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Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
wisevirgin wrote:
The answer to the corporate is the same as the personal:

They can not be.

This is corporate:
[b]Rom 9:11[/b] [color=990000] For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calls;)[/color]

[b]Rom 9:13[/b] [color=990000]As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.[/color]
[b]Mal 1:1-2[/b] [color=990000]The burden of the Word of Jehovah to Israel by the hand of Malachi:
[b]:2[/b] I have loved you, says Jehovah. But you say, In what way have You loved us? Was not Esau the brother to Jacob? Yet Jehovah declares, I loved Jacob,[/color]
[b]Gen 25:23[/b] [color=990000]And Jehovah said to her, Two nations are in your womb; even two peoples shall break from your body. And one people shall be stronger than the other people; and the elder shall serve the younger.[/color]

Jabobe (Israel) never had to repent, nor had to have faith in order for this Election.

Personal Election, one must have faith and repent.

[b]You still have not answered what criteria does God use in choosing the Elect?[/b]

 2008/5/13 9:19Profile
whyme
Member



Joined: 2007/4/3
Posts: 293


 Re:

Logic, your question presumes that there must be a criteria. It secondly presumes that, even if there is a criteria, God must reveal it. Why so to each question?

 2008/5/13 13:02Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
whyme wrote:
Logic, your question presumes that there must be a criteria.

there must be a criteria, because with out criteria, God is electing arbitrarily, determined by or arising from [b]whim[/b] rather than judgment or reason.

There is a saying by GEORGE WASHINGTON:
Arbitrary power is most easily established on the ruins of liberty abused to licentiousness.

Quote:
It secondly presumes that, even if there is a criteria, God must reveal it.

It is not that HE must reveal it, but that all desisions are based on certain criteria that is evident to all. God bases everything HE does upon truth and righteousness. Since that is true, it must be evident to all.

Why has nobody answered the question yet since they know God so well?

Quote:
Why so to each question?

If you mean [b]each[/b] question as to why does HE elect [b]&[/b] why does HE not elect;

My qustion are because I gave the answers, but y'all deny them as being untrue.
If I am wrong, please tell me the truth.

Furthermore, If God has not revaeled His criteria for electing & not electing, if it is unknowable, then you have no authority to say that I am wrong because you don't know if I am wrong or not by the fact that it is not known.

Therefore, since you have strong objection to my statement of God's criteria, then you must know what the true criteria is.

Please tell me since I am wrong.

 2008/5/13 13:58Profile









 Re:

Y'all are making my head hurt!

Krispy

 2008/5/13 14:52
roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

Quote:
It is not that HE must reveal it, but that all desisions are based on certain criteria that is evident to all. God bases everything HE does upon truth and righteousness. Since that is true, it must be evident to all.

Why has nobody answered the question yet since they know God so well?



God elects according to His foreknowledge of individuals, and His absolute right to have mercy on whom He will.

If a man is save, it has everything to do with God, but if a man is lost, it is his own fault for not believing the Gospel and for sinning against God's Law.

Of course a man cannot believe the Gospel without a new heart which only God can give, faith is a gift.

How can these things both be true yet seem so contradictory? The same way that God can hate sin, yet use it for His purposes in this world.

You will never be able to figure out all the "whys", as you are not God. Yet it seems you try to peer into Heaven to get God to answer you as to why He does things the way He does, I think Paul had some words for folks that do similar things and had similar questions-
Romans 9:20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?"
Romans 9:21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?

Enjoy your salvation, exalt Christ, and leave the hidden things of God alone. Take what He has clearly revealed in Scripture and revel in it.

We will never understand God's ways here, He is too large for that, don't try to reduce Him down to something you can wrap your mind and "logic" around.

And as far as no one answering your questions, I think I have many times over, you just didn't like the answers :-D

God's grace to you brother logic, and may Christ be exalted above your pursuit of knowledge.


_________________
patrick heaviside

 2008/5/13 15:15Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3706
Ca.

 Re:

Our parents did not consult with us when they conceived us and ask us if we wanted to be born.

That was in the Hands of God, as to the life of the seed bringing forth another human being by mother and father, the seed planted to give life to us.

The same is with God, when we believe, and it is His giving the Grace that we can believe, then conception is accomplished again, that is the Incorruptable Seed of the Father birthed in those that God has given the ability to believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. God like mother and father does not consult with us if we want to be born again.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

The gift of God is the Grace and Faith that God provides for us to be born again, because we believe. I believe I was born into this world because I exist. I believe that I was born again into God's world because I have the witness in myself and I again exist, I live, "yet not I but Christ lives in me."

Galatians 2:20-21 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

God chose me before the foundation of the world to be in Christ Jesus, that I might be crucified with Him and die to sin and live unto God, because of His foreknowledge of what Adam would do. This is the foreknowledge that God has, He has already chosen those in Christ and those that would believe. Not that I would choose Christ, for none would unless God intervened in the process, and give the Grace through Faith, being crucified with Christ so I might be saved from sin and death.

Genesis 3:2-7 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil. And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat. And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.

As always man is still trying to be his own God.
This can never be, there is only One God and Son Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit that brings the Seal of Salvation by the Christ that is born again in us, by the Perfect Seed of the Father who has birthed us again in Christ, and did not have to ask our permission if we want to be born again, just like my father and mother did not consult with me and ask if I would like to become a person. God has made us Christ Persons, by His own will, not mine.

Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Eph 1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

The Mystery: Colossians 1:26-28 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

Phl 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of [his] good pleasure.

2Th 1:11 Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of [this] calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of [his] goodness, and the work of faith with power:

In Christ: Phillip


_________________
Phillip

 2008/5/13 15:18Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quit dodging the question, You still have not answered what criteria does God use in choosing the Elect?

Quote:
roaringlamb wrote:
And as far as no one answering your questions, I think I have many times over, you just didn't like the answers

No, you, nor any one else have not, y'all give ambigious answerd as the reson being for God's glory and the like...ect... However, that is not a criteria.

I am looking for a standard of judgment or criticism that God uses to elect and not to elect.

No one has given an answer.

 2008/5/13 16:05Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3706
Ca.

 Re:

Quote: Logic wrote:

Quit dodging the question, You still have not answered what criteria does God use in choosing the Elect?



Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

roaringlamb wrote:
""And as far as no one answering your questions, I think I have many times over, you just didn't like the answers
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
No, they have not, they give ambigious answerd as the reson is God's glory. However, that is not a criteria.

I am looking for a standard of judgment or criticism that God uses to elect and not to elect.
No one has given an answer.""





No one can because it is His own and He has already given what is necessary to be the Elect.
Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved.

Ephesians 2:1-10 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

This is His criteria:

He is the reason we keep His commandments.

1 John 5:1-13 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him. By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God? This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth. For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one. If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son. He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

In Christ: Phillip


_________________
Phillip

 2008/5/13 16:17Profile
PreachParsly
Member



Joined: 2005/1/14
Posts: 2164
Arkansas

 Re:

Quote:
The reason for electing certain men and not others must be based upon the foreknowledge that they will submit to the truth and ask for the mercy that is offered. In other words, God must have known whom he could save.



I'm not sure but some may be missing what logic is saying.

God either has a reason for some being a part of the elect or He doesn't. If God does have a reason, what is it? If He doesn't... well then your mind just goes numb. The question would then be what do we say about God's love if God has no reason to elect some, but just does it anyways?

Logic said that the election is based purely upon foreknowledge. Those that disagree with him haven't given a reason God elects- because they don't believe you can know- yet they insist that Logic is wrong. Here is an example: Boy 1 says, this is a circle. Boy 2 says, "No! It's not!" Boy 1 says, "well, then what is it?" Boy2 says, "I don't know but I don't agree with you."

That's the summary that I get from what Logic is saying (whether I disagree or not). Maybe that will help some?


_________________
Josh Parsley

 2008/5/13 16:44Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

PreachParsly, I thank you!!! :-)

You get 5 star for the day. *****

 2008/5/13 16:56Profile





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