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hmmhmm
Member



Joined: 2006/1/31
Posts: 4991
Sweden

 Re:

You can speak out clearly brother if you are saying something at me. I am referring to "know anyone?"

I can take a rebuke if i did this evil thing you say i did. Do you think my rabbit trail as you call it has no "meat" in it? is it not according to what the sum of the bible teach?

I am concerned about what you belive, since i belive you are wrong, hence i try and prove you are wrong with scripture, and some short comments on them for you. You dont listen. And you dont have to.

you have been brought up in a country that often times has a flag next to a cross in their church.

I think we have all been one way or the other been brainwashed by our society what to think and believe. i know i have and i do my best by Gods grace to rot out any swedish in me that might go against Gods word.


we need to wash that out with the word of God.

even if it goes against what you where brought up with in believing.


_________________
CHRISTIAN

 2008/5/17 16:47Profile
Tears_of_joy
Member



Joined: 2003/10/30
Posts: 1554


 Re:

Quote:

hmmhmm wrote:
I think we have all been one way or the other been brainwashed by our society what to think and believe. i know i have and i do my best by Gods grace to rot out any swedish in me that might go against Gods word.


we need to wash that out with the word of God.

even if it goes against what you where brought up with in believing.



Amen, brother. Often this process of "washing out" is very painful, but [b][u]IF[/u][/b] we love the truth, more than our pride (personal or national) the Lord will bring us to light, sooner or later. I hope it will not be too much later!

 2008/5/17 16:52Profile
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4502


 Re:

Hello...

I understand why the overseers of this website wish to prohibit the discussion of politics. It isn't because they believe that we are supposed to cut off every tie to the manner in which this world operates. We still pay taxes. Our Administrator, Greg, is forced to operate according to the rules laid before him by the governments in which he ministers. If he wants to travel to the United States or the United Kingdom, he must have a passport. If he desires to obtain "non-profit" status, he can use the laws that have been created and established by politicians who were voted into office.

We need to understand that there is no occupation of a "politician." A politician is simply a word meant to describe someone who works in the administration and management of the government. He is just another guy who decided to serve in such an office for what he thought -- right or wrong -- would be the betterment of his community, state, or nation. An accumulation of votes is what puts such a person into service. A lack of votes puts the other guy into service. Either way -- by participation or non-participation in the casting of a vote -- one person will win each election. If enough "good" people do nothing, then we can rest assured that something bad might result.

Like I have said before, a vote is simply a voice. It isn't declaring "allegiance" to a candidate, a party or even a social agenda. Rather, it is simply stating (by a little "x" on a piece of paper) just who you think would do a better job in governing. Oddly enough, it is just as much a "voice" as those amongst us who loudly oppose any interaction with such things. A person can vote FOR a particular reason (to lower taxes, end a war, etc...) or AGAINST a particular reason (to STOP abortion, to STOP government recognition and protection of homosexual "marriage," etc...). It might not necessarily be for the reason of embracing the totality of a candidate's beliefs.

Someone once said that those who refuse to vote shouldn't have their right to complain later. They could have used their voice (by voting), yet chose not to. I feel the liberty to vote. I would even feel the liberty to enlist in the military. While some believers might believe that this equates to declaring allegiance to a government, nationality or ideas ABOVE our allegiance to God -- this is not always the case. Sometimes, it is honorable to "choose" between candidates according to which we think is best for our families, our neighbors and our temporary country and citizenship.

I think that it is silly for individuals to go about claiming that any sort of involvement in society is prohibited by Scripture. Jesus paid his taxes -- which were used to fund a godless pagan Empire that ruled the world. Paul used the Roman roads. He used his Roman citizenship (yes, he stated that he was a citizen of Rome) in order to get out of a beating and he "appealed unto Caesar" in order to get the Gospel to Rome and the "house of Caesar." This didn't make Paul any less of a believer, nor did it equate to placing Rome ahead of Christ. In fact, Paul used these things to advance the cause of Christ.

When I vote, I always do so with the glory of Christ in mind. I also consider the needs of my family, fellow believers and neighbors. If I don't want to have my home taken by the government to be turned into a highway, I get involved with the government (by voicing my concern). The government is not perfect -- and it is far from a "holy" thing -- but it is the institution ordained by God. My vote simply reflects my choice between possible alternatives as to what I think is best for this temporary country that we are "passing through."

This situation is far from established. Yet we would do well to state that anything we feel in this matter reflects our own opinions and beliefs. It would be helpful to identify this as such. Yet I have noticed that those who are the loudest in opposition to any such involvement are often the loudest in opposition to decisions by individuals in government (such as the war). Ironically, many do not see the similarity between a voice uttered through a vote and a voice uttered through a complaint. They speak as if those who choose to utter a voice to or in the government are already serving Satan. This is a dangerous statement to make without using those powerful little words, "[i]It is my opinion/belief[/i]..."

:-(


_________________
Christopher

 2008/5/17 17:45Profile
pastorfrin
Member



Joined: 2006/1/19
Posts: 1406


 Re: Rabbit trails

Quote:

moe_mac wrote:
Quote:

hmmhmm wrote:

Satan has so many laboring under an old testament understanding of the kingdom.









If you knew your Bible well enough you would that the passage about Jesus and the centerion is in the New Testament and not just be arguing for the sake of argument and hard headedly staying with the theology you were taught while you were growing up.
At the least you would make an effort to stay with the passage mentioned and tell me how Jesus rebuked the soldier explain to me where I was missing it. Instead you get off on a rabbit trail because it is the only way you can even remotely appear as though you have a valid case in your argument.



Luke 7:1-10
Now when he had ended all his sayings in the audience of the people, he entered into Capernaum. [2] And a certain centurion's servant, who was dear unto him, was sick, and ready to die. [3] And when he heard of Jesus, he sent unto him the elders of the Jews, beseeching him that he would come and heal his servant. [4] And when they came to Jesus, they besought him instantly, saying, That he was worthy for whom he should do this: [5] For he loveth our nation, and he hath built us a synagogue. [6] Then Jesus went with them. And when he was now not far from the house, the centurion sent friends to him, saying unto him, Lord, trouble not thyself: for I am not worthy that thou shouldest enter under my roof: [7] Wherefore neither thought I myself worthy to come unto thee: but say in a word, and my servant shall be healed. [8] For I also am a man set under authority, having under me soldiers, and I say unto one, Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth it. [9] When Jesus heard these things, he marvelled at him, and turned him about, and said unto the people that followed him, I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel. [10] And they that were sent, returning to the house, found the servant whole that had been sick.


Moe,
The centurion was a soldier who scripture says heard about Jesus in a time of need. Scripture does not say the centurion was a believer before he sent word to Jesus about his sick servant.

He very well may have laid down his arms and not continued as a soldier after he placed his faith in Jesus. Jesus may have instructed him to do so, scripture does not say.

History does lead us to believe, that if he continued his faith in Christ,
he would not have continued as a soldier as the idolatrous rites enjoined on the Roman soldiers were totally inconsistent with the Christian character.

Jesus did not say he had great faith because he was a soldier, but because he placed his faith in Jesus and Jesus alone for the healing of his servant.
Oh that we would do the same today.

Moe, your insinuations, insults, and accusations
are not becoming of a Christians character, we are to operate in love even when we disagree.
This is not a battle, but a discussion of the scriptures among the body of Christ.
Love ya Mac

In His Love
pastorfrin

 2008/5/17 18:47Profile









 Re:

History does lead us to believe, that if he continued his faith in Christ,
he would not have continued as a soldier as the idolatrous rites enjoined on the Roman soldiers were totally inconsistent with the Christian character.
Jesus did not say he had great faith because he was a soldier, but because he placed his faith in Jesus and Jesus alone for the healing of his servant.
Oh that we would do the same today.

Moe, your insinuations, insults, and accusations
are not becoming of a Christians character, we are to operate in love even when we disagree.
This is not a battle, but a discussion of the scriptures among the body of Christ.





Pastorfrin,
You are correct in your interpretation that Jesus was referring to the soldier's faith in Jesus' ability to heal but you are assuming the rest about the soldier and his occupation being bad in Jesus eyes. It is not world history truth that I speak of but biblical truth. If being a soldier was a bad thing or an evil thing in the eyes of Jesus, wouldn't this have not been excellent opportunity in the scriptures for Jesus to have rebuked the soldier and let us know that?

As for your accusations against me being out of Christian character in my posts. My struggle is not against flesh and blood but principalities and against powers in wicked places. I have nothing against you, Hmmmmm or anyone else on SI. However I do serve King Jesus and I oppose those powers that enter people and deceive them with a lie, especially when they attempt to pass it on and deceive others, even if it innocently done and I believe in this case and many others it is innocently done. If we are to be Christian soldiers were are to be against those prinicipalities, that means to oppose a lie and anything less than the truth. I have not come against any of you with any weapon other than God's Word. I used the sword of the Spirit, the Word of God. You are adding to the sword. You have a false weapon. I am not oppposing your flesh are anyone elses flesh, just opposing a lie and standing on what I know to be truth. If I did oppose your flesh to do you physical harm as a civilian in anger, I would be out of Christian character. If in my goverment's military in a fight against people who serve ither God's like Allah, I could be right in the center of God's will. It is by the grace of God and His Word, that He gave us that I stand for truth. Somehow the devil has convinced many people and even Christains that we can compromise truth and agree with wrong theology in God's Word, even when they in assume things and insert them His Word that are not there and stand for truth in the same instance and then many have the audacity to call it LOVE. We are to love each other but to love Jesus more. If we love Jesus more, we will stand on truth as we know it and we better make sure we are striving to be accurate. We are to stand on truth even if it offends others and others accuse of us being out of Christian character. That is a lie strait out of hell brother if anyone tells you different. I have no problem with anyone, but I won't stand by and allow people to give every source in the world for truth and quote it as to be truth, refer me to human with a sermon or another book that doesn't line up with the Bible, when I know that they have the Word of God to allow them to be correct. I pray for the boldness and the grace to prevent my brothers and sisters from being deceived in any manner. I don't know it all brother, as a matter of fact I know very little, and if it's neccesary for me to correct you, then you know where that puts you at. Now if I ever get banned on SI for giving truth in boldness, oh well, that's God's will. My prayer is, He will always give me to unction to stand for truth and whereever he allows me to do it. It is as simple as that brother. I have set back and listen to the lie and the spill that Christian duty is not to oppose evil, way to much. I have been and I pray I will continue to be blunt but civil when opposing the lies, just as I have been. In the passage we were discussing, you can't dispute the truth I gave, so assume what fits your spill. But I will oppose a lie wherever location He puts me in, in His strength. I really don't expect me or anyone else will be received in any better manner than the Apostles and Jesus was, as we echo their words. Jesus said it would be that way.
Love ya Brother, just oppose your theology
And oh yes that we would do the same as the centerion today.

 2008/5/17 20:34









 Re: NO KING BUT JESUS

I will not return evil for evil as per Jesus' command.

I will defend my family or another(i.e. senior citizen)from any evildoer if I'm present and able.

I will not enlist nor become a member in any government's military as this is not the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning me.

I am His and I do warfare under no other banner...as His banner over me is love.

Others who are called by the Name of Christ may hold to this or that doctrine regarding this issue but it is enough for me to read the following official document and stand fast upon Jesus' Word:

C. PARTIAL STATEMENT OF EXISTING UNITED STATES LAWS DD FORM 4/1 (BACK), JAN 2001
9. FOR ALL ENLISTEES OR REENLISTEES: Many laws,
regulations, and military customs will govern my
conduct and require me to do things a civilian does not have to do. The following statements are not promises or guarantees of any kind. They explain some of the present laws affecting the Armed Forces which I cannot change but which Congress can change at any time.
a. My enlistment is more than an employment
agreement. As a member of the Armed Forces of the
United States, I will be:
(1) Required to obey all lawful orders and perform all assigned duties.
...(4) Required upon order to serve in combat or other hazardous situations.
enlistment/reenlistment document.
c. In the event of war, my enlistment in the Armed Forces continues until six (6) months after the war ends,unless my enlistment is ended sooner by the President of the United States.

E. CONFIRMATION OF ENLISTMENT OR REENLISTMENT
15. IN THE ARMED FORCES EXCEPT THE NATIONAL GUARD
(ARMY OR AIR):
I, , do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of
Military Justice.
So help me God.
16. IN THE NATIONAL GUARD (ARMY OR AIR):
I, , do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States and the State of against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the Governor of and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to law and regulations. So help me God.
19. ENLISTMENT/REENLISTMENT OFFICER CERTIFICATION
a. The above oath was administered, subscribed, and duly sworn to (or affirmed) before me this date. ____________________________________ .

The above form may be found in its entirety at
www.uscg.mil/hq/psc/da/dd4.doc

This is an authentic government document one is
required to swear to and sign if contracting with any branch of the military for the U.S Government.

One must take an oath of allegiance to the state and its officers.

The christian is not as those who cried,"We have no King but Caesar",who had Christ the King crucified. Rather,the christian has no King but
Jesus. Consider just these few of the many words in Scripture which address this vital issue of swearing and oath-taking:

Leviticus 19:12: "And you shall not swear by My name falsely, neither shall you profane the name of your God: I am the Lord."


Matthew 5:33-37:
Again you have heard that it was said to those of old,"You shall not swear falsely, but shall perform your oaths to the Lord." But I say to you, do not swear at all: neither by heaven, for it is God's throne; nor by the earth, for it is His footstool; nor by Jerusalem,for it is the city of the great King. Nor shall you swear by your head, because you cannot make one hair
white or black. But let your "Yes" be "Yes," and your "No," "No." For whatever is more than these is from the evil one.

James 5:12: "But above all, my brethren, do not swear,either by heaven or by earth or with any other oath.But let your "Yes" be "Yes," and your "No," "No," lest you fall into judgment."

Ecclesiastes 5:2 "Do not be rash with your mouth, and let not your heart utter anything hastily before God. For God is in heaven, and you on earth; therefore let your words be few."


Matt. 12:36 "But I say to you that for every idle word men may speak, they will give account
of it in the day of judgment. For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned."

The above ought to be enough to at the least cause one to re-think what the will of God is
regarding military service.

 2008/5/17 21:40









 Re:

Quote:

wisevirgin wrote:
I will not return evil for evil as per Jesus' command.

I will defend my family or another(i.e. senior citizen)from any evildoer if I'm present and able.

I will not enlist nor become a member in any government's military as this is not the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning me.

I am His and I do warfare under no other banner...as His banner over me is love.

Others who are called by the Name of Christ may hold to this or that doctrine regarding this issue but it is enough for me to read the following official document and stand fast upon Jesus' Word:

C. PARTIAL STATEMENT OF EXISTING UNITED STATES LAWS DD FORM 4/1 (BACK), JAN 2001
9. FOR ALL ENLISTEES OR REENLISTEES: Many laws,
regulations, and military customs will govern my
conduct and require me to do things a civilian does not have to do. The following statements are not promises or guarantees of any kind. They explain some of the present laws affecting the Armed Forces which I cannot change but which Congress can change at any time.
a. My enlistment is more than an employment
agreement. As a member of the Armed Forces of the
United States, I will be:
(1) Required to obey all lawful orders and perform all assigned duties.
...(4) Required upon order to serve in combat or other hazardous situations.
enlistment/reenlistment document.
c. In the event of war, my enlistment in the Armed Forces continues until six (6) months after the war ends,unless my enlistment is ended sooner by the President of the United States.

E. CONFIRMATION OF ENLISTMENT OR REENLISTMENT
15. IN THE ARMED FORCES EXCEPT THE NATIONAL GUARD
(ARMY OR AIR):
I, , do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of
Military Justice.
So help me God.
16. IN THE NATIONAL GUARD (ARMY OR AIR):
I, , do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States and the State of against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the Governor of and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to law and regulations. So help me God.
19. ENLISTMENT/REENLISTMENT OFFICER CERTIFICATION
a. The above oath was administered, subscribed, and duly sworn to (or affirmed) before me this date. ____________________________________ .

The above form may be found in its entirety at
www.uscg.mil/hq/psc/da/dd4.doc

This is an authentic government document one is
required to swear to and sign if contracting with any branch of the military for the U.S Government.

One must take an oath of allegiance to the state and its officers.

The christian is not as those who cried,"We have no King but Caesar",who had Christ the King crucified. Rather,the christian has no King but
Jesus. Consider just these few of the many words in Scripture which address this vital issue of swearing and oath-taking:

Leviticus 19:12: "And you shall not swear by My name falsely, neither shall you profane the name of your God: I am the Lord."


Matthew 5:33-37:
Again you have heard that it was said to those of old,"You shall not swear falsely, but shall perform your oaths to the Lord." But I say to you, do not swear at all: neither by heaven, for it is God's throne; nor by the earth, for it is His footstool; nor by Jerusalem,for it is the city of the great King. Nor shall you swear by your head, because you cannot make one hair
white or black. But let your "Yes" be "Yes," and your "No," "No." For whatever is more than these is from the evil one.

James 5:12: "But above all, my brethren, do not swear,either by heaven or by earth or with any other oath.But let your "Yes" be "Yes," and your "No," "No," lest you fall into judgment."

Ecclesiastes 5:2 "Do not be rash with your mouth, and let not your heart utter anything hastily before God. For God is in heaven, and you on earth; therefore let your words be few."


Matt. 12:36 "But I say to you that for every idle word men may speak, they will give account
of it in the day of judgment. For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned."

The above ought to be enough to at the least cause one to re-think what the will of God is
regarding military service.




Oddly enough a person can skip around in God's Word and copy and paste scriptures to falsely form and fit their theology, as you just did. In replying to my post, just as the others before you, you no attempt to explain why Jesus did not rebuked the soldier about his occupation. Same ole stategy, to get off on a rabbit trail from the subject at hand and the scripture at hand.


 2008/5/17 22:27
Miccah
Member



Joined: 2007/9/13
Posts: 1752
Wisconsin

 Re:

moe_mac wrote:

Quote:


Oddly enough a person can skip around in God's Word and copy and paste scriptures to falsely form and fit their theology, as you just did. In replying to my post, just as the others before you, you no attempt to explain why Jesus did not rebuked the soldier about his occupation. Same ole stategy, to get off on a rabbit trail from the subject at hand and the scripture at hand.




Brother Moe... What is the issue here?

Regardles if you are right or wrong, your arguement/debate on this subject is taking second fidle to your tone.

I love you man, but check yourself in prayer over this. Not one of these folks are above rebuke, but these are some pretty solid brothers and sisters that your harping on. Is this truly advancing the Kindgom?

:-)


_________________
Christiaan

 2008/5/17 23:42Profile









 Re:

hmmhmm wrote:
Quote:


pastorfrin wrote:
Matthew 5:38-48
Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: [39] But I say unto you,


But I say unto you....there we have the change from the old to the new....


The "Ye have heard that it hath been said..." followed by "But I say unto you..." verses found in Matthew are not the change from the old to the new.


In these Jesus is correcting the misinterpreting of God's law by the Pharisees in their Halakha.

Jesus gives the true meaning of His Father's Word as He is the Word incarnate. He is the very Word which spoke on Mount Sinai as well as the Word which spoke to every and through every prophet.

The Father and Son are not of two minds but One.

Also, 1 Cor. 7:20-24 says, "Each one in the calling in which he was called, in this remain.
Were you called as a slave? It does not matter to you. But if you are able to be free, rather use it. For the one called while a slave in the Lord is a freed man of the Lord. And likewise, the one called while a free man is a slave of Christ.

You were redeemed with a price; do not become slaves of men. Each in whatever state called, brothers, in this remain with God.

Christ does not sanction slavery but the one called being a slave is to remain in this state.


Yet we are exhorted not to become slaves of men.

As believers who are free from any enslavement to men, it is incumbent upon us,in honor to our One LORD(Master), not to place ourselves under the power of any.

Re: the centurion... Jesus' encounter with him at this time was not to discuss his occupation, even as it was not the time to discuss abandoning the religious sect of the Pharisees with Nicodemus when he came to Him one night.

"If your religion doesn't change you then change your religion"

 2008/5/17 23:48









 Re:

Quote:

Miccah wrote:
Brother Moe... What is the issue here?

Regardles if you are right or wrong, your arguement/debate on this subject is taking second fidle to your tone.

I love you man, but check yourself in prayer over this. Not one of these folks are above rebuke, but these are some pretty solid brothers and sisters that your harping on. Is this truly advancing the Kindgom?

:-)


I'm not harping on anyone Miccah. I am curious as to how you can hearing a tone in a post. Are you sure it is not your hearing? I have only ask a fair question here about Jesus not rebuking the soldier and no one has answered it, you included.

Now I realize most people really wishes Jesus had rebuked the soldier and then it would let them have the theology they want. They could just back and pray and not have to do anything else toward righteousness and fighting evil.


Was the centerion passage not an idea opportunity for Jesus to rebuke the soldier and instead of commending him. Yes, I know Jesus was mainly commending him about his faith in HIM but if it was as you say, Jesus missed an opportunity I don't think He would have missed.

Of course you know what we do when we assume he quit that his job and add to His Word. I do check myself in prayer often Miccah.

I'm not angry with anyone, but the devil and his lies to people. By the way you haven't answered the question either and evidently you disagree or you wouldn't be urging me compromise against the truth.

I'm not getting off on no rabbit scriptural trail about an issue. You can go back over, thread after thread, you will see it is a cycle. Someone will give a scripture and make a valid point contained in God's Word. Then as it conflicts with someone elses denominational theology, then they completely ignore the scripture and the question when they make their reply post and go off on a detour rabbit trail or either abandon the thread altogether as they did on the post trib theory thread. The worse thing to do is if you can't explain the point wrong, the last thing you need to is bypass God's Word and refer them to a audio sermon. That guy's sermon might be right and might not. That's deception I think. If you got a theology that want answer questions and you are forced to chase rabbits, go figure.
Love you to brother.

 2008/5/18 0:09





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