SermonIndex Audio Sermons
Image Map
Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : What is the Balance between the two?

Print Thread (PDF)

Goto page ( Previous Page 1 | 2 | 3 Next Page )
PosterThread









 Re: What is the Balance between the two?

First off...I love your question, and after listening to a sermon by Paul Washer: "The Acropolis of the Christian Faith", (it deals with this exact question) I have come to believe it is the core of Christianity.

I don't think there needs to be a balance between the two. God's wrath and God's love (as demonstrated through the Cross) are two Christian truths that exist simultaneously.

God IS angry with the wicked everyday, and yet, He also justifies the wicked.

And , as Paul Washer points out, what takes the question even further is that, according to Proverbs 17:15...it is an abomination to justify the wicked.

So.. 1. God is angry with the wicked
2. He justifies the wicked (declares them righteous)
3. And it is an abomination to justify the wicked

As someone already pointed out, the Wrath of God is very much a judicial anger towards sin based upon His own character. He is Just. He is Righteous, therefore He hates all sin. The wrath of God is revealed from heaven against ALL unrighteousness. There is no getting around it...God MUST be angry with the wicked everyday, or He is not God.

But who are the wicked? Well, we know, because of the light of the New Testament, that the wicked are all those "outside of Christ". All those, not "in Christ" abide under the Wrath and Anger of God. (fearful thought if you really think about it)

Concerning the Love of God; it is true that we, who have been saved, do experience the love of the Father in, at times, a very real and tangible way. His love is shed abroad in our hearts, which causes us to even "feel" love for those who are lost. But I do not think we can define God's love (as demonstrated in the Cross) as some arbitrary "feeling" of love that He has for the wicked.

God so loved the world that He gave His only Son. For what purpose? To show us how much he really, really loves us? No.

He gave His only Son to be a propitiation for us. He who knew no sin, became sin and bore the Wrath of God for us. God poured out His Wrath and anger for the wicked upon His own Son. God became a man and dealt with the problem Himself.
Oh, the Glorious Gospel!

So...

1. God can still be angry with the wicked everyday because those outside of Christ still abide under the wrath of God (...he that believes not is condemned already...)

2. He can justify the wicked because, in His mercy, He chose to be the propitiation for us.

3. God is not an abomination because He did not pass over sin. In righteousness He judged sin in the Son. He is still a just and righteous Judge.

So the issue is not with God, but it is with men.

As Hebrews states:

For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

If a man rejects the Love of God revealed through the cross, the only thing left for that man is judgment.

 2008/5/22 8:26
ginnyrose
Member



Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7474
Mississippi

 Re:

Mahoney, your declaration that

Quote:
God IS angry with the wicked everyday, and yet, He also justifies the wicked.



does not square with Scripture, does it? The wicked are turned into hell. It is the righteous He justifies, not the wicked....A righteous person is one who recognizes his sin, repents and turns to God. This earns for him the distinction of being a saint vs a sinner. Nowhere do we read where God's redeemed are called sinners nor wicked.

Mattie, Your original question about God's wrath vs his love, how compatible are they?

Are you a mom? It might help here if you consider this: you do all you can for your child. You sacrifice, you teach, you feed, you cloth him/her, do everything to help you child do the right thing. Now, if your child turns and rebels at you and everything you have done for him/her, how would you react? You so desperately want the child to do the right thing, but he/she refuses and spurns you and chooses rather to do what is harmful and destructive. Now, would this not evoke in you anger at this child? Sure it would. God is called "Our Father" and the saints "child/children" indicating a relationship similar to the human relationships of parent and child with its accompanying emotions.

When I see the wickedness of man I can understand God's wrath and anger and some of it rubs off on me, too. However, knowing that I am very incapable of acting out justly in expressing this, I know I must back off and allow God to deal with it. And He will. Read Revelation 6:10: "And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?"

There can be no mercy without wrath.

Hope this helps...

Blessings,
ginnyrose


_________________
Sandra Miller

 2008/5/22 8:56Profile









 Re:

Quote:
It is the righteous He justifies, not the wicked



Are you sure about that? With all due respect ginnyrose, if that is what you believe concerning the Gospel, then you have missed the Gospel.

The righteous do not need to be justified. This really comes down to defining biblical terms. This is the reason why Theology and doctrine are so important.

The point of the entire first 3 chapters of Romans is to convince us that there is "NONE RIGHTEOUS"...NO NOT ONE. A righteous person is one who has kept the law of God perfectly.

Paul concludes their is none righteous, and then goes on in chapter 4 to show how God justifies (declares righteous) the undgodly. Yes, Romans 4:5 says that God justifies the ungodly...the wicked. That's you...that's me, outside of Christ.

Quote:
5But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.



Justification means - to declare righteous. God by His Word, declares the ungodly...Righteous. How? By faith in Christ. Just as Abraham believed God and it was accounted unto him as righteousness. The righteousness of Christ is imputed to us...put to our account...when we believe on Him. We do not become righteous, we are declared righteous by God on account of Christ. God can do this and not be unjust because He poured out His wrath, that was due us, upon His Son.

Didn't Jesus say: They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Was it not the wicked publican that went home from the temple justified and not the "righteous" Pharisee.


Oh yes, God justifies the wicked, for there is no one else whom He can justify.

 2008/5/22 11:38
Lor_E
Member



Joined: 2006/12/23
Posts: 248
Montana USA

 Re:

Isn’t that funny how people view the same term differently? When I see balance I consider “the remainder”....I realize that’s not what you mean of course, I think I understand in part what you are asking. How can one weigh the righteous anger of God and the love of God, as in a balance scale, to clarify it? (Is that somewhat correct?)

Firstly, if one were to put the righteousness and holiness of God in one side of the scale, His perfect character, His anger toward the wicked (but not the ‘hatred‘ necessarily of the sinner- but His hatred of the sin: God is angry with the wicked every day, but He does not delight in the death of the wicked.), the Righteous Judgment of God upon those who have caused offense both towards Himself and towards others, the HUGE weight of the curse of sin and death upon humanity at large; WOW! Quite the tip of the scales!

**We must remember that the wicked do not only cause themselves problems, the things God hates, seven are an abomination to Him:
A proud look... (such as in 1 John “the pride of life”);
a lying tongue (think of the damage that thing alone has done to others!);
and hands that shed innocent blood (not simply those who take the life of the unborn- but those that take the life of any living soul who has done nothing to deserve it with malice and hatred, as it says in another place “those that lie in wait“);
an heart that deviseth wicked imaginations (watch out you entertainment industry that stir up the imaginations of lust, anger, revenge, murder, and the like!);
feet that be swift in running to mischief (bad enough to have 1 to cause trouble for others, but when many gang up to join into mischief what terrible consequences can that have?);
a false witness that speaketh lies (taking deception to a whole new level and causing another person grief and much trouble by, in your heart, choosing to lie about that person);
and he that soweth discord among brethren (My haven’t we all seen the devastating effects of that!!! in churches, families, Bible study groups?).

Yet, how can we find a counterbalance to the sinful, judgment bound human condition? ONLY in Christ!! As someone earlier stated : For God so LOVED the WORLD that He gave His only begotten Son..... It is not that we have first loved God, but that He has loved us and given us a “mercy seat”, a propitiation for our sins.

The cross represents the Love of God AND the Judgment of God on sinful humanity (when you view the cross see it as the perfect balance within that scale!) Christ received upon Himself the judgment for our sins, YES for the sins of the whole world. The balance of the righteous anger of God and the Love of God IS the Cross and the Christ on the cross who triumphed over the flesh, the sin nature of humanity, the wounds received from His friends, the anger of wicked men, the hatred of the enemy of our souls, even the end of the curse which is death! He is Victor over them all, and HE alone IS the place of perfect balance! He has the keys of death, hell and the grave. He has given, poured out upon ignorant (in the sense of the ignorance of it) humanity the absolute power of God in the grace of God to overcome, to be a child of God, to become a representative of God on the earth! That we might ALL have the opportunity to enjoy blessed fellowship with God on earth and an eternity together with Him in heaven!

Peace and grace in the Lord!


_________________
Lori Salyer

 2008/5/22 13:32Profile
Zionshield
Member



Joined: 2007/2/13
Posts: 135
Ohio

 Re:

Mahoney,

Can you demonstrate from scripture this quote? I do not think that wrath and anger are the same thing.

"God IS angry with the wicked everyday"

Also isn't this the reason in His own words He gave His only begotten Son..."God so loved the world..."?


_________________
Randy Lambert

 2008/5/23 0:24Profile
AshleyJnr
Member



Joined: 2006/6/17
Posts: 45
Guolburn, NSW Australia

 Re:

Quote:

ginnyrose wrote:
There can be no mercy without wrath.


I have thought about this before. I find it the most emotionally gruelling truth.

I also find that we use the word eternity so often, we often loose relevance of it's meaning.

I mean, the thought of many peoples existence right now such as injustice, abuse, war, poverty, etc. is enough to make me weep. But to consider that millions of people will endure much worse than these forever and ever. And millions of eons into the future they will still be enduring torment. And this is but the first day.

How can anyone ponder this dry eyed? I definantly cannot. It makes me think of what George Whitfield said "but if the bare mentioning of the torments is so shocking how terrible must the enduring of them be!" - which just makes me weep more.

Quote:

ginnyrose wrote:
There can be no mercy without wrath.


The flip side is that if God's wrath is so incredible. How incredible his mercy must be towards us!!!!!!! Not only have we escaped this wrath, but we have been made joint heirs. This is beyond comprehension.

I think about balance a lot. I think there is a balance between mercy and judgement. But I suppose I like to think of it as 2 wholes rather than 2 halves. I.e God is not half mercy, half judgement, but God is fully both.

If we fail to preach wrath, When we preach mercy, what weight will it carry? But if we fail to preach mercy, and only preach wrath have we really preached the gospel? After all, the gospel is good news.
What I do know, is that I can't seem to get my head around either wrath or mercy...but I am undone pondering them.

Blessings AJ

 2008/5/23 9:36Profile









 Re: Wrath and anger

Quote:
Can you demonstrate from scripture this quote? I do not think that wrath and anger are the same thing.




Since it probably would be easier to show a contrast, would you be willing to give scripture to show how the wrath and the anger of God differ?

Quote:
Also isn't this the reason in His own words He gave His only begotten Son..."God so loved the world..."?



I completely agree that it was the Love of God that moved God to send His only Son. It could be nothing else. The Love of God was demonstrated...revealed...at the cross, where He poured out His wrath and anger against sin upon His only Son. The purpose of the cross was not to show us how much God loves us. The purpose of the cross was to satisfy the Holy Justice of God which He graciously bore Himself. God's justice had to be satisfied, and because of His Love, He had mercy upon us and satisfied it Himself.

Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

Propitiation - That which propitiates; atonement or atoning sacrifice; specifically, the influence or effects of the death of Christ in appeasing the divine justice, and conciliating the divine favor.

 2008/5/25 14:19
Zionshield
Member



Joined: 2007/2/13
Posts: 135
Ohio

 Re:

hello Mahoney,

thank you for your response. I have a couple studies I need to take care of, but afterwards as I have time I will do this.


_________________
Randy Lambert

 2008/5/26 15:06Profile









 Re: What is the Balance between the two?

There isnt a balance... God's mercy is 93% of His character... His judgement is 7%.

I'm just guessing at the percentages, but I am close.

Krispy

 2008/5/26 16:33
bonni
Member



Joined: 2005/8/9
Posts: 100
montana usa

 Re:

I think that this scripture deals directly with God's character,

Exodus34:6,7 "And the Lord passed by before him, and proclaimed, The Lord, The Lord God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth, Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation."

God's heart is mercy, but His justice demands that He cannot clear the guilty. Therefore He took their penalty upon Himself (Jesus, God in the flesh) so we could recieve his forgiveness, and all that He in His lovely, glorious character desired to lavish upon us. The thing that will keep us from receiving His mercy is if we reject the "pardon" He has offered us in His Son...if we love darkness rather than light , because our deeds are evil. Then we will be storing up God's wrath against us in the day of judgement.


God IS love, and God is perfect justice.

Lori,
I love your insight, it is a gift to the body of Christ for sure.



blessings to all, bonni


_________________
Bonni

 2008/5/26 18:26Profile





©2002-2020 SermonIndex.net
Promoting Genuine Biblical Revival.
Affiliate Disclosure | Privacy Policy