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Discussion Forum : General Topics : Hearing God's Voice

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 Re: THE PERFECTION OF SCRIPTURES.



No one is saying that the Holy Spirit "whispers in our mind", in every given situation, and contrary to your thoughts , there is a guidance that can come to us by him.; The hearing of His voice, and that hearing, and sometimes guidance is as real as it is and was in the Early Church, where many instances have been given in this thread to this point.

I am saying, that in the holding to cessationism, that the Holy Spirit is alive today, and acts in his church, the same way as the primitive church was graced. If you read my post, I stated that the Word and the Spirit agree. If you live your life according to the letter alone, without the Spirit, how can you be connected to life?

You are assuming that these great historical figures, were void of a Spirit led life, simply because they were men of the Word.

As far as the example of cold and dead religion being produced by those who cling to legalism, and have a form of Godliness, but deny the Power of it; that is a matter of discernment, and really cannot be argued, for most would deny Apostacy in any situation.

Let us cling to the word. The letter kills, the Spirit gives life. What does this mean to you?

I have traveled extensively, preaching the gospel in the far east. I did so by revelation, in each instance, even unto the exact cities, sometimes. How was this possible? I am often bewildered, but I am often led by God, as He directs me in a multitude of ways, and yes, some of them similar to New Testament revelation.

I love the Scripture, but there is a small still voice that I am learning to hear, more and more.[ I hope.] What does it mean to you as the Word says; "He that has an Ear, let him hear what the SPIRIT says unto the churches." Could the Spirit be ministering conviction, righteousness and Justice in specific ways? If the Bible is the embodiment of everything He ever wants to communicate, why is He yet speaking to the Church??

If you take the supernatural guidance out of the New testament, from ACTS on, I doubt if there would be a Church.

As you fondly referred to these historical leaders, do you have any idea how many of the saints in these archives had regular experiences of guidance outside of the scriptures?; and had amazing prophetic experiences with the Father?


No one is excluding the authority of the Scripture, and admonishing Saints to follow their impressions , yet as we know Him more, and are aware of being led by the Spirit more, then we are able to hear his voice better, just like the Bible says. There is safety there also.

Sometimes things grieve me in the body. This is not all because I know the scriptures have been violated, but because of an inner witness in which my spirit bears witness with His Spirit, and I am aware of death or deception, even beyond my senses or my mind. Sometimes these too, are very specific. I have known hundreds of Christians that have had these witnesses. How? I give according to my leading; Often specific amounts of money[ not always]. I give according to my burden. This is guidance to me.


I read the Bible over and over, and see the perfection of God in them. They are



[b]PARAMOUNT[/b] in my guidance and thoughts, yet I am led by the Spirit also, for I know that He is still guiding us in Sovereign Provision and speaking to the church, in a direct manner...Tom...ps: I fail more than I succeed.

 2008/5/29 23:46









 Re: John G. Lake...Spirit filled and Spirit led


In 5 years time, John G. Lake shook Africa to it's roots for the Gospel. He left the "Dark" continent with 1,000,000 converts, 625 churches and 1,250 full time Ministers in his wake.

His testimony of specific guidance in his life is mind boggling, from his waiting in line in Africa with no money to pay customs, and no where to go, and hearing The Lord to obey and wait, [several children in tow], to audible inward speaking from God, when danger was imminent. God never let him down. This goes on and on, and for me, it is very much encouraging to know that He yet Provides, and lets us in on our part to obey and receive.

The "Diary of John Lake" is a good one, and "Adventures with God," if you can find it.

 2008/5/30 5:26
crsschk
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Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: Hearing knowing

Joh 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Joh 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Dear Taylor,

Think there is a great possibility of going past each other here while stating much of the same understanding. Brother Tom I concur with and also with where you are cautioning but from a different perspective, or better, emphasis.

Quote:
I have yet to see anyone explain straight from the Scripture that the Holy Spirit whispers into our minds what decisions we should make in a given situation.



"Constantly" ... as you used earlier. Here, 'whispering', which I would only say ... well, yes and no, depends on a great deal of clarification. If I am following you correctly here I would add my own earlier experience where there was much confusion by a similar ... expectation to hear 'turn by turn' instruction, that being led of the Spirit was equivalent to a GPS unit. It became a certain madness trying to decipher the various 'voices' that these minds are capable of. A lot of that was internalized from the constructs of very bad teaching, the whole quasi-world of WOF, the tendencies of zeal brought on by truly coming into the Light, being raised Catholic and then hearing the counter voices of far better teachers, sermons, Church history, past saints ... A whole mixed, struggling to understand ... just how is this all supposed to work?

1Co 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.


Found myself in that pendulumitis as Zac Poonen coined it, going from one extreme to the other. Recognizing the error that I was somewhat bound up in, went to the opposite end of the spectrum, denouncing most everything that did not line up didactic with the new found understanding, which was more of a hard-line approach 'the letter of the law' so to speak. I say somewhat because there was a suppressed internal nagging all along that I knew things where amiss, not right, not jiving.

1Co 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

This is a spiritual life with spiritual understanding and spiritual absolutes ...

Col 1:9 For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding;


1Co 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.

Our warfare is spiritual, we recognize the battle and in all honestly do not even need the admonishen to tell us it is so as Paul does. He explains more than instructs in a variety of places. (Ephesians for instance).

Even after so much time it is difficult to put into words the expression of understanding. I think that is why so many of us are more fond of quoting others, it is because they give the expression of what we experience so much better, more articulately, with greater clarity. It's the cliché' like "better caught than taught". It's recognizing the spiritual atmosphere in any given place, circumstance, setting. It is where the thoughtful, mindful ... internally honest soul is disturbed even in religious settings where everyone else is seemingly having the time of their life while they sit like a lump, to borrow Art Katz' language, grieved, distraught ... [i]This is not the Lord[/i].

But it is 'scriptural' in understanding;

Quote:
16All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

17That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.




Absolutely. It is what many of us are saying and appealing to on a constant basis. As one of our own here put it very succinctly recently to me;

[i]... these are times to be men of the Word, and not men of "what I think the Lord is telling me." [/i]

I may well be a bit disjointed here, the thoughts are coming from different angles. Suffice it to say that what I am 'hearing' and I mean spiritually is scripture in any given moment. In prayer, in the waking, working normative hours of the day. The verses and underpinnings of them, the comparative counsel of the whole of scripture, the context and yet the principle. The word of God comes to mind only in as much as we feed on it;

Mat 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Col 3:16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.

Still feel like I have hardly touched on all this but must run, perhaps others can elaborate ...


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Mike Balog

 2008/5/30 8:08Profile
TaylorOtwell
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Arkansas

 Re:

Thanks for your post.

I don't really think much more interaction on the topic is necessary on my end, as we have both presented our veiwpoints and the discerning reader can be left to judge what is more Scriptural.

Briefly, with regards to "... these are times to be men of the Word, and not men of "what I think the Lord is telling me."

I think the difference between this quote and me would be that I would say there we are to be men of the Word, and not men of what I think the Lord is telling me ALL the time.

I feel strongly about this topic because I have been down the road of the viewpoint others are advocating and it is a confusing mess. However, as I begin to realize that the Scripture alone was enough to guide me (however, I can only truly love and apprehend Scripture by the Spirit's enablement), I found that my faith and decisions were grounded on solid, eternal truth rather than subjective, questionable feelings/thoughts.

Both of us believe that the Spirit indwells the believer; however, we are disagreeing on the role of the Spirit. Also, I am not holding a cessationist view, which implies that the Spirit used to do something and then stopped. I am saying that I don't see any evidence that the Lord EVER lead His people by implanting thoughts/feelings. I only read about audible speaking or visions. Outside of that, I see a whole lot about studying the Scripture and taking heed to God's written commands.

Thanks for posting about this, hopefully we have both been sharpened in the faith. :-)


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Taylor Otwell

 2008/5/30 9:10Profile
JoanM
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Joined: 2008/4/7
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 Re: Hearing from God

I think our Father is maybe not finnished here.

As I write some thoughts out from this post, there is an audible :-) radio program airing on this link at this time. http://www.crown.org/Media/default.aspx The host Chuck, of Crown Financial Ministries, talking about how God spoke to his mind. "unsearchable revelation" They archive. I am only pointing out that they are discussing something of the concerns here. You can easily see the points at which the death of self is needed to be mentioned and other less clearly articulated points. (Mr. Laturno has a wonderful testimony a little like our brother who wrote [u]God Owns My Business[/u])


Now back to thoughts I am writing out

 2008/5/30 15:57Profile









 Re: Hearing God...Is this real???...How??




This post is too important to be lost in a radio broadcast. I believe that in the end, there will be multitudes that stand before the Lord, with great regret that they did not hate their lives, and learn to give everything to Him. But How???? Jesus said; "Take heed, therefore, [b]HOW[/b] you hear," and then, "He that has an ear, let Him Hear what the Spirit is saying to the church."

How we hear overshadows how we respond, doesn't it? If we cannot hear, how can we obey, and honor his word?

This is not saying that my doctrine rules over yours, in the arena of obedience and submission. It does not; Even in the company of those who believe that the Holy spirit has ceased speaking when the Bible was canonized [or John died.]

Does Jesus rule in your fellowship? If the Lord is present, you will be convicted of your sin, and rejoice with Him when he does. How is this possible? You will hear Him, unless the candlestick of your church has been removed by Him.

There are dead churches you know. Can you hear Him as you wake in the morning? Why not?


Would you like for your young children to grow up, and be of those who hear God? I would bet you would. This is important. Tom

 2008/5/31 18:59
TaylorOtwell
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Joined: 2006/6/19
Posts: 927
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 Re:

You quoted Luke 18:18, back up to verse 15 for a second.

Luk 8:15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.

What is the word in the parable of the sower? I don't think I'm going out on an exegetical limb when I say it is the proclaimed Gospel of our Lord. Not a thought in your mind that you believe to be revelation from the Lord. This verse has nothing to do with hearing from God in the sense of thoughts/feelings. It has to do with the preached word. Take heed how hear the word, hear it with reverence, with meditation, learn what it means.

I strive to obey the Scripture. As I said before, there is a lot of Biblical exhortation for meditating and obeying the Scripture. However, I find nothing for obeying the voices in my head or the feelings in my heart. Do you know what cult emphasizes that teaching? Mormonism. A cursed cult with a false gospel.

I want my children to hear from God in his Holy Scripture, His infallible Word. That Word is sure and true, preserved throughout the ages. We have a responsibility to study it diligently in order that we may do and believe what it says.

I have answered every verse that has been brought into this thread with what I sincerely find to be simple contextual observation. You are simply reading what you have come to believe about "hearing" from God into the text and made it say things it doesn't say.

As my first post stated, I still have yet to see anyone anywhere bring Scripture to the table and prove from the Scripture that God has appointed silent thoughts/feelings in the mind to be a guide for us.

Yes, I hear the Lord every morning as I read His holy Scripture.

All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: [b]That the man of God may be perfect[/b], thoroughly furnished unto all good works. (2nd Tim 3:16-17)

And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead? [b]To the law and to the testimony:[/b] if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them. (Isaiah 8:19-20)

I am convicted of sin by the Scripture, I am comforted by the Lord in the Scripture, I am corrected in the Scripture, I find what is right and wrong in the Scripture.

There are dead churches; they are the ones who forsake Scripture. I could be wrong, but you seem to be implying that those who believe they are guided solely by Scripture must be dead, cold heathens. I know some godly men who would beg to differ.

I am not teaching something new, this is sound truth accepted by godly saints throughout the ages.


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Taylor Otwell

 2008/5/31 22:02Profile
JoanM
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Joined: 2008/4/7
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 Re:

[u]Sorry Brothertom[/u]. I thought my early post indicated that I take Griffo's question seriously and efforts here to articulate a helpful balanced response. The radio program in the background was easy to notice as I searched the scriptures, noting points that matter and considered what might be useful here versus just for me. I take it that noticing such coincidences can confuse some, perhaps even Griffo at times. Thus the quick post.

Rather than editing down my thoughts to Griffo I’ll just post them now with thoughts for Taylor Otwell to follow.

GRIFFO
Oh dear Griffo, what a windfall. I trust you are tracking all this. These wonderful sincere brothers and sisters, who understand that [u]the things of God matter greatly[/u], are very dear. And they are not strangers to the difficulty you expressed. No one growing in Christ, the Word of God, is a stranger here, either through direct experience or in close fellowship with others. Can you see the comfort each has received and apply it.

Everyone who is awake/waking up needs the balance spoken of in this thread. [u][b]Balance[/b][/u]: The soldier’s position of standing at “ready-rest”. I mean standing, ready to, and at rest. [u][b]Balance[/b][/u]: knowing the scripture and the power of God. Spirit and Truth. Jesus was clear that both are needed 24 And Jesus answering said unto them, Do ye not therefore err, because ye know not the scriptures, neither the power of God?(Mark 12:24)

The work He is doing in you brings you to the same fullness that the work he is doing in all believers. He made you uniquely (a different number of hairs on your head). He knows how to grow you. That is why we press into Him. There is nothing [u]objectively[/u] more trustworthy than the Word of God/scripture. Without Him/[u]scripture that is made alive[/u] (lots of things) but in regard to your specific question, how can you distinguish voices/thoughts/various spirits (man, yours and others, familiar spirits)?

So, Griffo, some of what stood out to me follows and I am grateful that these were brought out.

[u]Hmmhmm[/u]: I found things on the tape you gave in a link that were honest and had virtue. Good to think on. I trust Taylor took a listen.

[u]Death2Self[/u]: the battle with the “old man”/self in control/my way-my glory that gets a deathblow at the cross, just as your name suggests stands out. Death2Self, you were not rambling! Look and see how what you said followed our Lord’s response to the three temptations (the Word, the whole Word and nothing but the Word of God). I have a well-used mental note to examine thorny issues from that perspective.

[u]Brotherton[/u]: John G. Lakes testimony was good to recall and one of thousands. I am so grateful we have records of those that went before. Particularly when they are by their own hand. They are not scripture, not perfect, but what a gift. Early on for me I recall asking missionaries, “How did God …How were you led to …” About their response, “Doors opened, doors closed.” I thought, “Well of course …that doesn’t cut it…. I mean exactly. “

[u]Ginnyrose[/u]: “Ask Him to teach you.” That heart attitude always helps me. Clearly He wills to teach us (to His glory and our good.).

[u]Crsschk[/u]: I appreciated your addressing exaggeration (the “constantly”) and balance. It was helpful to see your thought in the scripture references. And, Meditation on His Word is so fruitful! Like getting a hold of a rope (life line) and following it hand-over-hand.

 2008/6/1 2:02Profile
crsschk
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Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: Spirit back of the letter

Taylor,


[i]But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. [b]But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.[/b][/i] 1Co 2:9-16

[i]Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God; Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.[/i]2Co 3:5,6

Quote:
I have answered every verse that has been brought into this thread with what I sincerely find to be simple contextual observation. You are simply reading what you have come to believe about "hearing" from God into the text and made it say things it doesn't say.



No, you have not but are perilously close to killing with the letter ... You will make yourself into a Pharisee and frankly are starting to sound exactly like one. I am afraid you understand nothing of spiritual life only the letter.

Quote:
For example, if you are contemplating whether to share the Gospel with someone, we already know it is God's will to share the Gospel via the Scripture; however, you need to take into consideration whether this is a wise time to share the Gospel, what would be good ways to approach this person about the Gospel, etc.



Or ...

[i]And so were the churches established in the faith, and increased in number daily. Now when they had gone throughout Phrygia and the region of Galatia, and were [u]forbidden of the Holy Ghost to preach the word[/u] in Asia, [/i]Act 16:5,6

If you are going to measure everything by your intellect and reason you know nothing but soulish attributes and will be guided and ruled of them. What is disturbing is your penchant towards extremism. Granted, this age is overwrought with soulish, sentimental, 'feelings' and misconstrued twisting of the scriptures. Granted, the Word of God, the scriptures .. all things tested, all things measured, all things to the law and the testimony. We go to great, absurd lengths here .. the Brethren, the pastors and ministers, the long dead saints that dominate this site ... it is adamant and forceful ... Be good Bereans! It is the battle cry in this age of deception. It is redundant and constant. All these things and more ...

Yet, for all this you still cannot 'hear' because your fixed expectation is to have your ears reverberated by sound waves and propose that is how the indwelt Spirit operates. If that be so He would never need to take up residence, only a bullhorn, a microphone and PA system or a physical apparition speaking, a voice from the clouds ... can you not see how ridiculous this all is?

Joh 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Joh 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me

That voice is internal and that voice does not contradict itself in word, thought or deed.

Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

How long did the Lord walk and talk directly into their hearing and they did not recognize Him? Their hearts burned even while he opened to them the very scriptures themselves and yet it still took something other, something past ...

Luk 24:31 And their eyes were opened, and they knew him; and he vanished out of their sight.

Physical eyes? Physical hearing? Physical voice?

Brother, I fear for you if you do not develop a spiritual understanding.

Quote:
I could be wrong, but you seem to be implying that those who believe they are guided solely by Scripture must be dead, cold heathens. I know some godly men who would beg to differ.



Your spirit is giving off a coldness and a contentious mindset. I know these same godly men, guided solely by scripture would indeed beg to differ with you yourself.

[i]And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me. Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, [/i]

I pray He might open your understanding as well.

Do a study on spirit, on spiritual, on the Holy Spirit and anything related. Likewise study the heart and understanding from beginning to end, the whole counsel of Gods word. This has always been the Lords great controversy with his creatures, that they do not know Him in the manner and ways that he would have us to.

Cannot even begin to touch on the matter of prayer in your constructs, it would seem foolish and unnecessary to even bother with the exercise of prayer, with pleading and intercession when there is no expectation of answer lest it be audible ...

[i]Edit[/i]: Almost forgot just where I had been reading this morning as yet another example ...

[i]Men and brethren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas ...

And they appointed two, Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias. And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen ...

And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.[/i] Act 1:16-26


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Mike Balog

 2008/6/1 9:13Profile
TaylorOtwell
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 Re:

I'll answer all the Scriptural arguments you presented...

[b]But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ. 1Co 2:9-16[/b]

This passage states that those who have the Spirit of God can understand, cherish, and love the things of God because they have that Spirit to reveal it to them and to show the beauty of it to them. That does not mean, nor does it say anywhere in the verse, that the Spirit reveals it by a voice in our heads. I'm sure you have studied the Bible with someone who simply did not cherish or grasp the beauty of the gospel, that is what this verse is talking about. They were not able to because the Spirit did not reveal the beauty of it to them. You are assuming the Spirit reveals it by inward suggestions, I am stating that the mind and haert are opened to understand, cherish, and love the Scripture and what it teaches.

[b]Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God; Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.2Co 3:5,6[/b]

This verse has been taken out of context many times in this thread. It is saying nothing about what this thread is talking about. Paul is talking about the Law vs. Grace as a system of salvation. They are not ministers of the letter (law, Ten Commandments) as a way of salvation. I'll offer Matthew Henry's exposition...

He distinguishes between the letter and the spirit even of the New Testament, 2Co_3:6. As able ministers of the New Testament, they were ministers not merely of the letter, to read the written word, or to preach the letter of the gospel only, but they were ministers of the Spirit also; the Spirit of God did accompany their ministrations. The letter killeth; this the letter of the law does, for that is the ministration of death; and if we rest only in the letter of the gospel we shall be never the better for so doing, for even that will be a savour of death unto death; but the Spirit of the gospel, going along with the ministry of the gospel, giveth life spiritual and life eternal.

Matthew Henry is speaking of the Gospel's life-changing power in contrast to the law's condemning power. This passage has nothing to do with how God guides people, and should not be treated as such.

[b]And so were the churches established in the faith, and increased in number daily. Now when they had gone throughout Phrygia and the region of Galatia, and were forbidden of the Holy Ghost to preach the word in Asia, Act 16:5,6[/b]

Again, you have to make assumptions to make this passage say what you want it so say. This could have been similar to Peter's vision of the animals being clean in Acts 10. How do you know it wasn't an audible voice or a vision?

[b]Joh 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.[/b]

They will hear his voice in the sense of Romans 8:29-30. They are the elect (sheep), God opens their hearts to receive the gospel, and in that sense, they hear His voice. Jesus is contrasting the sheep (elect) with the Pharisees whom he declares are not his sheep. They cannot hear his voice, they cannot accept the Gospel, they have no desire to obey the Gospel. These verses are a matter of believing the Gospel or not and why certain people believe. These verses are not speaking of how some people are guided by inward thoughts and some are not.

[b]Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?[/b]

The Lord's people often do have their hearts burning with passion, desire, and emotion. This still has nothing to do with being guided by inward thoughts.

The passage about casting lots also says nothing about being guided by inward voices.

------------------------------------

[b]Regarding how this works in prayer[/b] -- I'll offer some insight from my life.

Some major things I pray for are: God's kingdom would come to earth and His will be done on earth as it is in heaven, daily provision, sanctification, forgiveness, understanding of His Scripture, and for the salvation of others.

Which one of these requires an an answer in my mind? I don't see any that do. Which one of the petitions in the Lord's prayer requires an answer via thoughts in my mind? None.

The Lord has already answered them in the Scripture. "Those who hunger and thirst for righteousness shall be filled", "Of the increase of His government shall be no end", "Do not worry for your life", "For all these things (clothes, food) do the nations of the world seek after: and your Father knoweth that ye have need of these things."

[b]This has always been the Lords great controversy with his creatures, that they do not know Him in the manner and ways that he would have us to.[/b]

Exactly. Some worship a god according to what they feel, and some worship God according to what He commands. I am not implying you are worshiping a false god, but I do think that the Lord has provided a perfect Scripture as our guide, and it is sufficient to guide me in all situations.

My fathers in the faith sealed this truth with their blood. I know this may come off "cold" on an online message board, but I'm really passionate about the fact that the Scripture is sufficient. I'm against dead, cold mental assent to facts just as well as you. I just don't feel being passionate , joyful, and fervent for our Lord requires listening to inward thoughts and suggestions. The Scripture is what made the disciple's hearts burn within them, and understanding that Scripture is what makes my heart burn with passion.

Also, I am passionate about this because I have been through this myself. I know what the confusion is like of trying to discern inward voices. I know people are often burdened because the inward voices in their mind harass them constantly with demands and obligations that throw them into a works-driven trap. I also know that people are often on the other end of the spectrum, walking in ungodliness because they feel that the Lord doesn't really hate sin that much. I am striving to proclaim freedom from both of these pits. Freedom from trying to discern your inward feelings and suggestions, and turning to a perfect Scripture that is sufficient to make the man of God complete.


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Taylor Otwell

 2008/6/1 13:00Profile





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