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Miccah
Member



Joined: 2007/9/13
Posts: 1752
Wisconsin

 Re:

moe_mac wrote:

Quote:


I'm not angry with anyone, but the devil and his lies to people. By the way you haven't answered the question either and evidently you disagree or you wouldn't be urging me compromise against the truth.




If it needs to be known, I do agree with your views more then I do with the others, but just not in the way that it is being handled by you. I do not know enough about the subject to give a reply for or a refute against, thus I leave it up to others. If you want opinions, that I can give, but who really cares what my opinion is.;-)


Brother, this does need to be said. Disagreeing with you doesn't mean that people have subcombed to lies from the enemy. Believe it or not, the disagreements between the brothers/sisters and you [u]may[/u] mean that you are wrong instead of them (me included).

This is not a salvation issue.

Quote:
Love you to brother.



Now there is something that we can agree on. :-)


_________________
Christiaan

 2008/5/18 0:26Profile
pastorfrin
Member



Joined: 2006/1/19
Posts: 1406


 Re: Rabbit trails

Moe,
The one on the rabbit trail would be the one who justifies going to war, taking the lives of those Christ died for and basing it all on a portion of scripture where it is about faith in Jesus Christ to heal.


How would you explain your theology in light of Christ example, or that of His disciples.

1 Peter 2:21-23
For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: [22] Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth: [23] Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously:

There are countless teachings and examples in Christ own words that shoot your one scripture theology out of the water.
Why, if Jesus thought it was necessary for us to be soldiers to be His Disciples did He not teach us to do so?

Your theology teaches that Jesus should rebuke all who have died for His sake because they were caring a Bible instead of a carnal weapon.

There is recorded but one instance where a disciple of Christ used a carnal weapon and he was immediately rebuked by Jesus:

Matthew 26:52
Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.

We are taught
2 Cor. 10:4
(For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;)

Ephes. 6:10-18
Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might. [11] Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. [12] For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. [13] Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. [14] Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness; [15] And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace; [16] Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked. [17] And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God: [18] Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;

Galatians 5:22-26
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, [23] Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. [24] And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. [25] If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. [26] Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.

The only sword we are commanded to use is the Sword of the Spirit, and that my dear brother is the one we should stick to.

Jesus said: Matthew 26:53
Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?

He does not need our measly carnal weapons or us using them, what He needs is for us to obey His commands:

Matthew 28:18-20
And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. [19] Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: [20] Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

I think it is well past time for us to depend on His Power and Preach the WORD.

In His Love
pastorfrin

1 Cor. 3:16-17
Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? [17] If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.


 2008/5/18 0:29Profile
hmmhmm
Member



Joined: 2006/1/31
Posts: 4991
Sweden

 Re: Nonresistant and Nonpolitical by J. C. Wenger

I have read this passage and the surrounding passages just now and meditated upon them, this is what i think happened in LUK 7:1-10

we see in the first verse

Luk 7:1 Now when he had ended all his sayings in the audience of the people, he entered into Capernaum.

Jesus had just been preaching, it is very possible the centurion had heard Jesus and was "pricked" in his heart and now seeking him for faith an healing.

It is true Jesus dont rebuke him, or say he must stop being a soldier. There are other such scriptures also in the NT. Several ones. I have read the other side to call it that, their argument and scripture. They are there. I have not come to some final and last stand on all things. But there are other scripture moe that you seem to ignore or make not valid if wearing a uniform.



what i think one of the things this passge can teach us is this

Luk 7:7 Wherefore neither thought I myself worthy to come unto thee: but say in a word, and my servant shall be healed.
Luk 7:8 For I also am a man set under authority, having under me soldiers, and I say unto one, Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth it.
Luk 7:9 When Jesus heard these things, he marvelled at him, and turned him about, and said unto the people that followed him, I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.
Luk 7:10 And they that were sent, returning to the house, found the servant whole that had been sick.


he marveled at him, and turned him about, and said unto the people that followed him, I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.


Isent it amazing that a heathen soldier has more faith in Jesus then his own people? it is the same today, many christians dont believe gods word or all of it anyway. Or make it of non effect by their fathers traditions.

So i think even as Jesus dont forbid this man to be a soldier, he dont encourage him either.

He does use him as a rebuke to his people. and an example to us to learn from

And probably the centurion saught Jesus becuse he had just heard his preaching from


Luk 6:26 Woe unto you, when all men shall speak well of you! for so did their fathers to the false prophets.
Luk 6:27 But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you,
Luk 6:28 Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you.
Luk 6:29 And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloke forbid not to take thy coat also.
Luk 6:30 Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again.
Luk 6:31 And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise.
Luk 6:32 For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them.
Luk 6:33 And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same.
Luk 6:34 And if ye lend to them of whom ye hope to receive, what thank have ye? for sinners also lend to sinners, to receive as much again.
Luk 6:35 But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.
Luk 6:36 Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.
Luk 6:37 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:
Luk 6:38 Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.
Luk 6:39 And he spake a parable unto them, Can the blind lead the blind? shall they not both fall into the ditch?
Luk 6:40 The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master.
Luk 6:41 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but perceivest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
Luk 6:42 Either how canst thou say to thy brother, Brother, let me pull out the mote that is in thine eye, when thou thyself beholdest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, cast out first the beam out of thine own eye, and then shalt thou see clearly to pull out the mote that is in thy brother's eye.
Luk 6:43 For a good tree bringeth not forth corrupt fruit; neither doth a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Luk 6:44 For every tree is known by his own fruit. For of thorns men do not gather figs, nor of a bramble bush gather they grapes.
Luk 6:45 A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh.
Luk 6:46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?
Luk 6:47 Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like:
Luk 6:48 He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock.
Luk 6:49 But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great.


and these teachings are very hard to live by in a war, so one must conclude the soldier probably was "pricked" in his heart and seeking the Lord for salvation and healing. Jesus also healed in that previous chapter, and maybe the centurion saw that and had faith....


so great faith he shamed a entire nation of gods people.

I am also interested in hearing your views on the "rabbit trail" of scriptures brother moe.


Gods peace and grace brother


_________________
CHRISTIAN

 2008/5/18 0:36Profile
hmmhmm
Member



Joined: 2006/1/31
Posts: 4991
Sweden

 Re:

i think Dean taylor does a good and are very faithful in interpreting scripture in this sermon.

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=15168&commentView=itemComments]Theology of martyrdom[/url]

For those that are unfamiliar with this view, one shouldent be since they are just same as what Jesus taught, but we have so many that have been taught otherwise , and even if one holds the opposite view, and thinks and are convinced a christian can be in a war and fight. Wont hurt you to listen to the other sides arguments....

They may be very good. And he also gives a good testimony since he once was a soldier in Americas army.... Dean Taylor was one of the speakers at Revival conference, be blessed brothers and sisters in the Lord


_________________
CHRISTIAN

 2008/5/18 0:46Profile









 Re:

Quote:

pastorfrin wrote:
Moe,
The one on the rabbit trail would be the one who justifies going to war, taking the lives of those Christ died for and basing it all on a portion of scripture where it is about faith in Jesus Christ to heal.



Pastorfrin, Hmmmmm and everyone.
I will try explain further what I believe the scriptures say. I will not go into a great deal about that because I have more important things to say.
We know Joshua, Gideon, and many other great men of God faught other evil men that worshipped other God's and the Army that worship the God of Abraham Issiac and Jabob always won the battle as long as they were in good standing with the Father who sent his Son Jesus to die for our sins. Jesus is our example. One main difference in us being the example as Jesus was is we can't be anyone's Savior, we can point them toward the Savior. As His church, we are to be a body, the wife to the bridesgroom. Each body part of that body functions at least it's suppose to in an effort to point people to Jesus, who was only perfect sacrifice for sins. Jesus said he came not to comdemn the world but to save it.

Now we know from scripture that it appears Moses, and the prophets are in heaven. Peter James and John saw Moses and Elijah with Jesus They went to war with God's enemies, the ones who worshipped other God's. They are in heaven in good graces with Jesus and the Father.

Having said that, and the fact Jesus said there will be wars and rumors of wars. Seeing that Jesus did not rebuke the centerion. Having a pretty good idea that Jesus loves us and not only wants to give us eternal life but loves us enough to see our children safe from captivity of evil people and know Jesus loves us and wants to see His children enjoy His creation and wants to see us love each other during our vapor life here on earth and then be with him in heaven.

It don't take a rocket scientist to figure out where the world would be if we had not had WW1 AND WW2. We would be in captivity of the communist. Now all these consencious objectors and I realized you served, but I'm talking about the ones that haven't and the people who don't think we need a military. My advice to them is move to Iran, North Korea or some of those communist nations who served other God's and then they will be ready to come back to America and thank God for His grace and mercy now and for eternity. God has been bountiful to me. I have served 3 years in Vietnam. He bought me through that and he has blessed me with more comfort and love from family than I ever imagine or deserve, especially for the way I have served Him in my younger years. Not only that, but He has given me eternal life and man I don't know how people handle it when they come to the place where they know there life will end and they can't be totally confident of Him and eternity.

There are many thing we don't know about God, but one thing we do know, He loves us so very much. He is a just God and He true to His Word and He will eternally punish all who does not put their trust in Jesus and in paying our sin debt in full on the cross and then rising again to live so we can too.

I have been for the past 3 years on oxygen 24/7 to breath. Housebound about 95% of the time. I struggled for about a year before I got set up on oxygen to breath.It's pretty expensive. I have been at the point of death and meeting Jesus several times over the past 3 years. I have had plenty of times to cry out to Him for mercy and grace. Actually right now, I am quiet comfortable, breathing good with my oxygen on, sitting in my new Lazyboy recliner my wife bought for me not long ago, typing on my new $120.00 Pent 4 Gateway laptop computer laptop, ask me about that price sometime and how I got it that cheap, with the room temperate just right. I could go on and on, God has been so good to me. I am so thankful to Him and for His presence. All that and eternal life. Wow. That is the hope that we have.

Whether I differ with you over war being justified or not is not really that important. Loving Him and being thankful for all He is and all He had done is.

God Bless all of you.
moe_mac





 2008/5/18 1:39
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4502


 Re:

Hi pastorfrin...

Quote:
Moe,
The one on the rabbit trail would be the one who justifies going to war, taking the lives of those Christ died for and basing it all on a portion of scripture where it is about faith in Jesus Christ to heal.


Actually, someone could say the same thing about anyone else's views (including your own). I do not think that it is wise to say such things (about those who we think are off on "rabbit trails") unless there is NO DOUBT about our beliefs.

The point is that we often dismiss the views of others when we THINK that we know which way is "perfect" and that we have arrived to such "perfection" in a particular area of our doctrine. The views of the "non-involvement" crowd (from slight to supposedly complete in nature) is duly noted. However, there are those amongst us that do not embrace such a belief in complete and utter non-involvement. Thus, we need to be careful about acting as if our own set of beliefs in such matters are the only ones that matter or that they are the only ones embraced by Jesus -- if we even have the slightest hesitation about such a matter.

I believe that I can vote. I believe that I can affect or influence the legislators and legislation of this nation. I do this -- not because I think that it is the most "spiritual" thing to do or a specific calling in Christ -- but because it is a means by which I can influence the outcome of the decisions of men and women who wish to influence this nation's direction anyway. There are certain choices that are not directly spelled out in Scripture. The Word of God says nothing about what type of car I should drive (at least, not directly). It doesn't speak directly about computers (becaues they did not exist at the time). Likewise, it speaks very little about a government like the one in the United States ("...[i]of the people, for the people and by the people[/i]...") because such governments did not exist in the first century. Yet I believe in providing for my family as best as I can...and this is spoken of in the Scriptures.

If a pornographic billboard advertising any sort of smut were to be created in my backyard -- in full view of my family -- I would do everything that I could to have it removed. If someone tried to break into my house, and the doors were locked, I would CALL THE AUTHORITIES while praying the entire time. If the state attempted to take my house via "imminent domain" in order to build a new highway -- I would try to do something about it (either seek proper compensation or contact my legislators). If members of my state legislature were to introduce a bill that would allow for "secret abortions" on behalf of 10 and 11 year old girls without parental consent -- I would raise my voice to both the public and those legislators. If my children were to be taken away by a state agency that claimed that I "brainwashed" them with Christianity -- I would fight such thing through the legislature. If I were arrested for preaching the Gospel on a public street -- I would fight it in the nation's legal system (appealing unto Washington if I had to). If the state introduced a new tax that targeted only Christians (as is common in Islamic nations) and used such a law to take all of our property, I would do what I could to voice my concern in and to the government. If the state tried to say that I no longer have the right to educate my own children and that I must admit them into one of these battlegrounds of the mind known as "public schools" (where, I might add, my wife works), I would do what I can to stop such a thing from becoming law. And, of course, at the same time I would PRAY and FAST.

Do you see how some of us think that we can be involved in government or in what some would call "politics?" Yes, there are limits to such involvement. Some of us who feel the liberty to vote might not feel the liberty to serve in the military. Some of us who feel the liberty to serve in the military might not feel the liberty to serve in the infantry. But is it wise to dismiss all such government involvement with blanket statement of complete separation? We are not of this world but we are IN this world. Joseph, Moses, Daniel, Paul -- they all either used the "secular" (or even pagan) governmental structure to advance the cause of our Lord.

We all know the old anecdote about a flood and a man refusing to accept rescue via a lifejacket, a boat and a helicopter because the man was "waiting on God for rescue" (and how he stood before God after dying and God asks him why the man didn't accept the lifejacket, boat or helicopter that he sent). Likewise, a government that is made up of our fellow neighbors can be influenced by our faith. God can even use the legal and legislative process to bring about good (such as opening the door to the Gospel in closed nations, as Brother Richard Wurmbrand used to attest).

We should be careful -- and prayerful -- about the words that we share. Yes, we certainly enjoy the liberty to share what we believe. But we shouldn't pass off our beliefs as if they are the only perspective that matters. I know that Brother Moe is quick to voice his perspective or thoughts on such issues, but it often seems that this is because others are so quick to advance their own as well. I simply suggest that we use patience and grace -- and do not pass off someone else's belief in voting (or other forms of involvement) as a "sinful" thing that will send them to Hell (which is how I have felt that I was treated at times). I know that this is not the message that most of us try to express, but this is how it often appears.

This election season, I will probably vote. I will almost certainly use my voice (my vote) on propositions that I feel are important. However, I might even vote for a candidate who I feels is the better of two choices in the direction of this country. There are issues that matter to me: Abortion, homosexual activism, commercial pornography passed as artistic "free speech," public religious freedom, personal security, etc... -- all of these things matter to me. I know that all things are in the hands of God and that I will be kept there regardless of the events of the future. And I know that the world is headed to a certain doom. However, I will still do what I can to prevent my family and my neighborhood from spiraling down to utter destruction.

In I Samuel chapter 17, God could have easily destroyed the Philistine with lightning or by opening the ground up and devouring Goliath. Yet the Lord chose to use certain instruments (a smooth stone and a sling) in the hands of one of His children to accomplish this. Likewise, I believe that God can use the things of this world to bring about a victory. He can use government legislature to outlaw abortion -- just as Satan often uses a government legislature to protect his interests. This is the extent of my views of government and even the military. It might not be 100% infallible and some might even scoff at such a notion, but this is what I currently feel as a child of God. This thought isn't taken lightly -- but is arrived to after much prayer, study, more prayer, contemplation and more prayer. I am certain that we all do the same.


_________________
Christopher

 2008/5/18 12:59Profile
pastorfrin
Member



Joined: 2006/1/19
Posts: 1406


 Re: Brothers

Quote:

moe_mac wrote:

There are many thing we don't know about God, but one thing we do know, He loves us so very much. He is a just God and He true to His Word and He will eternally punish all who does not put their trust in Jesus and in paying our sin debt in full on the cross and then rising again to live so we can too.

I have been for the past 3 years on oxygen 24/7 to breath. Housebound about 95% of the time. I struggled for about a year before I got set up on oxygen to breath.It's pretty expensive. I have been at the point of death and meeting Jesus several times over the past 3 years. I have had plenty of times to cry out to Him for mercy and grace. Actually right now, I am quiet comfortable, breathing good with my oxygen on, sitting in my new Lazyboy recliner my wife bought for me not long ago, typing on my new $120.00 Pent 4 Gateway laptop computer laptop, ask me about that price sometime and how I got it that cheap, with the room temperate just right. I could go on and on, God has been so good to me. I am so thankful to Him and for His presence. All that and eternal life. Wow. That is the hope that we have.

Whether I differ with you over war being justified or not is not really that important. Loving Him and being thankful for all He is and all He had done is.

God Bless all of you.
moe_mac






Brother Moe,

It is so true, our differences are nothing compared to us loving Him and being thankful for His wondrous mercy and His amazing grace.

We are not that different brother, as you may know; I lost part of my knee joint while in country along with the scares in body, there are the ones in mind and spirit. His grace has been faithful in healing these.

I’m also in a battle, as kidney cancer is taking its toll. I just found out that it has now metastasized to my left hip. So now I have a bad right knee and a bum left hip.

By His grace I still work at the VA and minister in the church, but unless I receive healing soon all this will end and I will soon finish the race.
Moe, we were once brothers in arms, but now we are brothers in Christ. One day we will meet Him face to face and we will be like Him, no differences then only blood bought brothers in and with Jesus Christ.

May God’s blessings rest upon you and yours, until that glorious day.

In His Love
pastorfrin

 2008/5/18 14:49Profile
pastorfrin
Member



Joined: 2006/1/19
Posts: 1406


 Re:

Chris wrote:

Quote:
Actually, someone could say the same thing about anyone else's views (including your own). I do not think that it is wise to say such things (about those who we think are off on "rabbit trails") unless there is NO DOUBT about our beliefs.




Chris,

You may want to read the whole thread before you start with your accusations, if you have then it is evident you belong to one of those “crowds” you are talking about.

I have not been talking to you or about politics. I have been talking to a brother in arms and in Christ and we are well able to work out our differences.

I thank you for your concern, and trust the Lord will lead you in the Truth.

Blessings

In His Love
pastorfrin

 2008/5/18 14:55Profile









 Re:

Quote:

pastorfrin wrote:
Chris wrote:
Quote:
Actually, someone could say the same thing about anyone else's views (including your own). I do not think that it is wise to say such things (about those who we think are off on "rabbit trails") unless there is NO DOUBT about our beliefs.




Chris,

You may want to read the whole thread before you start with your accusations, if you have then it is evident you belong to one of those “crowds” you are talking about.

I have not been talking to you or about politics. I have been talking to a brother in arms and in Christ and we are well able to work out our differences.
I thank you for your concern, and trust the Lord will lead you in the Truth.
Blessings
In His Love
pastorfrin



We should not be worried about ourrr differences Pastorfrin, but being in tune with HIS WORD and standing for His righteousness. Actually Chris wrote the same thing I would have written if I had his education, I guess I could translate his post to the redneck version of it, but you have already heard that. SO I just say Amen
Blessings brother. Don't worry about lining up with me and Chris, just worry about lining up with the Word.

 2008/5/18 15:28
pastorfrin
Member



Joined: 2006/1/19
Posts: 1406


 Re: worried? no

Moe wrote:

Quote:
We should not be worried about ourrr differences Pastorfrin, but being in tune with HIS WORD and standing for His righteousness. Actually Chris wrote the same thing I would have written if I had his education, I guess I could translate his post to the redneck version of it, but you have already heard that. SO I just say Amen




Worried? no, confident in Him yes.

2 Tim. 1:12
For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.


And to this I say AMEN!


 2008/5/18 16:11Profile





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