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Mattie
Member



Joined: 2004/7/23
Posts: 210


 What is the Balance between the two?

I'm one who's always asking questions. I'm always looking for balance among God's people, whether in church practice, preaching or the studying of the Word. I used to be extreme on particular points, but I'm learning to find common ground and see the balance. For example, I used to be very extreme of being zealous and committed to God (which is important of course), but I failed to bring the balance of God's love and commitment to us even when we fail being committed.

One question I'm seeking the balance to is the correlation between God being angry at the wicked everyday, and His holy hatred for the wicked, along with the demonstration of His love through the cross while we were still yet SINNERS (or wicked).

It shows a hatred of God for the wicked, and yet a mercy and love of God for the wicked. What are your thoughts on this topic? What messages would you recommend that bring balance to them?

 2008/5/21 9:14Profile
Ruach34
Member



Joined: 2006/2/7
Posts: 296
Beijing

 Re: What is the Balance between the two?

Hey Mattie, pleae do not mistake 'looking for balance' with lukewarmness. My heart winces when I hear, "O, we just need to be balanced."
I agree that there are many poles on which people take a stand and this is wrong. Jesus came from a whole 'nother persepective and turned the world upside down. We can either take the worlds perspective or take God's kingdom perspective.

The latter perspective is as Jesus says, " I did not come to bring peace, but a sword..." This sword, to me, is an earnestness even zeal for God, His word and His Glory. Just like Phineas in Numbers 25, stayed the wrath of the Lord for the action he took against sin in the camp.

You ask:

Quote:
It shows a hatred of God for the wicked, and yet a mercy and love of God for the wicked. What are your thoughts on this topic? What messages would you recommend that bring balance to them?



I don't know if there is a 'balance'. This is God's view, His perspective, it His Glory! It is too high and lofty to make mere puffs at it with our intelligence. We stand daily before a Holy God, being His creation and have sought out our own devices (Ecc 7:29). therefore we incur the wrath of God upon ourselves and upon our sin/actions. We deserve this wrath, this punishment. Yet, God in His love and mercy, has sought a way for us to be rightly related to Him. A place that was ours at the first, but rejected it. We could not make ammends on our own. Christ Jesus not only made atonement/ammends for this wrath and submitted to the punishment, He sought it out for us. He walked towards that goal (the cross), he submitted himself to that end and subjected himself to sinful men that put him to death. And then they looked upon Him and said, "come down from there, if you are the Son of God."
Never realizing this was fulfilling all righteousness.

O, God, may we subject ourselves to the same path, the path of Humility, Love and Truth; which is in fact the way of Christ Himself. There is no greater honor for a man or woman, but this way. Lofty positions in IBM, rulers of nations, lawyers for presidents cannot compare to this way, it is too lofty. This way leaves the mouth a gape saying, "this one truly was the Son of God."

This statement is the response we must evoke from audiences in our preaching of the gospel! I don't think there is much 'balance' in it. It is the entire wrapping up of all things in one, Christ Jesus.

What thinkest thou?


_________________
RICH

 2008/5/21 10:02Profile









 Re:

There is a balance. A group of people being submitted to the Lordship of Jesus Christ and joined together against evil. The devil hates this because he don't have free reign to kill, steal and destroy when this happens. He will use ever ploy to twist God's Word and deceive, just as he did with Eve in the garden to set things up and allow him to take over so he can kill, steal and destroy. He is always smooth in this process. As the Bible says, he will masquerade himself as a angel of to do this. If he said hey guys, this is the devil speaking, listen to me, he would lose the battle.

 2008/5/21 10:22
Ruach34
Member



Joined: 2006/2/7
Posts: 296
Beijing

 Re:

moe_mac said:

Quote:
There is a balance.



I must not be understanding the whole balance thing, then. I am considering balance with lukewarmness.


Anyone...anyone...?


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RICH

 2008/5/21 11:04Profile
Mattie
Member



Joined: 2004/7/23
Posts: 210


 Re:

Ruach...

Why do you emphasize lukewarmness? Did I ever bring up anything about being lukewarm?

There is a difference between asking questions to test the character of God (as the Pharisees did) and asking honest questions ("Lord, what is the greatest of the commandments?") My questions are merely honest questions that are important to consider. I agree with you about lukewarmness. I believe in the truth of the Word and that it should never be compromised. However, being the finite beings we are, and serving an infinite God revealed in the Scriptures, we should humbly ask ourselves questions and search out the truth on the matter with the hopes of understanding God and His character more.

So, all this to say, I don't know where lukewarmness came from. However I think to be balanced is biblical. By balance, I don't mean compromise. I simply mean rightly dividing and understanding the word on a matter, exploring the context and coming to a truthful conclusion.

 2008/5/21 11:25Profile
tjservant
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Joined: 2006/8/25
Posts: 1658
Indiana USA

 Re:

Quote:
I must not be understanding the whole balance thing, then. I am considering balance with lukewarmness.



Lukewarm = compromise. Your hot is not hot. Your cold is not cold.

To me, balance implies hot and cold at the same time. Your hot is hot. Your cold is cold. They exist at the same time…in balance. Not compromised into a worthless mixture.

Just my 2 cents.


_________________
TJ

 2008/5/21 12:29Profile
Ruach34
Member



Joined: 2006/2/7
Posts: 296
Beijing

 Re:

Mattie said:

Quote:
Did I ever bring up anything about being lukewarm?



No, you said nothing about lukewarmness, nor am I charging you with such a deed. However, in my peasily (misspelled) little mind I see balance as right there, in the middle and lukewarm. However, I am seeing your point and that you are referring to 'balance' as rightly dividing the Word of God, right?

I guess anyone can construe, as myself did, that balance is a welcome sign to pluralism or syncretism. Or creating a place where all can agree.

So re-read my first response without the balance comments. You may find some congruity to your question.


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RICH

 2008/5/21 13:41Profile
Zionshield
Member



Joined: 2007/2/13
Posts: 135
Ohio

 Re: What is the Balance between the two?

Hello Mattie,

This is an excellent question. I would like to recommend for your reading "Knowing God" by J.I. Packer. He deals with this subject in one of his chapters. Perhaps I can give you a tad bit of what he wrote. When we think of His wrath we must seperate it from the human experience of being angry; for he is not hot tempered, cruel or irrational.

God's wrath is judicial, a controlled response to sin. (At this point I am leaving Packer's book) In John 3:18 we see that light has come into the world and that people reject the truth because they love sin. Notice in Romans 1:17-21: "God revealed, God is revealed, that which can be known of God is manifest in them, God has shown it to them, clearly seen, being understood, they knew God". Now in 1:21-32: God also gave them up, God gave them up, God gave them over to a reprobate mind." He gives them what they have chosen for themselves.

in vs.32 it says that "knowing the judgement of God...that they are worthy of death." In John 3:18 the decisive moment is a /krisis/ in the Greek, a choosing of life or death...to reject the truth for love of sin and incur God's wrath or believe and live without such sin in this life.

I do not believe that we can gather from this that God's wrath upon the wicked is synonymous with hatred for the wicked. Look at the close proximity vs. 18 is with the great vs. 16. He not only loved the world...He so loved it! He doesn't want anyone to perish. The text you used in Romans 5..."that he loved us while we were sinners"...we were the wicked ones that He so loved. I Thes. 1:10...Jesus delivers us from the wrath to come.


_________________
Randy Lambert

 2008/5/21 22:07Profile
Compton
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 2732


 Re:

Hi Mattie,

Quote:
One question I'm seeking the balance to is the correlation between God being angry at the wicked everyday, and His holy hatred for the wicked, along with the demonstration of His love through the cross while we were still yet SINNERS (or wicked).



Everyone must be sensible to some degree to ask this of themselves.

I have found some application in this parable.

Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants. And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents.

But forasmuch as he (the servant) had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made. The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all. Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt.

And the same servant went out, and found one of his fellow-servants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest. And his fellow-servant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.

But he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt. So when his fellow-servants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done.

Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me: shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellow-servant, even as I had pity on thee? And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses (Matthew 18:23-35).

Too often it is easy to see the wicked as getting away with sin, but sin always ends in terrible misery. In fact, it is the awful price of sin that often causes people to look to God, and in those times we are more ready to have compassion on them.

I think the compassion of a "merciful debtor" should be applied to one another. For instance one brother finds he has the means and grace for a street ministry, and soon his own clarity and readiness in this area makes him absolutely intolerant of other brethren who are not doing street ministry. He forgets the Lord was merciful in bringing him along to that point, and so he expects instantly from others what has taken him years to realize.

Just some thoughts,

MC


_________________
Mike Compton

 2008/5/21 22:51Profile









 Re: What is the Balance between the two?

Quote:

Mattie wrote:

It shows a hatred of God for the wicked, and yet a mercy and love of God for the wicked. What are your thoughts on this topic? What messages would you recommend that bring balance to them?



Mattie I think I understand your question and did not do a real good job in attempting to answer the question you asked the first time that I tried, so I'll try again
God has love for the wicked to be saved, but he will poor His wrath our on the wicked if they are not.
If the wicked put on the righteousness of Jesus and make Him both Lord and Savior, He will love them. If they choose not to, they will face His wrath. Before one can ever receive the love He has to offer, they must realize their wickedness and ask for mercy and grace. Everyone who has received His grace, mercy and love was wicked before the cross. God does not have any grandchildren. We must all come to the cross.
God wrath, God's Love. that's the balance.

 2008/5/21 23:00





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