I left off reading about and looking at whats-his-name for the reasons I give below under prayer. Last night my love for SI brothers and sisters moved me to check in on how all are doing. This morning Natan4Jesus (another thread) prompted this post.
[u]Crsschk wrote[/u]: [i]Had the same reaction, it is not "all good" whatsoever, but just it's opposite. Have been giving this all much thought and much pain ... There are roots in this whole business that need to be exposed and uprooted, torn out. I am thinking collectively of the whole matter of this construct; The 'prophets' and man of the hour as Katz would have put it, the notions and runaway ... carnality of inward thought and action. The frivolity and disrespect ... the lack of just pure shame. Hope somehow I can articulate this, why it crushes and grieves so deeply[/i].....The Spirit of God, the very heart of Him is so grieved just as His Spirit and heart in you is deeply grieved. And the weight of sin, the press of the onslaught of the wicked one is like a crushing wall of concrete, the burden of prayer and your heart of Christ has gotten under it. And the grieving of God and the onslaught is not limited to Lakeland.
[u]An aside[/u]? I saw a picture on the front cover of a book titled Repent. It was a drawing of the whole earth, with a noxious weed, the size of a continent, ripped out of it by a hand. Just that picture and the title. That about catches it for me (dealing with the root Crsschk spoke of, [i]up rooted, torn out[/i]). Though I pray for revival there are times I think I am praying for His return.
[u]Brothertom[/u]: The thievery of it, the bold-faced thievery of it, stirs Brothertom to want to overturn a thousand tables of moneychangers and sellers of doves to the poor and little ones. Sellers of doves!!!
[u]Ginnyrose[/u] (recent on a thread with what's-his-name as the title) wrote: [i]pray fervently for false teachers? Do the scriptures record any such conversions in all its history? Does church history?[/i]... The only change I ever heard of was what Hank Hanagraph saw after more than 7 years of persistently presenting (hammering?) the Word of God to any and all of the World Wide Church of God (correct the name if I have that wrong). Some leaders and many followers separated and publicly testified. I am sure Hank prayed but that was not his public focus. So to your question, I would have to say not in the observable world.
[u]On prayer[/u]: I did pray -- what most would mean by pray. Particularly for the little ones. But the nature and focus of my prayer has changed over this time. (The last I saw was a young man on the stage from Scotland naively asking for and getting some to take back to Scotland. That did it. Not Scotland! (No! Not by a long shot! No sir-ee!) For one thing, now my back is to them and I pray not so much that they would dry up. More like how David prayed sometimes. Probably only KrispyKrittr would not think this prayer too rough: A public, Glory to God, end to this, one way (repentance/salvation) or the other. Prayer regarding Lakeland is rare and short now. I have not sensed our Father's displeasure but I am open to correction. My focus is for God to manifest His Holiness in Revival. Without it, (among 1000 other things), who will care for all the injured. Pray for Revival is over-riding and much.
Last night I was thinking that we could use some organization or one place to point someone to who "pops in." A gentle nudge that keeps a sharp focus. Sounds very difficult to me.
| 2008/7/28 12:25||Profile|
There will be a lot of open doors, when the deflation factor hits those that were previously pumped.
Tom, I hope you are right...reckon I am a tad bit negative about this knowing full well how this type of thing can sour people on 'religion'. On the other hand, if God's hand is on that person, it will happen. One thing it is doing for sure is it is exposing who the sheep are and the who the goats are.
Do you all know anything about the nature of sheep and goats? The animals, I mean. Dad used to raise sheep when I was a young girl and I loved them. They were easily tamed and would follow you just like "Mary who had a little lamb." It was fun watching the lambs frolicking, playing. But generally, adult sheep were a tad bit boring in contrast to goats.
Goats will eat anything. If someone has some brush who wants it cleaned out, put some goats in there and they will do it. They are adventuresome, will get themselves into predicaments and then cry "BAAAAA"! and will keep crying until you get them out. And they will climb up on things they have no business doing....just thinking about our goat who would climb up on to my husbands pick-up hood, or climb the stairway in the shop and could not get down...The similarities to people is striking, and no wonder Jesus calls his people sheep and the others goats...and as the creator of sheep and goats the analogy fits.
In the meantime one must be ever on the alert to assist those who have become delusioned because of the deception they had fallen under. Wise words, Tom.
| 2008/7/28 17:43||Profile|
Las Vegas, NV
| Re: Todd's other teachings|
Jimbabwean: I'll leave you to decide for yourself. I am confident you'll be able to discern what Todd is all about.
Brief excerpts from one of TB's "other teachings".
[b]SOZO[/b] - Salvation, Deliverance, and Healing
Author: Todd Bentley
"But He was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our iniquities; the chastisement for our peace was upon Him, and by His stripes we are healed ... [u]This passage of Scripture talks about healing more than it does forgiveness of sin[/u]."
"We must see Him as the victorious Christ who rose up on the third day with resurrection power, [u]sin, sickness, disease, and death[/u]."
(When I read this statement I am reminded of John Lennon's dubious "If it gets to destruction you can count me out -- in".)
"I believe in the doctor. I believe God wants to heal all. And if God wants to use a doctor, God can do that. He gave them the gift. He gave them medicine and science. [u]Some of it is from the pits of hell, but God has blessed it[/u]."
"Healing and freedom from sickness and disease [u]is the same as forgiveness of sins[/u]."
Yes, I would say we can discern this for ourselves. When I unfortunately happen to read stuff like this by TB or anything that comes from those who are associated in that ministry, I am reminded of this:
16. And it came to pass, as we went to prayer, a certain damsel possessed with a spirit of divination met us, which brought her masters much gain by soothsaying:
17. The same followed Paul and us, and cried, saying, These men are the servants of the most high God, which shew unto us the way of salvation.
18. And this did she many days.
How distrubing to hear the adversary declaring the salvation of God in Christ Jesus with his own words.
| 2008/8/17 18:07||Profile|
| Re: The Lakeland Outpouring & Todd Bentley by Stormharvest|
That is the first Christ-like refutation of the "Lakeland Outpouring" that I have read.
It is clear, concise, and most importantly, buttressed by Scripture.
It is not shrill, hard or hysterical. God bless brothers Holmes and Medway for their crystal clear discernment, and for you Lisa for sharing this.
| 2008/8/18 5:56|
Hopefully now that this knucklehead's "revival" is dying down we will hear less and less about it. However, we should study this from a hindsight perspective and be aware that more and more bizarre things are going to be embraced by many Christian so-called.
| 2008/8/18 9:17|
Berthoud, Colorado, USA
Along these lines, Brother Zac just wrote an article on [url=http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=24975&forum=34&1]Deception and Counterfeit Revival[/url] (posted in the "Articles" forum) -- a must read!
I was especially challenged by his exposition on Matthew 7:13-27 in this context -- the first time I've ever heard it put that way.
Santosh David Poonen
| 2008/8/27 13:52||Profile|
| Re: Sigh|
These leaders are blind to their double-mindedness. Does anyone in this leadership group know what Biblical repentance is? Being intimidated is as much sin as intimidating others. Intimidated deluded leadership, asleep and deluded congregations. How can this be? [u][b]Jude says how[/u][/b] and what believers are to do. They do not seem to be able to discern what their own words say.
Quoting the [url=http://www.olivetreeviews.org/]Reference:Weekly up-dates from Olive Tree Views [/url]
[b]The Needed Closure on Todd Bentley[/b] - Pastor Chris Elrod, Sr. Pastor, Compass Point Church, Lakeland, Florida
As I was on my way home from South Carolina last Thursday night, I got "the call." My friend and fellow Lakeland pastor let me know that the news about Todd Bentley -- the news that had circulated around Lakeland for weeks -- was finally about to break. For months it had been rumor with very little hard facts to back it up. Local church leaders had been hearing things about Todd and Ignited Church that caused us to question even more the validity of the "revival."
Then the truth began to come out bit by bit, first to Lakeland and then to the world, and now Todd's wife was in Canada getting help while he was "floating around" the United States trying to get his head together. Yes, Todd was legally separating from his wife. Yes, there was another woman involved. Yes, this was not the first time Todd had been involved with another woman.
Yes, Todd and Ignited Church had failed to address concerns -- many being voiced by their own denomination and people who support such outpourings -- about the heresy being preached and displayed at the "revival." Yes, there was not one single medical document to prove that any healing had actually taken place.
As the fallout continues and more facts are beginning to emerge about everyone involved with this mess, I have begun to ask myself some pretty hard questions. Did I handle this correctly?
When the first news began to break around here about Todd, healings, and the revival, I went to see it for myself. In all, I attended four separate "revival" meetings over a two-month period. I also watched countless hours of the events on the Internet. I witnessed Todd hollering "BAM" a lot. I witnessed "verification teams" in the parking lot carefully choosing people deemed candidates for "healing" while turning many others down. I watched ushers push ill children away from the stage area because they had not been preapproved for "healing."
I heard stories about pixie-dust-spreading angels and conversations with the Apostles in some abstract heavenly cabin. I saw leg drops, high kicks, head punches, and every other Wrestlemania cliche under the sun. I heard anonymous crazy stories about people being healed and others being raised from the dead. I heard and saw many strange things -- but nothing that even remotely kept with sound doctrine. Every biblical-discerning bone in my body showed me that there was nothing going on at the "revival" that was in keeping with God's Word.
I began to speak out against the revival, Todd, and Ignited Church, to our people. Mainly it was through our Journey Groups, one-on-one conversations, phone calls, and e-mails. However, I was advised by several other pastors not to speak out against it publicly because "I might be speaking against something that God is actually doing" (I wasn't questioning God -- I was questioning Todd). I never addressed it from the pulpit because our podcast is heard by hundreds of people all over the world. I never blogged about it because I get a 1,000+ hits on a normal day.
I dodged the questions about the revival in recent radio interviews I did in other parts of the United States. Finally, I refused to answer the hundreds of e-mails I got about the "revival" from other folks all over the world. In essence, I protected my flock from the three-ring circus and hoopla but did nothing to protect the Body of Christ as a whole.
Hindsight they say is 20/20. It now turns out that all of the rumors were true. It now turns out that the scriptural discernment was correct. It now turns out that this was the same craziness without accountability that the leadership of the sponsoring church is known for. The three-ring circus has been packed up, the tents have been taken down, and the moral failure has been announced. Everyone involved is pushing back, and thousands of hurting people are left questioning God and their salvation.
The question that I now have to ask myself and the question that will haunt me for quite a while is this. Did I sit on the sidelines while the playing field burned? Should have I blogged about it and spoken out about it publicly -- done more to get the word out to the rest of the world that this whole thing was about Todd and not God? I took care of my own house -- but should I have done more to take care of the entire neighborhood?
Charismatic leader Dutch Sheets also humbled himself stating, "My assignment from the Lord is to repent on behalf of the leadership of the Charismatic Body of Christ. We have failed the Lord and His people in many ways. We must repent if we are to be trusted in the future. We, the leaders of the Charismatic community, have operated in an extremely low level of discernment. Frankly, we often don't even try to discern. We assume a person's credibility based on gifts, charisma, whether they can prophesy, or work a miracle."
Sigh. [b]IS THERE NO FEAR OF GOD[/b]? For these Pastors I can pray.
| 2008/8/27 14:52||Profile|
Taken from Dutch Sheets apology letter (link provided below)
[url=http://www.dutchsheets.org/images/images_A2521/A_Statement_and_Appeal_Regarding_Lakeland.pdf]Dutch Sheets Apology[/url]
"I dont believe anyone is expecting perfection from usI know Im not. Were far too human for that. But we are expected to have enough humility to look the world and those who follow us in the eye when we miss it and say, we were wrong and we are sorry. Our careless accountability has caused the body of Christ to be spiritually raped and abused. It has produced disillusionment and brought immeasurable reproach to our God and cynicism to His message. Concerning Lakeland, what was called the greatest revival since Azusa Street has become possibly one of the greatest reproaches. We, the leaders of the charismatic church, are responsible.
For not accepting and acknowledging our responsibility, for caring more about our own reputation than Christs, I repent to God and ask forgiveness of the body of Christ."
| 2008/8/27 18:33||Profile|
(Edit: I am convicted to admit that I am unable to understand fully what is going on here...and that avoidance rather then criticism is more healthy.)
May I remember what it is to repent and not play at it.
| 2008/8/27 20:23||Profile|
(edit; let me just avoid this event.)
And everyone who has this hope fixed on Him purifies himself, just as He is pure. 1 John 3
| 2008/8/27 21:40||Profile|