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Joined: 2002/12/11
Posts: 37186
"Pilgrim and Sojourner." - 1 Peter 2:11


[b]CHARISMA QUESTIONS AGAIN!! -Lakeland Revival[/b]

"In recent days, people who were touched in Lakeland have started
similar meetings in Atlanta, Chicago, Charlotte, N.C. and other
cities. Bentley and his colleagues believe this is the beginning of
a worldwide healing revival that will cover the globe.

"But not everyone in the charismatic/Pentecostal community is
convinced. Some say this is the last end-time revival while others
maintain it is a demonic counterfeit. Cult-watchers and anti-heresy
bloggers post Bentley’s comments on YouTube as evidence of a
theological scandal. Revival advocates respond by posting
documented evidence of healings. It all begins to resemble a
childish competition.

"Still others worry that Lakeland represents a questionable mixture
of truth and error. Since the initial eruption of the revival, my inbox
has been full of messages from charismatic leaders who are
concerned about weighty issues as well as trivial ones: Everything
from Bentley’s tattoos and body piercings to his claim that he once
interviewed the apostle Paul in heaven.

"When I wrote an article in mid-May calling for scrutiny of some
aspects of the Lakeland Revival, I was labeled a Pharisee and a
“religious policeman.” People who said they had been deeply
impacted by the Holy Spirit in Lakeland used spiritual threats and
harsh terms to tell me that I had become the enemy.

"I refuse to go on the defensive, and if I need to retract any
statement I’ve ever made about this revival I will. But what these
nasty exchanges have shown me is that a divisive spirit is certainly
at work in our midst—and we need urgent prayer to short-circuit
what the devil wants to do.

"When the early church was hit with the issue of Jewish legalism,
Paul and Barnabas determined that the answer was to seek the
counsel of “the apostles and elders” in Jerusalem (Acts 15:2, NASB).
The church was being divided because the legalists were insisting
that gentiles be circumcised. But when the elders looked into the
matter, the apostle James settled the dispute by issuing this wise ruling:

“Therefore it is my judgment that we do not trouble those who are
turning to God from among the gentiles, but that we write to them
that they abstain from things contaminated by idols and from
fornication and from what is strangled and from blood” (v. 19-20).
In other words, James affirmed the gentiles’ access to salvation
and overturned the legalists’ bad doctrine.

"Based on this biblical example, I am appealing to the elders in our
movement. We need to hear from them in this hour. In a desperate
moment we need older, seasoned veterans to release the counsel of the Lord..

"Today the charismatic movement has become fractured, and
opposing camps have formed. On one side there are those in the
apostolic camp who tend to emphasize biblical order, proper
church government, spiritual warfare and the reformation of society.
On the other side are those in the prophetic camp who focus on
miracles, healing, mystical experiences and the reclaiming of all
the supernatural manifestations of the New Testament.

"Both of these camps are contending for valid, biblical truths. We
need the prophetic and the apostolic! We need miracles as much
as we need healthy church growth and societal change. Yet if we
do not have a holy intervention, we could bite and devour one
another—and cancel out our collective impact.

"A biblical council must include the leaders of both of these camps.
And leaders must address all of the difficult issues triggered by
the Lakeland Revival. Those include:

"1. Biblical guidelines about angels. Some people in the prophetic
camp speak of frequent visits to heaven, “third heaven revelations,”
and long conversations with angels who use names such as
Emma, Promise and Winds of Change. Are these indeed spirits
sent from God, or agents of false light?

"2. A proper theology of the dead. Some in the prophetic camp
claim they have had conversations with dead Christians—including
Paul the apostle. Is this within the bounds of Christian experience,
or is it necromancy?

"3. Pastoral guidance about exotic spiritual manifestations. In
some circles in our movement, unusual signs and wonders have
been reported in church services—including the sudden appearance
of gold dust, feathers, gemstones and oil. At the same time,
worshipers are vibrating on the floor, jerking uncontrollably and
acting intoxicated. How can we protect people from the abuse of
manifestations, and from demonic influence, while at the same
time leaving room for genuine encounters with God?

"4. Clear guidelines concerning the restoration of fallen ministers.
The appearance of one prominent fallen evangelist, Paul Cain, at
the Lakeland Revival in May unleashed strong reactions from
many sectors of the church. Many people feel unprotected when
they sense that church leaders have chosen not to enforce proper
discipline for a minister’s unbiblical behavior. In this adulterous
generation, how can we draw lines to protect congregations while
at the same time offer healing and grace to a repentant preacher?

"These are some of the crucial questions we face as a movement.
May we proceed with a fresh gift of discernment, while at the
same time laying hold of all the blessings that revival will bring us."
[END QUOTE - Source- ]

SI Moderator - Greg Gordon

 2008/6/5 12:18Profile

Joined: 2008/1/31
Posts: 30
Indianapolis, Indiana


Blessings, brother Greg!

I may not be one to shoulder an opinion on anyone else, but this question came to my mind as I read this posted article: Why? Why would our God choose such aspects as described herein in the experiential outpouring of the claims by these folks?
It seems to me that the God I know, who abhors divisiveness, and is all about unity in the Body of Christ unto all believers, would NOT want such examples, such destructive demonstrations called as signs and wonders, to be displayed and claimed, thereby setting back all he has accomplished thus far.
How is peace proclaimed in these manifestations? Or unity? Or conformity to the image of Jesus?
Like I said, I may not be the one most versed on an opinion here, but this seeming carnival freakshow proclaims the work of a master-manipulator, not a sovereign, leading, ever-loving God.
Thanks for listening,
1Thessalonians 5:23

Kenneth Roy Love

 2008/6/5 12:45Profile

Joined: 2006/9/13
Posts: 3156


I prayed about this:

How can we protect people from the abuse of manifestations, and from demonic influence, while at the same time leaving room for genuine encounters with God?

And this is what the Lord put on my heart:

"My people must turn to me - they must turn from their wicked ways. These perplexing things that are before you are the result of vanity and fornication. The leaves of righteousness will be shown as the truth of the word that comes forth - the word of life and not the perverted utterances that fly about as if there is no place to land.

There is beauty in all that I do - an elegance of form that flows forth - a pure stream void of the pollution that lies before you. Keep your eyes steadily upon Me and the way will be made clear. These perversions are the result of your lust - lust for self gratification that has no concern for the well being of others and denies the truth of My word. The truth lies in Me, and Me alone. Beware the foolish practices of unconverted men.

The masses will fall into the trap - only the few will survive. Rest in Me, and Me alone. Assurance of Me is the only answer - this alone will save your life."

 2008/6/5 13:54Profile


It seems to me that the God I know, who abhors divisiveness, and is all about unity in the Body of Christ unto all believers, would NOT want such examples, such destructive demonstrations called as signs and wonders, to be displayed and claimed, thereby setting back all he has accomplished thus far.

Thats a great question. Have you considered that perhaps this "movement" is not of God, but instead of demonic roots, and thats why there is no peace or unity... and so much division?

The Bible refers to "doctrines of demons". Most Christians, even many on this forum, will refuse to use that term because it is risky... and not considered "loving", but judgemental.

But this is the term the Bible uses. And doctrines of demons will never be in unity with the doctrines of God.

This is why you dont see how there can be unity regarding this. The Charismatic Movement has not wanted sound doctrine for decades... and God is now allowing [b]some[/b] (not all) of them to have what they want.

By the way, that is an excellent editorial from Charisma. He's on the right track, I just think he's asking the wrong people.


 2008/6/5 14:17


I'll put this out there because I have to go. But here's my struggle with the 'unity' banter.

If scripture says that there will be many false prophets and teachers leading many astray and to not be deceived by this....then how can there possibly unity? I'm not for chaos or disorder, this stuff breaks my heart. At the same time I'm not so sure that 'unity' can be attained by an 'effort' by the 'church'. Especially when scripture says that people who are considered in the church will turn away from sound doctrine. I think Christ himself is the only one that will able to 'unify', I believe it's beyond our 'efforts', so I have to question it.

 2008/6/5 15:02


coley... I agree.


 2008/6/5 15:33

Joined: 2008/6/3
Posts: 60




 2008/6/5 16:00Profile

Joined: 2008/4/7
Posts: 797


Has it not been again and again and again.

I remember Jude.
[b]Apostasy was up and running in what 30 years?[/b]

The unity we endeavor to keep, is the unity of the Spirit. That would be the Holy Spirit of God. With so many of His functions and so much of His character detailed in the Word of God, is He so hard to recognize?

Remember dox-ology and praise in affirmation of truth.
24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, 25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

P.S. It is not surprising that men who all their life have feared death should fear the death of self. (I don't see where this would fit on this site. No one famous that I know of said it)

 2008/6/5 18:50Profile

Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 2732


I'm often reluctant to pile on in topics like these, but today I heard a recording of Todd Bentley giving one of his testimonies. Now, I am truly pained over division among professing Christians today, but some wantonly abuse such sincerity. How elastic can we be before being forced to choose unity over the Gospel?

So he's got me in this meeting, and he's leading this meeting...this little charismatic catholic meeting, and they're focusing on the gifts of the spirit. And as I'm sitting there I hear the audible voice of the lord and here's what god says to me: he says 'Todd, go up to Frenchie and tell him you have a demon.' And I said 'what?...I'm hearing the voice of god, and the audible voice of god says to me, a spirit filled born again Christian praying hours a day, reading the New Testament in one sitting. I mean in church... you know I was in men's group on Tuesday night, in church on Sunday, and mass on Monday. Like anywhere... that I was out on the streets every day. I was like "What? Tell him I have a demon?! I said 'How could I have a demon?' You know, 'I don't have a demon?!' He said, 'Yeah, I want you to go tell him that you have a demon.'

And so right in the middle of this service I walk right up to him, and I, I whisper into his ear "Frenchie, I have a (makes choking sound) and I start manifesting a demon. In fact it wasn't my voice anymore. I was so posseses by this spirit that literally my voice started speaking in another voice. Yet I was still aware of the fact that I'm Todd Bentley. I'm here. There's a voice speaking out of my mouth that's not my voice. But I have no control. I can't, I can't get myself back, and I can feel something rising up and through my flesh; not my spirit but through my flesh, there's a demonic power controlling me.

It throws me onto the floor, and I start writhing like a snake. I smash the coffee table, and I starts (sic) grabbing people in the room and I'm just throwing them around, up against the bookcase. I mean I'm thrashing this ladies house. And I'm like an uncontrollable writhing serpent on the floor speaking in a different voice in cursing and profanities coming out of my mouth.

And as that's happening I'm saying, 'I love Jesus. This can't be happening to me. I don't have demons. I love Jesus.' And the whole time I'm cursing the very people I love. And I'm, I can't stop you know? And so he jumps on me and he starts performing deliverance. And the first spirt to come out of me was fear. That was the first demon, it was a demon of fear. Then he starts dealing with all of these other demonic spirits."*

Is any commentary needed here? I feel this testimony is it's own tragic warning.


*a transcription of an excerpt from Todd Bentley

Mike Compton

 2008/6/5 20:58Profile

Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri


Is any commentary needed here? I feel this testimony is it's own tragic warning.

When has there ever been such an overflow of deception and lies? It's like a damn of confusion and lies has broken and is drowning whole churches in devilishness? It is hard to believe that this whole madness has even gained enough traction to be taken seriously. But I think we need to be ready to give an answer on these lies whenever necessary. This is like a multitude of wolves unleashed in one man.

Robert Wurtz II

 2008/6/5 21:57Profile

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