Quote:This is not the All loving, infinite in grace Lord who does have any pleasure at all that the wicked should die, but that he should turn from his ways, and live(Ezekiel 18:23,32&33:11, Lam 3:33,)
The Lord has created those who, as he certainly foreknew, were to go to destruction, and he did so because he so willed.
You describe a devil.
God would not create sentient beings for the sole purpose of being tormented eternaly.
Why he willed it is not ours to ask
Quote:If God does not make some persons on purpose to damn them, why does HE not elect them?
The punishment of the non-elect was not the ultimate end of their creation, but the glory of God. It is frequently objected that predestination implies, "God makes some persons on purpose to damn them," but this we never advanced; nay, we utterly reject it as equally unworthy of God to do and of a rational being to suppose.
Quote:Actualy, the non-elect are non-elect because of judgment. That is the only reason for damnation.
the creation of the non-elect is for the display of His justice, power, sovereignty, holiness and truth.
Judgment only comes from willful,intentional rebelion & disobedience.
One can not be judged guilty for being created as a non-elect.
Quote:Prov.16:4 The Lord has worked all for Himself, And also the wicked [works] for a day of evil. (Youngs)
So that nothing can be more certain than the declaration of the text, "The Lord hath made all things for Himself, even the wicked for the day of evil" (Prov.16:4).
The LORD has done all for an answer, even the wicked does all for the day of evil.
Quote:God does not create vessles of wrath from the behining, they end up as vessles of wrath because of judgment.
On one hand, the vessels of wrath are fitted for destruction, in order that God may "show His wrath and make His power known," and manifest the greatness of His patience and longsuffering (Rom. 9:32).
Quote:God would need a justifiable reason to do so.
. It may seem absurd to human wisdom that God should harden, blind and deliver up some men to a reprobate sense - that He should first deliver them over to evil, and then condemn them for that evil - but the believing spiritual man sees no absurdity at all in this, knowing that God would be never a whit less good, even though He should destroy all men.
Quote:That is backward, it is not "the will of God is the only rule of justice", but, rule of justice is the only will of God.
Whatever things God wills or does are not willed and done by Him because they were in their own nature and previously to His willing them, just and right, or because, from their intrinsic fitness, He ought to will and do them; but they are therefore just, right and proper because He, who is holiness itself, wills and does them. Hence, Abraham looked upon it as a righteous action to slay his innocent son. Why did he so esteem it, because the law of God authorised murder? No; for, on the contrary, both the law of God and the law of nature peremptorily forbade it; but the holy patriarch well knew that the will of God is the only rule of justic
Furthermore, the law was "just and right" and they had intrinsic fitness previously to His willing them.
The law stems from Gods very own nature. There was good and evil before the law pointed it out.
Furthermore, Having Abraham to slay his innocent son would not have been murder, because he knew that Hod would raise his son from the dead(Hebrews 11:17-19) It would have been murder if Isaac would have never rose from the dead.
Quote:The law is not founded in mere randomness, but in the Personhood of God, it is a representation of who He is. It is part of the foundation of reality.
and that what He pleases to command is, on that very account, just and righteous It follows that, although our works are to be examined by the revealed will of God, and be denominated materially good or evil, as they agree or disagree with it, yet the works of God Himself cannot be brought to any test whatever; for, His will being the grand universal law, He Himself cannot be, properly speaking, subject to or obliged by any law superior to that.
The purpose of the law is to teach one of the character of the LawGiver also to guide and to guard us while directing us to mercy of the LawGiver (Galatians3:24)
When you say that God needs not to abide by law, you are claiming that HE is lawless and if HE does anything against the law, it automatically becomes leagal just because he does it.
This is rediculous!.
Quote:God reprobares men out of judgment!
Many things are done by Him, such as choosing and reprobating men, without any respect had to their works
Romans 1:28 God gave them over to a reprobate mind because they did not like to retain God in their knowledge
Quote:What!?! God being pleased with men falling into sin?
...suffering people to fall into sin, when, if it so pleased Him
Did you actual read this before you posted it?
This belongs it the trash and should not be taught, or read to or by the vulnerable.
| 2008/5/12 20:46||Profile|
Santa Cruz California
| Re: Personal Election (not corporate)|
Let me say.....
Ahh never mind, we've been through this before.
Seriously brother logic, can't you just leave it alone? Leave us poor Reformed folks to our "illogical" and "uneducated" theology.
After all, we "chose" to believe it ;-)
Unsaved man has a will set on sin and self period, end of story.
Unless his heart is changed, he will always desire sin. There is only One who can give Spiritual life and IT IS NOT any human being since all humans are dead in sin.
Learn to be comfortable with the grey areas brother. God elects who He will, and those whom He has elected will be saved because Christ's death has atoned for their sins and Christ intercedes for them.
Simple, easy, concise.
Can we talk about something else now?
| 2008/5/12 21:23||Profile|
| Re: Rom. 10:13|
For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
WHOSOEVER is the greek word Pas
Definition - individually
each, every, any, all, the whole, everyone, all things, everything
some of all types
... "the whole world has gone after him" Did all the world go after Christ? "then went all Judea, and were baptized of him in Jordan. "Was all Judea, or all Jerusalem, baptized in Jordan? "Ye are of God,little children", and the whole world lieth in the wicked one". Does the whole world there mean everybody? The words "world" and "all" are used in some seven or eight senses in Scripture, and it is very rarely the "all" means all persons, taken individually. The words are generally used to signify that Christ has redeemed some of all sorts-- some Jews, some Gentiles, some rich, some poor, and HAS NOT RESTRICTED HIS REDEMPTION TO EITHER JEW OR GENTILE ...
THUS SAITH THE LORD:
"I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show mercy on whom I will show mercy"
Exodus 33:19. (see also Romans 9:8-24)
"I, even I, am He, and there is no God with Me. I kill and I make alive; I wound and I heal; neither is there any that can deliver out of My hand"
"Behold He breaketh down, and it cannot be built again; He shutteth up a man, and there can be no opening"
"He doeth according to His will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth, and none can stay His hand, or say unto Him, What doest Thou?"
"Who hath saved us and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace, given us in Christ Jesus before the world began?"
II Timothy 1:9.
It was God's sovereign will that fixed the time of my birth. It is the same will that has fixed the day of my death. And was not the day of my conversion fixed as certainly by the same will? Or will any but "the fool" say that God has fixed by His will the day of our birth and death, but leaves us to fix the day of our conversion by our own will; that is, leave us to decide whether we shall be converted or not? If the day of conversion be fixed, then it cannot be left to be determined by our own will. God determined, where and when, and how we should be born; and so He has determined where, and when, and how we shall be born again. If so, His will must go before ours in believing; and it is just because His will goes before ours that we become willing to believe. Were it not for this, we should never have believed at all. If man's will precedes God's will in everything relating to himself, then I do not see how any of God's plans can be carried into effect. Man would be left to manage the world in his own way. God must not fix the time of his conversion, for that would be an interference with man's responsibility. Nay, He must not fix that he shall be converted at all, for that must be left to himself and to his own will. He must not fix how many are to be converted, for that would be making His own invitation a mere mockery, and man's responsibility a pretence! He may turn a stray star into its course again by a direct forth-putting of power, and be unchallenged for interference with the laws of nature. But to stretch out His arm and arrest a human will in its devious course, so as to turn it back again to holiness, is an unwarrantable exercise of His power, and an encroachment upon man's liberty! What a world! where man gets all his own way, where God is not allowed to interfere, except in the way that man calls lawful! What a world! where everything turns upon man's will;--where the whole current of events in the world or in the church is regulated, shaped, impelled by man's will alone. God's will is but a secondary thing. Its part is to watch events, and follow in the track of man's! Man wills, and God must say-Amen!
In all this opposition to the absolute will of God, we see the self-will of the last days manifesting itself. Man wanted to be a god at the first, and he continues the struggle to the last. He is resolved that his will shall take the precedence of God's. In the last Antichrist, this self-will shall be summed up and exhibited. He is the king that is to do "according to his will". And in the freewill controversy of the day, we see the same spirit displayed. It is Antichrist that is speaking to us, and exhorting us to proud independence. Self-will is the essence of anti-christian religion. Self-will is the root of bitterness, that is springing up in the churches in these days. And it is not from above, it is from beneath. It is earthly, sensual, devilish.
Man's dislike at God's sovereignty arises from his suspicion of God's heart. And yet the men in our day, who deny this absolute sovereignty, are the very men who profess to rejoice in the love of God,--who speak of that love as if there were nothing else in God but love. The more I understand of the character of God, as revealed in Scripture, the more shall I see that He must be sovereign, and the more shall I rejoice from my inmost heart that He is so.
| 2008/5/12 21:41|
Seriously brother logic, can't you just leave it alone? Leave us poor Reformed folks to our "illogical" and "uneducated" theology.
I can never understand why it seems so difficult for some to "allow" God to do the choosing. Not only that, after being chosen, to have to insist upon otherwise.....and...despite all that's found proclaimed [i]throughout[/i] the [i]entire[/i] Bible.
In Christ, (chosen from among the weak and the foolish, whom,if left alone, will never choose Him, neither able nor qualified to do so!!)
| 2008/5/12 22:30||Profile|
At least answer what criteria does God use in choosing the Elect?
We all know that HE does not elect arbitrarily.
Why does HE not elect?
| 2008/5/12 22:52||Profile|
Quote:Why or How does He choose?
I can never understand why it seems so difficult for some to "allow" God to do the choosing.
| 2008/5/12 22:59||Profile|
| Re: BEGOTTEN OF GOD|
John 1:12,13 but as many as did receive him to them he gave authority to become sons of God -- to those believing in his name, who not of blood nor of a will of flesh, nor of a will of man but of God were begotten. (YLT)
Rom. 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
James 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.
Eph 1:5-11 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself. That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will.
Rev. 17:17 God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.
John 6:63 It is the Spirit that gives life. The flesh does not profit, nothing! The Words which I speak to you are spirit and are life. (LITV) It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. (KJV)
That having been generated out of the flesh is flesh, and that having been generated out of the Spirit is spirit. (LITV)
that which hath been born of the flesh is flesh, and that which hath been born of the Spirit is spirit.(YLT) That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.(KJV)
1 John 5:1 Every one who is believing that Jesus is the Christ, of God he hath been begotten, and every one who is loving Him who did beget, doth love also him who is begotten of Him. (YLT)
2 Cor. 5:17 So that if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new!
1 Cor. 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
Rom 11:36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.
| 2008/5/12 23:04|
| Re: THE ISRAEL OF GOD|
Why or How does He choose?
Deut 7:6-8 For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth. The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people: 8 But because the LORD loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the LORD brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.
Why does HE not elect?
Romans 9:6-13 Not, however, that God's Word has failed. For not all those of Israel are Israel, nor because they are Abraham's seed are all children, but "In Isaac a Seed shall be called to you." Gen. 21:12 That is: Not the children of flesh are children of God, but the children of the promise are counted for a seed. For the Word of promise is this, "According to this time I will come, and a son will be to Sarah." Gen. 18:10 And not only so, but also Rebekah conceiving of one, our father Isaac, for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of the One calling, it was said to her, "The greater shall serve the lesser;" Gen. 25:23 even as it has been written, "I loved Jacob, and I hated Esau." Mal. 1:2, 3
Job 40:1-14 And Jehovah answered Job and said: Shall a reprover contend with the Almighty? He who reproves God, let him answer it. Then Job answered Jehovah and said: Behold, I am vile! What shall I answer You? I will put my hand to my mouth. Once I have spoken, but I will not answer; yea, twice, but I will go no further.
And Jehovah answered Job out of the tempest and said: Now gird up your loins like a man, and I will question you; and you make Me to know. Will you also set aside My judgment; will you condemn Me so that you may be justified? And have you an arm like God; or can you thunder with a voice like His? Adorn yourself with majesty now, and with grandeur, and clothe yourself with glory and honor; pour forth the outbursts of your anger; yea, look on everyone who is proud, and bring him down low; look on everyone who is proud, and humble him, and trample the wicked in their place; hide them in the dust together; bind their faces in darkness. Then I also will confess to you that your right hand can save you.
Job 42:1-6 And Job answered Jehovah and said: I know that You can do all, and no purpose is withheld from You. Who is this hiding counsel without knowledge? So I declared, but did not understand things too wonderful for me; yea, I did not know. I pray, Listen, and I will speak; I will ask You, and You will make me know. I have heard of You by hearing of the ear, but now my eye has seen You; Therefore, I despise myself , and I have repented on dust and ashes.
Rom. 11:33-36 O the depth of the riches and of the wisdom and the knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out! "For who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who became His counselor?" Isa. 40:13 "Or who first gave to Him, and it will be repaid to him?" Job 41:11 Because of Him, and through Him, and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever! Amen.
| 2008/5/12 23:44|
Quote:We are talking about personal election, not corperate.
Quote:Deut 7:6-8 For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth. The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people: 8 But because the LORD loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the LORD brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.
Why or How does He choose?
Why and how does HE choose individuals, What criteria doies HE base HIS decisions on?
Quote:Again, personal election, not corperate. Quote:Romans 9:6-13 Not, however, that God's Word has failed. For not all those of Israel are Israel, nor because they are Abraham's seed are all children, but "In Isaac a Seed shall be called to you."
Why does HE not elect?
Quote:I'm not contending with God, but those who say God chooses arbitrarily, or if it is unknowable, just say so.
Job 40:1-14 And Jehovah answered Job and said: Shall a reprover contend with the Almighty?
| 2008/5/12 23:57||Profile|
| Re: God is God|
The answer to the corporate is the same as the personal:
John 15:16 Ye have NOT chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, AND THAT YOUR FRUIT SHOULD REMAIN.
Rom. 1:1 Paul, a slave of Jesus Christ, a called apostle, separated to the gospel of God.
1 Cor. 1:1 Paul, a called apostle of Jesus Christ, by the will of God, and Sosthenes the brother.
2 Cor. 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ, through the will of God, and Timothy the brother, to the assembly of God being in Corinth, with all the saints being in all Achaia.
Gal. 1:1 Paul, an apostle, not from men nor through man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father, the One raising Him from the dead.
Titus 1:1 Paul, a slave of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ according to the faith of the elect of God and full knowledge of the truth according to godliness.
Jude 1:1 Jude, a slave of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to the ones called in God the Father, having been set apart, and having been kept to Jesus Christ.
The answer from the Word of God ought to be sufficient.
Reread the verses I have provided in my posts in this thread alone and see if you find the answer from Him.
God alone is Lawgiver,Judge,Jury,and Executioner. He answers to none.
What law would you place Him under?
| 2008/5/13 0:28|