So, what does Scripture say?

Proverbs 17:15: He that justifieth the wicked, and he that condemneth the just, even they both are abomination to the LORD.

Jesus takes this concept one step further in dealing with fence-sitting: Rev 3:16: "So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spew thee out of my mouth."

This is the final authority.
ginnyrose

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Sandra Miller

Brother, I don't have to have a "watchdog ministry" to "name names", when error and deceivers arise, I just need the love of God so that those I do love are not destroyed by the liar.[or the lie.]

Without being specific in warning, how is one to know exactly what is poison, or is not? We teach our children in very specific details on events and people[ or at least we should, if we love them] so that they will not be hurt or taken in.

And no, it is [b]NOT[/b] the media's obligation to mark those who bring heresies among the church, but the holy brothers and sisters and shepherds who understand that there is death afoot, and it must be absolutely identified and specifically avoided, at any cost.

Remember Cain's reply to the Lord, upon inquiry as to his murdered brother's whereabouts. "Am I my brother's keeper?" I am sorry if you cannot see this, but the rhetorical question the Lord imposed upon Cain was delivered not because he did not know of Abel's murder, but to expose the black assassin inside of Cain.

If we love our brother, as to the commandment, then we surely do not want him destroyed, do we? Should we warn in unspecific terms, or kind of hint a bit?" Well, this deceiver is six foot one, and has tattoos from head to toe, oh yeah, he has an IMP, about 20 inches high tattooed on his leg, and he may converse with female demons who look like fairies, and he lies, and enjoys loves dark, hellish music......but I can't tell you who.....you might want to watch it now.."

We are admonished to "keep" or brother, to be his or her shepherd. The Deacon's and Elders are commanded to watch over the flock with greater responsibility, as they care for Souls, to protect them, and this is always direct and specific. If the shepherds do not, they are judged by a higher standard, with more severity.

Your attitude is naive to suggest that it should work out on it's own, or that we should wait for Apostolic authority to name names. How long should we wait? Will you give me the number of a qualified modern day apostle please? He will surely identify all of the wolves for me.

To be honest, most of the rest of your post seemed contradictory...a yes name and do not name, all in one sentence. Loving is also protecting, and that must be done in sobriety and clarity, for in the long run, lives are at stake.

Brothertom, you are Christ-like in all your behavior from what I have seen in all of your posts. You speak truth and I have little doubt that you grieved over Cain's fall from grace and have most likely interceded with prayers in a more fervent manner than his 'busy colleagues' who have entrusted an International Team of apparent 'spiritual surgeons' while off chasing territorial spirits (Chuck Pierce) and endorsing a deceptive and false movement. Mike Bickle confessed that he enabled Bob Jones during his sinful indiscretions back in the early 90's when Mr. Jones used his status as a man of God to manipulate women into disrobing in front of him, which is a more grievous offense given that he used his status inappropriately to engage in the sin. Mr. Bickle admitted to promoting Bob Jones in error. Now we see Bob Jones back in ministry anointing Bentley by taking hold of his hand and evidently taking him to the 3rd heaven. This restoration process sounds more and more like the Roman Catholic method of 'hide the offender' and re-release after 'The Church' has deemed them 'healed', 'cured', or simply completing the 'necessary requirements'. A panel of high profile pastors did a test on Ted Haggard and determined that 'he is not a homosexual'. I got news for these 'anointed ones'. At the very moment Haggard was engaging in the conduct of homosexuality he was a homosexual. This 'Church induced face saving technique' of splitting hairs with sin is in itself, sinful. Subsequently, Haggard has been asking for money to put he and his wife through school because they are both pursuing a degree in psychology. What's my point? My point is that these ‘restoration’ tests and processes are developed more out of man's wisdom than God's power. Jesus said that those 'who hunger and thirst for righteousness WILL BE FILLED'. I don't think these teams of spiritual clinicians were around when He made this promise. Nor were they around when Jacob wrestled with God all night before he was changed from a sup planter and swindler into a man of God. And before I'm called into question about 'judging others' let me say that I have judged no one, I've simply made some observations. I’ve been judged more harshly for simply speaking against this false movement than I’ve ever judged anyone for a besetting sin or stronghold. If Cain and Haggard sincerely repent and are filled again with righteousness that comes for God then I am all for it. But both men have seemingly engaged in trying to figure out a sin problem through extra-biblical means that combines God with secular psychology. If the lawsuit allegation is true concerning Cain then to me this is tantamount to blackmail, not a right to earn a living. This does not appear to be conduct of someone who has the life of God within him…no this is the kind of stuff we see from politicians….act as if you’ve been victimized by the very consequences which stem from your own wrongdoing. And how arrogant is it for someone who has fallen as Cain has to assume that they still have this ‘anointed mantle’ to pass along to anyone else, let alone the authority to give it? I find this ridiculousness to be highly inappropriate and disturbing


But ponder this: Suppose the Pope came out with a ‘prophetic vision’ from Rome stating that the angel “Emma” (who Bentley and Jones refer to often) was actually the Virgin Mary and will soon make a prophetic calling for deliverance and encourages all denominations to come together in unity under the Roman Catholic church. Would the Latter Rain Prophets sanction this? If not, how might they dispute it? By challenging the prophecy on a Scriptural basis? Well as we all know there is no ‘angel Emma’ in the Bible, nor are there descriptions of being transported into heaven through a ‘portal’ in the form of a pillar of fire to be operated on in ‘beings in white coats’ as they take your organs and sow into you ‘truth’…as this man Bentley has claimed to have been….the same man Cain has appeared to have allied himself with by ‘passing the mantle’.


Brothers, let us reason here. I mean who needs the Word of God if the truth can be sown into us by obscure heavenly beings in white coats? Does this sound like God? Does this take the form of a patient/intimate relationship that the Lord developed over those He used mightily in Scripture when Moses, David, Joseph and the like spent all that time in the wilderness (yes, I would call prison ‘wilderness’ in Joseph’s case)? Yes the Apostle Paul did take a trip to the 3rd heaven but not by anyone else and after he paid many dues to the Father. Look at the passage closely, after he describes it Paul goes into much detail to put the experience in perspective so as not to boast in himself. Do we see this kind of humility? Or do we see one story after another about ‘my experience’?

As far as naming names, I respect our Brother’s position. However, Paul himself did this: 2 Timothy 4:14 “Alexander the metalworker did me a great deal of harm. The Lord will repay him for what he has done”.


I personally have a family member who is currently deceived by this blatant absurdity and I don’t want it to happen to anyone else so if I have to name names, I’LL NAME NAMES. No offense to you personally brother. O’Lord please bring your deceived out of their spiritual slumber…have mercy on us all!!!

Thank you for your insights. I think there is no other reasonable course for a true brother or sister, than to clearly express our concern if we see disaster coming. We are obligated out of love to name and reveal that coming disaster.

I want to make a confession here, of a sin that held me, that you reminded me of. I held Paul Cain in such a high esteem, that it was akin to idolatry, surpassing the mandates of scriptural honor given to the brothers and sisters in Christ's body.

I, subconsciously, equated this amazing gifting in my brother, with Christ himself. I do not mean I believed Paul Cain was Divine, but I associated the anointing in him, with the gifting, as sacred, and as it seemed at times as he would prophesy, God himself would be talking through him. I had set Paul on a pedestal. I would not have admitted it, but now I see it.

Remember Paul the apostles response when churchmembers began to break off, each following his or her's favorite leader."Is Christ divided?, Was Paul crucified for you? Who is Appolos, or for that matter, me??? [b]NOTHING![/b]

The ministry model for the "anointing", and for the prophetic movement has always been a separate and elitist doctrine,[always acted upon, never preached.] They would never, nor will never, just "be a brother[or sister].

They will not participate in fellowship, nor in relationships with the least of the brothers. To them, it is beneath their sacred calling. The entire prophetic movement was, and is steeped in this professional and elitist identity, even as I speak.

The effect is, that the Prophet himself becomes cut off from the very grace he needs to survive, [b]AS[/b] a brother, because life and protection flow within the body, [b]AS[/b] each joint and ligament supplies. This applies to the pastoral ministry also, which is why you see so much perversion and immaturity in their ranks today. They have cut themselves off from graces that they need to survive, by their own self imposed elitism, or professionalism.

Paul Cain had bodyguards. He was so far above the common brother or sister in relationship, that he looked on high down to the clouds. It wasn't all his fault. I am partly to blame. I had my head in the clouds holding him higher. I am repenting, the hard way.[Is there any other?]

Brothertom,

It is easy to get caught up in following a man (men) instead of God. I listen to sermons more than spending time with God at times. The enemy opposes relationship with God which is why fellowship with others is a little easier. I got caught up a little in the word-faith thing awhile back and although I repented of that like you have, God works it out for the good as He promises. We are more discerning than we used to be because of our errors. Thanks for your post Brother.

[b][color=660000] He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him. [/color][/b]


- John 7:18(KJV)


[b][color=660000]I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.[/color][/b]

- John 5:30(KJV)




[b][color=660000]I have many things to say and to judge of you: but he that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him. [/color][/b]

- John 8:26(KJV)

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Christopher Joel Dandrow

Krispy,

I take great offense at the way you generalize and say "these IHOP people" and put them all in the same boat...that is blantantly unjust! God has raised up IHOP which has been instrumental in raising up houses of prayer all over the world which are filled with people who have a passion for interceding and seeking God. It is a gross injustice to flippantly make such statements and discredit the entire ministry just becasue a few who were associated with it have fallen into sin. I assure you the people of IHOP are NOT on a forum like this bashing others, they're hidden in a prayer room, crying out to God 24/7 to purify His bride and to glorify the name of Jesus.

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Sandra Miller

I am not speaking for Krispy , or for anyone but myself here.

IHOP, and Mike Bickle especially, have as much Godly integrity as anyone I have ever known, or heard of, in the body of Christ. To bundle them with people that that have committed sin, or that have fell into deception, that were at one time associated with Kansas city Fellowship, or IHOP, is just wrong, and absurd.

It could be akin to Peter being blamed for being a liar, and greedy, for the sin of Ananias and Sapphira, after they dropped dead, because they were part of the same church...It would be like the Apostle Paul being blamed for the wicked acts of the Pastors that he exposed in Acts 20, and warned the future church of, "Well, they went to Paul's church at Ephesus!"


Of course, it is absurd. In the 80s and 90s, Kansas City fellowship, which became Metro Vineyard, hosted hundreds of thousands visitors, with thousands flocking world wide, to join up with the prophetic movement there. Bob Jones and Paul Cain, being prophets, also came, and despite the apparent and current deception that both of them concur with today, they were a great blessing to all, then, and somewhat foundational in that church, and received worldwide.[generally]

Paul Cain received the ihop vision, in a unique prophetic encounter with the Lord. [ihope], with evangelism coming.

Both Bob Jones and Paul Cain fell into sin. Both were publicly subjected to a Godly course of restoration by their peers; a board of mature elders. Both eventually rejected that process, and went their own way. How then can anyone accuse the church of participation, or endorsing their corruption? In fact, the exact opposite course was taken to restore the fallen unto a return to holiness and ministry.

I hope that when you refer to "a forum like this bashing others", that you likewise would not generalize that this forum is focused on destroying those that we might disagree with, or criticizing others to aggrandize our selves.

There is a wave of deception sweeping the world at the present, and exposing it for what it is must also include exposing the individuals perpetuating it, in light of the Word of God, and the agreement of biblical discernment by the Spirit of God. [The word and the Spirit agree].


The Lord Jesus's ministry was filled with warnings about individuals and movements. John the Babtist, Peter, Paul, and Jude, to name a few, spent much of their time doing so, so that the church would not be mixed with deception, sin, and death. That is what this current discussion is really about.

If you are going to engage in public ministry, you must be able to accept a public examination as to the Christian fruit, and doctrine of your ministry. It is the Body's duty to do so, other wise Satan would get a free lunch, everyday. [sadly, often he does.] [b]This is that.[/b]

I might add, "blessed are the unoffended", and if you believe in hidden intercession, please forgive us for offending you, and please pray and cry out for God to purify me more and my friends on this forum...thanks..

Thank you, Brothertom, for your kind response and for helping to clarify what I trying to say in my post. I understand what the discussion was about, but I took issue with the manner in which Krispy generalized and put everyone associated with IHOP in bad light.

I especially appreciate your validation of Mike Bickle and IHOP, because this ministry has been severely bashed on this forum in previous threads...and I have nothing but the highest regard for this ministry and the message it preaches. Mike Bickle is a man who could be travelling the world as a big name conference speaker, but he prefers staying in KC, spending time in the prayer room. He's being faithful to his calling as an intercessor.