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boG
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Joined: 2008/5/21
Posts: 349
Las Vegas, NV

 The More Excellent Way

How human have we made our God?

Please, feel free to reply in response to this question.



The following is a response to a series of threads from the topic "Personal Election (not corporate)". I posted this as a new thread because it is a not in keeping to the original intent of the previous topic,
found here:
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=23460&forum=36#186592


Quote:
My question is, how could someone think Christ is in them when He is not.
Could it be that they don't think the "substancial evidence" (tangible fruit) is of any consequence?



On the contrary, in my experience, I have found that most people consider themselves as "saved" for no other reason than because of "tangible fruit." It is a true error.

For example, Speaking in tongues:
While it is indeed a gift of the Spirit, it is most importantly, a gift as the Spirit gives utterance.

Speaking in strange tongues (or gibberish, as some say) is not unique to Christianity. I believe there are many today who are so insecure about their faith that they are grasping for "tangible evidences" that are not truly birthed by the Holy Spirit. Even speaking with tongues. Tongues that are nothing more than carnal gibberish that opens up their hearts, through their tongues, to dangerous spiritual influences.

This comes from the same mind of Humanism that has penetrated Christianity (Paris Reidhead's sermon, Ten Shekels and a Shirt). The false premise that "if it succeeds" thus "it is good".

From Dictionary.com I took this description (so that you all might have the same understanding of what I am referring to in this instance) of Humanism:
Quote:
defined 1907 by co-founder F.C.S. Schiller as: "The perception that the philosophical problem concerns human beings striving to comprehend a world of human experience by the resources of human minds."



The Scriptures tell us plainly that the Holy Spirit bears witness with the spirit of men whether or not they be born of God. This is not subjective in the least as it does not derive from the mind of the individual. It is fully objective reality being independantly manifested by the work and grace of God on the behalf, in the heart, of the sinner.

And when men who are strongly desiring to be born of God settle for anything less than the true witness of the Spirit. They must also find rationale to equate their [b]expectations[/b] of reality to their limited experience. Thus the fallacy of "tangible fruits" being equated to "true salvation". As I said previously it is indeed [u]a witness[/u] but definitely not a [b]Perfect Witness[/b].


To better emphasize, allow me to further explain, going back to my previous illustration:

"Faith without works is dead"

Faith = born of God and overcomes the world. This is the true and proper knowledge of God given to all men whereby they might all haply draw near and know Him. (Instead of becoming reprobates with vain imaginations.)

Works = as Jesus said, "is to believe in the One whom the Father has sent" (John 6:26).

This understanding is comparable to the Law according to ordinances (OT) and the beatitudes, being the Law of the Spirit of Christ (NT). (I will explain more on this later.)


Thus we have, faith knowing that God is and He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him; and uniting this faith with works: believing on the Son of God.

No doubt this unity will obviously bring forth fruits in accordance to the Spirit of Life. However, allow me to make a clear distinction between "bearing much fruit" and "bearing much fruit [b]that shall remain[/b]". The difference between storing up eternal treasures in heaven rather than worldly treasures, not limited to physical matter, which will perish. Any fruit which is not birthed by the witness of the Spirit in our spirit (strictly spiritual) is temporal and shall not remain.

However this is not to say that all temporal fruits are evil or without their proper place.

John 5 is one of my personally foundational Scriptures.

John 5:33-34,
Ye sent unto John, and he bare witness unto the truth. [b]But I receive not testimony from man[/b]: but these things I say, [b]that ye might be saved[/b].

As Jesus said elsewhere, "Yet he who is least in the kingdom of God is greater than John the Baptist."

Even though he was the last and greatest of the OT prophets. This is because John was not baptized and/or full of the Holy Spirit.

While indeed John was used mightily by God to prepare the way of Jesus' coming, to stir up an entire nation to seek God; yet, Jesus said concerning him, "But I receive not testimony from man." And again, in verse 41, Jesus says, "I receive not honour (glory) from men."

Quote:
However, the fruit is tangible which proves the faith is real.



This is not accurate to say. First, faith is real or it isn't, if it is real then it is perfected or made complete through works. If faith needs to be proven before it can be established as true then it means nothing. Blessed are they who have not seen, and believe (John 20:29). And as I have described those works are "believing in the Son of God" according to the measure of faith revealed to each man by God. This faith being all the more perfected in the true knowledge of Christ (2 Peter 1). And even with faith the measure of a mustard seed it is by far enough to cast down entire mountains. Which should not be surprising considering, logically, that even the least quantity taken from a "Substance of Infinity" will itself be characteristic of the same Nature of the Substance. Example, Philippians 2, in reference to the nature of Jesus. That same Divine Nature which we are make partakers.

1 John 5:4, For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world -- our faith.

To tie this back to the point at first...

You are putting the emphasis on showing forth works. I am putting the emphasis on knowing God.

And I stress this point for this reason: because it is far too easy for men to have begun in the Spirit and continue in the flesh.

Tell me, how realistic would it be to say of Jesus: "Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher who has come from God; for no one can do these signs that you do apart from the presence of God."
In reference, to say, if Jesus were [b][u]ONLY[/b][/u]: serving tables, or clothing the poor, or giving shelter to the homeless, or visiting widows, or comforting the afflicted, or teaching Sunday school, or ushering, etc.

EMPHASIS ON THE [u][b]ONLY[/u][/b]!!
To say such a thing in this manner would be amiss to the ministry and reality of Jesus, the Christ.

However, am I saying these things are wrong? By all means no, as I said previously, they have their place. But again, Christ does not receive glory or testimony from men; these things are so that the world might see your love one for another. This is our glory which Jesus gives us (John 17:22): "that they may be one, just as We are one."

So let us look further on in John 5.

36. "But the testimony which I have is greater than the testimony of John; for [b]the works which the Father has given Me[/b] to accomplish--the very works that I do--testify about Me, that the Father has sent Me.

The works that Jesus did bear witness of Him.

37. "And [b]the Father who sent Me[/b], He has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time nor seen His form.

The Father testifies of Jesus.

38. "You do not have His word abiding in you, for you do not believe Him whom He sent.

This goes again to what Jesus said is the work of God (John 6:29).

39. "You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me;

The Scriptures also bear witness that Jesus is the Christ.
"Good!" we so often say, you are reading your bibles! However ...

40. and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life.


So what do we see here; whereby we might also testify and be witnesses unto Christ?
Acts 1:8
But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto Me.

Jesus said in the beautiful beatitudes, "You have heard that it was said, You shall not commit adultery."
And, "but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart."

Therefore, it is not a question of whether the "tangible fruits" bear witness that you are indeed an adulterer; not according to the NT standard given by Jesus. But the very heart of a man shall condemn him before Purer Eyes.

So we must consider the [b]fruit of the Spirit[/b] [...]

Galatians 5:22-23,
The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control.

[...] working through us to do those [b]works given us to do by our Father[/b] [...]

[b]John 5:36[/b] / Ephesians 2:10,
For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

[...] according to the power of the Holy Ghost come upon us to be witnesses unto Christ Jesus.

[b]John 5:36[/b] / 1 Corinthians 12,
4. Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
5. And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
6. And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
7. But [b]the manifestation of the Spirit is [u]given to every man[/u] to profit withal[/b].
8. For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
9. To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
10. To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
11. But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
12. For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
13. For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.


So, again, what am I saying?
Just as we are born-again into newness of life -- so are we also to press on to be baptized with the Holy Ghost unto [b]abundance of life[/b].

Just as we bear fruit in keeping with repentance -- so are we also to press on to bear fruit that shall remain according to the [b]power of the Spirit[/b].

As Jesus said, Matthew 9:6, "So that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins" -- then He said to the paralytic, "Get up, pick up your bed and go home."

We could comfort and feed and do service to that paralytic man till the end of our days. And such would be called a good ministry in our modern church. But, SO THAT YOU MAY KNOW THAT THE SON OF MAN HAS AUTHORITY TO FORGIVE SINS! GET UP -- WALK! Amen. Amen.

[b][u]This is how Jesus is glorified[/b][/u] (John 17:21): That they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, [b]that they also may be in Us, [u]so that the world may believe that You sent Me[/u][/b].

[b][u]So that the world may believe that You sent Me!![/u][/b].

The glory we have been given from Christ (Church of Acts) is that we all might attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ (Ephesians 4).


The Glory of Christ is that we all might be hid in Christ in God! Do you see the difference? The modern church at its pinnacle of perfection seeks its aim to bring peace to all men. Christ has sought from the beginning as the pinnacle of perfection to bring peace to all men in Him! To see Him as He is! To know Him! To forever be with Him!

While the modern church has continued to vainly exalt the carnal into the spiritual; Christ has already set the example by bring the Word of God, which is Spirit and truth, down into the likeness of flesh. Being manifested in the flesh again and again with each one baptized with the Holy Spirit.

How human have we made our God to be?

I heard from an A.W. Tozer sermon, the "Pyramid scheme of God" (as I call it): as we all come nearer to Christ: we all draw nearer to eachother.

All [b]these works[/b] shining forth from [b]The More Excellent Way[/b] (1 Corinthians 13). Is this not the heart of Christ and the purpose of SermonIndex.net?


_________________
Jordan

 2008/5/30 4:50Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re: The More Excellent Way

Quote:
boG wrote:
Quote:
My question is, how could someone think Christ is in them when He is not.
Could it be that they don't think the "substancial evidence" (tangible fruit) is of any consequence?

On the contrary, in my experience, I have found that most people consider themselves as "saved" for no other reason than because of "tangible fruit." It is a true error.

For example, Speaking in tongues:
While it is indeed a gift of the Spirit, it is most importantly, a gift as the Spirit gives utterance.

I am talking about fruit-tangibility as a changed life, a new view on life, and a new motive for everything one does as love being your motivational basis.
[b]John 13:35[/b] [color=990000]By this shall all men know that you are my disciples, if you have love one to another.[/color]
Love is also objective, not only subjective.

You know some one is not realy saved after an "alter call" if you don't see any change in them.
You might not see a big change, however, you should see one, at least, in the attitude. If salvation is not tangible it is worthless; 1 Corinthians 13:1-3

Quote:
The Scriptures tell us plainly that the Holy Spirit bears witness with the spirit of men whether or not they be born of God. This is not subjective in the least as it does not derive from the mind of the individual. It is fully objective reality being independantly manifested by the work and grace of God on the behalf, in the heart, of the sinner.

[b]1 John 3:19[/b] [color=990000]And by this we know that we are of the truth[/color](this is how we know that we are saved)[color=990000], and shall assure our hearts before him:[/color]
[color=990000]let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth[/color] [b]V:18[/b]

Quote:
And when men who are strongly desiring to be born of God settle for anything less than the true witness of the Spirit. They must also find rationale to equate their expectations of reality to their limited experience. Thus the fallacy of "tangible fruits" being equated to "true salvation". As I said previously it is indeed a witness but definitely not a Perfect Witness.

Now I know you have misunderstood me.
My points on tangible fruits are the perfect witness, especially being the witness for ourselves:
[b]1 John 3:18-19[/b][color=990000]And by this we know that we are of the truth, and assure our hearts before God[/color]
In other words, this is how we know that we ourselves are saved so that we may have peace of mind.
[color=990000]let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.[/color] [b]V:18[/b]

Quote:
Even though he was the last and greatest of the OT prophets. This is because [b]John was not baptized and/or full of the Holy Spirit[/b].

John was "baptize with the Spirit ” & "filled with the Spirit" from his mother's womb, read Luke 1:15.

Quote:
Quote:
However, the fruit is tangible which proves the faith is real.

This is not accurate to say. First, faith is real or it isn't, if it is real then it is perfected or made complete through works. If faith needs to be proven before it can be established as true then it means nothing.

I don't mean it that way.

Quote:
You are putting the emphasis on showing forth works. I am putting the emphasis on knowing God.

I am also emphasizing knowing God, However [b]1John 2:3[/b] tells us [color=990000]by this we know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.[/color]
What are His commandmets?
They all come down to loving God with all your being and your neighbor as yourself.
This love is tangible fruit:
[b]1John 3:17[/b] [color=990000]But whoever has this world's goods, and sees his brother have need, and shuts up his heart of compassion from him, how dwells the love of God in him?[/color]
[b]James 2:15-16[/b] [color=990000]If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
[b]16:[/b] And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be warmed and filled; yet you give them not those things which are needful to the body; what does it profit?[/color]

I am pretty sure we are agreeing, but on difrent wave lengths.

 2008/5/30 15:03Profile
boG
Member



Joined: 2008/5/21
Posts: 349
Las Vegas, NV

 Re:

:) and this I know, that we are agreeing.

Yet I stress this perspective no less. The difference is that you are coming from an outward perspective of observing someone else, while I am focusing strictly on the inward witness found in the innerman. Whereby that inward witness shows forth to agree with your statements.

While I stand here observing my brother I can test his spirit by the fruits he bears to judge whether he is properly converted. But this witness is from men and not from God, therein lies the danger; unless the Spirit Himself reveals the heart's intention of another man.


By the way, it is good that you brought up Luke 1:15 that scripture had passed my mind. But it doesn't change that John was not baptized in the manner of Pentecost, which is what I am referring to. John was no less inspired and full of the Holy Ghost than the prophets before him. The difference was that John was no longer prophecying for Jesus was manifested (Matthew 11:13; Luke 16:16). We see this by John's question, "Are You the Expected One, or shall we look for someone else?" Even though John did prophecy concerning Jesus that He was indeed the "Lamb of God." He still later had this question because he had not received the personal revelation of Jesus Christ that was poured out at Pentecost.


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Jordan

 2008/5/30 17:25Profile
sojourner7
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Joined: 2007/6/27
Posts: 1573
Omaha, NE

 Re:

When we believe the gospel truth and receive the
Saviour; the Spirit bears witness in our hearts
concerning assurance of eternal life and the
Spirit manifests Himself in the fruits of the
Spirit and works of Christ.


_________________
Martin G. Smith

 2008/5/30 21:16Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3707
Ca.

 Re:

Hebrews 9:8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:

John 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.

One earthly and one heavenly.

Earthly through works, heavenly through the Word Himself, by grace through Faith.

Earthly faith in Works, Heavenly Faith through Jesus Christ.

In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2008/5/30 21:52Profile
boG
Member



Joined: 2008/5/21
Posts: 349
Las Vegas, NV

 Re:

Interesting, Hebrews 9:8 and John 2:19 both are making reference to the destruction and removal of the earthly to give way to the heavenly.

The first tabernacle (made by hands) of the earthly nature had to be put aside for righteousness sake. This is because the works and sacrifices of the first tabernacle could not make clean the consciences of the sinners.

(Curious, I was not aware I referenced to Hebrews 9:9.)


8. The Holy Spirit is signifying this, that the way into the holy place has not yet been disclosed while the outer tabernacle is still standing,
9. which is a symbol for the present time. Accordingly both gifts and sacrifices are offered which cannot make the worshiper perfect in conscience,
10. since they relate only to food and drink and various washings, regulations for the body imposed until a time of reformation.
11. But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things to come, He entered through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this creation;
12. and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.


The earthly works could not work the righteousness of God. Therefore Christ had to fulfill the earthly type&shadow with the Greater and More Perfect Tabernacle.

And, again, unless the Christ did suffer and the earthly nature He took upon Himself put to death, He could not return to the Father and send the promise of the Holy Ghost.

As far as these Scriptures are concerned the earthly works are done away with because the Perfect Works are come.

God has prepared works for us to walk in according to the virtue of the Holy Spirit. And everything God does is heavenly, there is nothing of this earthly world in God's works.

Therefore, it is not "Earthly faith in Works, Heavenly Faith through Jesus Christ"
but rather "Faith in Jesus Christ through the Father's works which He has given us to do in the earth."


_________________
Jordan

 2008/5/31 1:18Profile
Christinyou
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Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3707
Ca.

 Re:

I think all three apply, faith of Christ, faith in Christ, faith through Christ. Amen.
All heavenly. New creatures.



The faith of Christ by the Christ that is in us and us in Him. Who is the life we now live in the flesh. Gal 2:20

Faith in Christ, given by the Father that we might believe. John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Faith through Christ by the Holy Spirit of promise, leading us to: Colossians 1:27-29 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2008/5/31 2:09Profile





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