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hmmhmm
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 Nonresistant and Nonpolitical by J. C. Wenger

Nonresistant and Nonpolitical



Part of the vision which captured the hearts and minds of the original Anabaptists of Zurich, Switzerland, some four centuries ago was the separation of church and state.

This meant among other things that the founders of our brotherhood held that the church ought to be wholly detached from the state. The Gospel should be preached "freely," not under the control or even protection of the state, for the state ought not to take a position of favoring one faith and sup pressing or persecuting the adherents of other views. Church and state were to be utterly separate in personnel, means of entrance, function, means, and end. The church was to be made up of the converted and committed disciples of the Lord Jesus, while the state served all men by maintaining law and order. The state is entered by the natural birth, but the church by the new birth. The state employs law and the threat of force, while the church relies on the power of the Word of God and the Spirit of God.

It is the function of the church to proclaim the Word of God, to win the lost to Christ, and to nurture those who turn to Him. It is the function of the state to restrain evildoers and to assume some responsibility for what might be called the "natural life" of its citizens. The only sanction of the church beyond brotherly rebuke is the excommunication of the impenitent, while the state has weapons to curb the criminal, and may deprive him of his liberty. The head of the state is a mere man, while the Head of the church is none other than Jesus Christ. One corollary of this doctrine of separation of church and state is that the state as state has no voice in the control and direction of the church. The church must heed its own Head, Christ, and obey His Word, the sacred Scriptures.

The other corollary is a twofold one: (1) the church can not ask the state to turn aside from its role of promoting public order by demanding that it follow the ethic of the church; and (2) the church is nevertheless responsible to uphold before all men the will of God that men should live by love, and that justice should be administered in all human relationships. This first half of the second corollary means that for nonresistant Christians, any office in the state which involves the use of violence and the possibility of taking human life (constabulary, military, and magistracy-for the death penalty is sometimes imposed by judges) is not a possible option. Mennonites, have therefore historically felt unable to serve in those three areas, as police officers, as soldiers, and as judges who must administer the laws of the land, and who must even send criminals to the gallows.

The second half of the second corollary is the difficult one to apply in a modern democracy. Surely the church needs more than ever to give its witness against every form of injustice, whether it be against the maltreatment of the poor by the rich or the maltreatment of minorities by the majority. It is in proper order for individual Christians, for congregations, and for conferences to speak out in favor of justice and against all unrighteousness. This obligation is clear, and increasingly in recent decades our brotherhood has sought to be faithful in this area, especially through the General Conference.

Something else needs to be said at present, however, and it needs to be said clearly and emphatically. The central function of the church of Christ is not merely to try to abolish all forms of evil and injustice. The most basic function of the church is to proclaim the everlasting Gospel to the salvation of men and their gathering into the blessed fold of the redeemed. Our supreme guide here is the teaching and example of our Lord and His apostles. First-century Christianity was dynamic; it began an amazing transformation of human society-a transformation which turned the world right side up: but it did so not by political methods but by the faithful proclamation of the Word of God.

Many citizens cannot do any more than employ political methods, but the people of God can. They can use the radio and the pulpit; they can establish Sunday schools and mission stations; they can and must fulfill the function which only the church can fulfill. That function is to make Christ known. And as men come to know Christ, they will in turn be trans formed.

Society surely needs to be regenerated. But the regeneration it most needs can never be achieved by passing laws and taking political action. The only regeneration which will ever truly change men is individual regeneration. Christ's primary message today is therefore, LET THE CHURCH BE THE CHURCH!-

-J. C. Wenger.

From the GOSPEL HERALD, MARCH 15, 1966


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 2008/5/17 9:27Profile









 Re: Nonresistant and Nonpolitical by JESUS

Luke 7:6-10
He was not far from the house when the[b] centurion[/b] sent friends to say to him: "Lord, don't trouble yourself, for I do not deserve to have you come under my roof. 7 That is why I did not even consider myself worthy to come to you. But say the word, and my servant will be healed. 8[b] For I myself am a man under authority, with soldiers under me. I tell this one, 'Go,' and he goes; and that one, 'Come,' and he comes. I say to my servant, 'Do this,' and he does it."[/b]

9[b] When Jesus heard this, he was amazed at him, and turning to the crowd following him, he said, "I tell you, I have not found such great faith even in Israel." [/b]


 2008/5/17 10:05
pastorfrin
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Joined: 2006/1/19
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 Re: Nonresistant and Nonpolitical by JESUS

Nonresistant and Nonpolitical by JESUS

Matthew 5:1-16
And seeing the multitudes, he went up into a mountain: and when he was set, his disciples came unto him: [2] And he opened his mouth, and taught them, saying, [3] Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. [4] Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted. [5] Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth. [6] Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled. [7] Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy. [8] Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God. [9] Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God. [10] Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. [11] Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. [12] Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.
[13] Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men. [14] Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid. [15] Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house. [16] Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

Matthew 5:38-48
Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: [39] But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. [40] And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also. [41] And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain. [42] Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.
[43] Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. [44] But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; [45] That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. [46] For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? [47] And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so? [48] Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Matthew 6:9-15
After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. [10] Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. [11] Give us this day our daily bread. [12] And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors. [13] And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen. [14] For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: [15] But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Matthew 26:52
Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.

John 18:36
Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

Luke 23:34
Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.

Matthew 28:18-20
And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. [19] Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: [20] Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.


We are simply to do and teach what he has said and taught by HIS example.

 2008/5/17 13:49Profile
hmmhmm
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Joined: 2006/1/31
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 Re:

Quote:

pastorfrin wrote:
Matthew 5:38-48
Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: [39] But I say unto you,




But I say unto you....there we have the change from the old to the new....


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CHRISTIAN

 2008/5/17 14:35Profile









 Re:

Quote:

hmmhmm wrote:
Quote:

pastorfrin wrote:
Matthew 5:38-48
Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: [39] But I say unto you,




But I say unto you....there we have the change from the old to the new....





I know you are intelligent enough and biblically knowledgeable enough to know both of the scriptures given(mine and yours) were spoken by Jesus.
Jesus' never cancels anything out from one scripture to another scripture. It is all in perfect harmony.
Both you and are Jesus were referring to we should not as an individual should not repay evil for evil as in taking ones life in anger.
Myself and Jesus is referring to a military man's faith in the Son of God and obeying the authority God has placed over him to serve and protect against in an evil world and having faith in the Son of God Jesus while he was serving in that capacity. Brother I wished you theory would work now. I would be all for it and be preaching with you if a military was not necessary and I beleived that was what Jesus said, but we know this side of heaven that is not a reality and if it were Jesus would have spoke about it other than the things He told us we He spoke He spoke to the centerion and through the Holy Spirit brought into remembrance those things for the Apostles to write for our guidance now.

 2008/5/17 15:04
hmmhmm
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Joined: 2006/1/31
Posts: 4991
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 Re:

Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:


I would like to know from scripture how you kill someone of your enemies as a soldier in an army and while you're doing it love them at the same time.


the whole thing falls if you dont accept the theology of martyrdom. I know the objections "what if someone attacks our nation" or if someone comes into my home, or if this or that happend.

What then?

By Gods grace we die.

I know all dont have that light but thats what i believe is right.

Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were [b]strangers and pilgrims on the earth.[/b]

If we are translated from this world to Jesus kingdom we dont belong in this world,

Mat 4:8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;
Mat 4:9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.
Mat 4:10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.


So many Christian serve their nation and not God, they swear an abomination oath to their government and promise faithfulness.

Or by voting trying to build a "better" kingdom here upon earth, instead of

Heb 11:16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.


Do we desire a better country? or we are simple happy to start building it here instead.

its interesting Jesus once had the opportunity to be king on earth. He refused it.

Satan offered him the kingdoms, he refused it.

but so many are building nations and kingdoms here on earth. Getting involved.


2Co 5:20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

I am an ambassador here on earth on behalf on another kingdom, i dont get tangled up in its affairs, I dont wear their uniform, if your American ambassador in Sweden should start wearing Swedish uniform, buy a house, and start voting in Sweden, you would label him a traitor.

I know many quote Romans,

Rom 13:1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
Rom 13:2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
Rom 13:3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
Rom 13:4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

But Paul dident write this to a Christian, or talking about a Christian. He probably meant Nero, a christian murderer and persecutor.

But even these are Gods servant the ungodly leaders and nations serve God, even Usama bin laden was Gods servant even as Nebuchadrezzar was.

Jer 25:9 Behold, I will send and take all the families of the north, saith the LORD, and Nebuchadrezzar the king of Babylon, my servant, and will bring them against this land, and against the inhabitants thereof, and against all these nations round about, and will utterly destroy them, and make them an astonishment, and an hissing, and perpetual desolations. . The Word of God shows God uses these men for his will as he will.

God will do justice with these wicked rulers, not we. We dont need fight becuse God will

Jer 25:12 And it shall come to pass, when seventy years are accomplished, that I will punish the king of Babylon, and that nation, saith the LORD, for their iniquity, and the land of the Chaldeans, and will make it perpetual desolations.



some reformers did as they where burning and drowning people. Some made crusades and slaughtered people with bible verses.

Not much has changed today, we still have christian "nations" making wars (crusades)

Joh 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

We still fight, our method has changed.

Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

we dont fight those with guns and bombs. This war are we called to


Satan has so many laboring under an old testament understanding of the kingdom.







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 2008/5/17 15:57Profile









 Re:

Quote:

hmmhmm wrote:

Satan has so many laboring under an old testament understanding of the kingdom.









If you knew your Bible well enough you would that the passage about Jesus and the centerion is in the New Testament and not just be arguing for the sake of argument and hard headedly staying with the theology you were taught while you were growing up.
At the least you would make an effort to stay with the passage mentioned and tell me how Jesus rebuked the soldier explain to me where I was missing it. Instead you get off on a rabbit trail because it is the only way you can even remotely appear as though you have a valid case in your argument.

 2008/5/17 16:03
hmmhmm
Member



Joined: 2006/1/31
Posts: 4991
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 Re:

Quote:

moe_mac wrote:
Quote:

hmmhmm wrote:

Satan has so many laboring under an old testament understanding of the kingdom.









If you knew your Bible well enough you would that the passage about Jesus and the centerion is in the New Testament and not just be arguing for the sake of argument on staying with the theology you were taught while you were growing up.



You are assuming much brother.

I dident grow up Christian, i dident hear the name Jesus ever mentioned to me my first 20 years of my life.

By Gods grace i have known the Lord almost three years, he has been good tyo me reveling much to me through his holy word and his people.

These things has come to be my conviction from reading the bible and looking at church history and reading other Godly mens writings and teachings.


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 2008/5/17 16:11Profile
hmmhmm
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Joined: 2006/1/31
Posts: 4991
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 Re:

Quote:

moe_mac wrote:
At the least you would make an effort to stay with the passage mentioned and tell me how Jesus rebuked the soldier explain to me where I was missing it. Instead you get off on a rabbit trail because it is the only way you can even remotely appear as though you have a valid case in your argument.




I am sorry, i will do my best to stay with your verses, i will post later brother


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 2008/5/17 16:15Profile









 Re:

Quote:

hmmhmm wrote:
Quote:


edited: corrected some spelling and grammer errors, some errors I'm sure remain, but you get the general drift.
moe_mac wrote:
At the least if you would make an effort to stay with the passage in question and just tell exactly how you arrive at Jesus rebuked the soldier. Please explain to me how I was missing it. Maybe cause it is not there. Instead of using the sword, you get off on a rabbit trail because it is the only way you can even remotely appear as though you have a valid case in your argument.




I am sorry, i will do my best to stay with your verses, i will post later brother




I got to hand to you, you persistent in attempting to prove your theology. That rabbit trail methods and there is one other method often used (not you but others)and that is, to use so many adjectives and big words that the normal everyday reader don't have a clue what you wrote or said. Many people write in such a manner, repetitiously using multiple adjectives and always big words that are rarely used in the norm. Their posts are so eloquent, example of what I'm saying, if they are writing about rain and giving a description of the a rain storm, when you finished reading the post, you would not know whether they were saying it was raining or not raining. I am referring to all that gooble gobble they write that and not giving God's Word with it. God's Word warns of us all of such methods of deception. Paul said I did come to you with excellent speech and goes to warn of those that do. Know anyone that does that?

 2008/5/17 16:35





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