Be BOLD and of GOOD COURAGE! Do not fear their miracles or lying signs and wonders. Be not deceived- for you will know them by their fruits!


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2008/6/6 9:59Profile
Fuegodedios
Member



Joined: 2007/2/21
Posts: 220
Richmond, VA

 Re:

One of the shocking things to me is when I hear people say all the time I have seen an angel or I have seen God( I believe people can encounter God but the results that are present day are not biblical). when you read Isaiah 6, Act 9 or the opening passages of the book of revelation and ezekiel chapter one. You will see a totally different result from what we see in a lot of modern day christians today. John, paul, Ezekiel, and Isaiah were broken.John, to such and extent that he fell down like he was dead and saul became paul God changes a man when he meet true authority his ego pride and self life are destroyed and utterly broken. what about Job when he saw God he said.

I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee.
Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes. Job 42.

You don't see this with some of the so called signs and wonders guys these days there is a lack of the fear of God a lack of holiness and devotion to christ.they are like little boys and girls playing marbles with Gods diamonds.

When people start to talk about seeing God or having some kind of supernatural revelation. It always amazes me that they do not have that brokeness and humility that was manafested in the old prophets and apostles. The whole experience is focused on one individual. This is one reason I know something is fishy when these things are not christ centered but man centered and focused on one man or woman. because of it everyone runs behind that one individual and says hey this is the next big revival this is Gods next prophet of the hour. Can God manifest himself yes, can God open our eyes to the spirit realm yes. But, when it is man, centered angel centered without a biblical foundation and selfish I doubt that God is moving at all. a few points I use when dealing with these things are

John 12:32
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

If jesus is really the focus of a manifestation he will be lifed not men. if men are lifted then folks will follow the man and not christ.

John 16:13-14
Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

If there is a move of the spirit he will Glorifiy Jesus. him crucified, buried, and resurrected. He will convict us of sin and sanctify us according to truth John 17:17 because he is the spirit of truth.

Also if it is a move of the spirit the (holy spirit) Holiness would be the result of such things because his name expresses one of his major functions and that is to make anything that associates with him Holy. for a believer to say they are demon possesed is crazy my God help us. I would be questioning myself "well is this person really saved"?

Brothers I did not say all of that with a nasty spirit just out of concern.



:-)


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Demetrius

 2008/6/6 11:57Profile









 Re:

Fuegodedios... that was awesome. Amen!

Krispy

 2008/6/6 12:22









 Re: CHARISMA QUESTIONS AGAIN!! -Lakeland Revival


We need a "Counsels of seasoned Elders" from "both camps", as much as we need our eyes gouged out with a red hot poker.

Both of these "camps" are contending for VALID BIBLICAL TRUTHS?

This is demagoguery at it's heights. Maybe [i]his[/i] camp is divided, but not the Lord's. Bentley's anointed by Demons, and for the record, this move has to do with lying prophets; lets not mix in the holy prophetic.

Contending for Biblical Truth???? Are you out of your mind? you mean contending for control, not truth. If you [Lee Grady] cannot see the embracing of the Demonic experience here, and want to moderate how much poison the true church should swallow, all in the name of unity, have at it. your reward will be the same as theirs. That is the one given to false prophets and deceivers.

This is the same guy who honors Benny Hinn, and all of these wolves, and has for decades. He's in bed with them![pardon the comparison, considering the foulness of those he wants to compromise with.]

The charismatic movement began, and has it's roots in the "Renewal" movement of the late 60s, when Catholics were received into mainstream Pentecostal and "Spirit Filled " churches[ unrepentant Mary and Pope worshippers] Charisma magazine , I believe, is simply an arm embracing this unholy plethora of doctrines, advocating experience as a validation of true Faith.

To me, Charisma magazine is irrelevant and useless. A tool of "Ecumenalism." that espouses unity without holy and true doctrine. It is not surprising to see this type of appeal emerge from this worldly and corrupt rag.

He endorsed, flip-flopped; endorsed flip- flopped...why? If this Bentley thing grows as it could, you had better be on it's side' if you want big circulation.

Grady is a successful editor of a religious, and probably Catholic magazine, but has zero authority to call for any thing to do with the true church, and its commission. He is irrelevant.

"What the church held sacred for 2000 years, holy doctrine, was vandalized in one generation by the Charismatic Ecumenical [all embracing], Renewal." CLAYT SONMORE....There- by.."Charisma'

 2008/6/6 12:49









 Re:

Amen Brother!

 2008/6/6 13:01
Fuegodedios
Member



Joined: 2007/2/21
Posts: 220
Richmond, VA

 Re:

That's blessed brothertom


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Demetrius

 2008/6/6 13:23Profile
hmmhmm
Member



Joined: 2006/1/31
Posts: 4991
Sweden

 Re:

Im more and more becoming certain people are not deceived, there just not saved.

No person can follow this man and have the Holy Spirit of God dwelling inside them.

As all of Israel bowed to the golden statue Nebuchadnezzar had made, so many christians bow to things like this.

Of all Gods chosen people, his children, Four did not bow if we include Daniel.

of hundreds of thousands believers, four did not bow.

I think the % is about the same today.


Col 2:18 [b]Let no man beguile you[/b] of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,


Gal 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
Gal 1:7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
Gal 1:8 But though we, [b]or an angel from heaven[/b], preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, [b]let him be accursed.[/b]


These people are accursed, and God lets them be accursed and allows them to follow this man/movement.

For those who have their doubts, i warn you to get away from this, God says in his word that if any man continues to follow such things this will be the result

2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2Th 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.


These times are here

2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.



The temple is gone, the church is here, right now we have men "preaching" and opposeth and exalthet themself and their words above God and all that is written.

Flee


_________________
CHRISTIAN

 2008/6/6 13:41Profile









 Re:

Agreed Brothertom. And just who are the 'elders' that he is talking of? Perhaps Grady should look at character more than doctrine. As he states:

"When I wrote an article in mid-May calling for scrutiny of some
aspects of the Lakeland Revival, I was labeled a Pharisee and a
“religious policeman.” People who said they had been deeply
impacted by the Holy Spirit in Lakeland used spiritual threats and
harsh terms to tell me that I had become the enemy.

"I refuse to go on the defensive, and if I need to retract any
statement I’ve ever made about this revival I will. But what these
nasty exchanges have shown me is that a divisive spirit is certainly
at work in our midst—and we need urgent prayer to short-circuit
what the devil wants to do."

It seems many things are blamed on a 'spirit'. I don't know what was written or if he got as many nasty mails from critics of this movement but the character of the e-mail represents the character of the person. And it sounds like the character is lacking in good fruit. But Grady seemingly dismisses this and goes straight to what I think is an administrative solution to a spiritual problem.

As a frequent critic of this false movement(though I've never e-mailed Grady), I'm not 'contending' for Biblical truth....either I have it or I do not. God's truth is unwavering so I'm not (nor can I) trying to convince God to see things my way. Therefore any contention of truth will not be arbitrated by man, neither from the least nor the greatest. Jesus will divide the sheep and the goats, that's not our job. And it will be done with perfect justice. Whether or not I have the necessary discernment to rightly divide scripture has nothing to do with how well I debate or contend for the truth....but has everything to do with how much time I spend with the Lord in complete humility knowing that I have ABSOLUTELY NO TRUTH OR DISCERNMENT WITHOUT HIM, and asking Him to show me His heart, His character, HIS TRUTH. There's no contending here, only the brokenness and humility that recognizes that I bring nothing to the Throne of God myself, only the hope and faith that He will hear my pleas and petitions for wisdom, forgiveness, love, and those things that protect me from not being led astray.

You know whenever you hear of a Pastor falling from grace the first thing 'the church' does is gather the 'elders' and go through the administrative protocols for picking their next leader. Rarely do I ever see fasting and praying for the Lord to handpick someone or the 'elders' gathering together on their knees to ask the Lord to show them what may have gone wrong and how to correct it according to His perfect will. And true to form, like the individual churches, the corporate church just wants to gather a bunch of scholars or people of influence to come to some agreement on 'truth' concerning the many errant doctrines and orations a so-called prophet in Lakeland has been propagating. Just the fact that there is a call by Grady for the elders in 'both camps' to resolve some issues should speak volumes about this movement. He should account for his own personal concern about Lakeland and reconcile it before he goes off on a healing crusade to mend camps. He didn't have to write that first article, what are if any, are his concerns? Forget all of the diplomatic fluff, I would like to know what the Lord is speaking to this man of God about all of this.

 2008/6/6 13:53
Compton
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 2732


 Re:

Quote:
People who said they had been deeply
impacted by the Holy Spirit in Lakeland used spiritual threats and
harsh terms to tell me that I had become the enemy.



Hi everyone,

This kind of self-referencing rhetoric is a wake up call to me that too many in the evangelical Church are ignoring God's word in the Bible, to chase after God's word individually and subjectively. Todd Bentley is an acute example of this mindset, but I fear it is widespread in just about every branch of the 'bible-believing' church today. The shift from basing our faith on the Word of God, to rooting our faith in some profound spiritual experience with God is understandable, but I think it is not exactly the same as those old paths we long for.

In the interest of being agreeable and teachable, I occasionally hope my concerns here are indications that I am just an old religous curmudgeon. I wonder if I too will be zapped and carried to new dimensions of revelation and experience that so many around me are having. Yet then I see the wreckage such thinking leaves in not only the lives of others, but also in my own sorry past...and I can't escape that sola scriptura seems to be the safest path for me and my family.

You ask me how I know he lives? He lives within my heart. Oh my...when we hold our own 'heart experience' to be the anchor for our faith, we are essentially anchor-less. The bible is the Word of God and prophets and preachers today should exposit God's word by his Spirit; they don't freelance. (I don't think that is cessasionist, but if it is...where do I sign up?)

Of course many prophets and preachers aren't spirit-led expositors. God supposedly has revealed to them whole catalogs of dates, facts and figures that aren't in scripture. Well, I suppose they have a right to prophesy and preach out of their own thoughts, feelings, experiences, and passions. But they have no right to expect anyone to listen to them. If what you are prophesying, preaching, or teaching isn't essentially a spirit-led exposition of specific scripture passages, you aren't speaking with much authority, biblically speaking. (Even if your'e pretty smart and informed!)

Now we are free to speak for ourselves, as experts and even simpletons, throughout the day as we conduct our affairs. We discuss our plans for business, our opinions of sports or politics, or even religion. That is part of being human. Yet, especially these days, when we desire to represent truth from God as an objective reality beyond our own arbitrary perspectives, we had better open our bibles...even before we open our hearts.

Many dear christians, often well meaning and sincere, have hopped in a runaway car without brakes to find inward experience and affirmation. The advice I'm trying to give to my family while barreling down this dark subjective highway is "Buckle up with the Word of God children."

Despite today's well meaning emphasis on having a personal inward experience, we are ultimately saved because of what happened on the outside of us...the cross of Christ. The cross is real. It was witnessed and recorded in God's word. It's history. Trust the glorious Gospel without question, and leave subjective feelings and uncertain experience with the old man you've buried. Hallelujah!

MC



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Mike Compton

 2008/6/6 19:19Profile





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