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Logic
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Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Personal Election (not corporate)

The unlearned have God electing some with out purpose, as electing some and not others, merely because he could or would. In other words, to exhibit his own sovereignty without any other reason than "just because HE wants to and that HE can".

It is a fact that God is infinite in grace and benevalency, all loving and merciful. It is therefore impossible that he should choose or act arbitrarily in any case whatsoever. He must have good and sufficient reasons for every choice and every act.
Therefore, election is not an act of arbitrary choice from a sovereign will. It is not arbitrarily the choosing and acting from mere will alone, but from the wisdom of moral obligation and the priority of HIS righteousness (doing what is right without partiality).

There is another defense in the “Unconditional election” myth is that God does not have to save all.
Some say that God is not obligated to pardon all mankind because they are guilty in the first place. The example they give is that a judge is justified in pardoning one criminal and not the other.
However, if God would pardon one and not the other HE would be showing partiality in His pardoning if the two criminals are all together equal in there crimes, which all mankind are.
Furthermore, God does not pardon arbitrarily, HE pardons from the reason of mercy upon request. Nonetheless, God's mercy has conditions based upon standards of conduct (Matthew 18:32-35).

The reason for electing certain men and not others must be based upon the foreknowledge that they will submit to the truth and ask for the mercy that is offered. In other words, God must have known whom he could save.

Election does not imply any obstacle to the salvation of the non-elect; it only implies the defiance and impenitence of the non-elect.
The fact that God saves only some does not imply any hindrance to those who will not be saved, but the stubborn refusal to be saved of those who are not elected.
The fact that God saves only some does not imply that God does not want to save them, but that HE can not.
Atonement is required for the reason of proving the true worth of God and His character which the law represents in relation to the crime committed in order for Him to forgive sin.
The one being atoned for must change in order for him to be forgiven. He must first meet the set conditions in order for the atonement to be applied for the forgiveness. This proves that the one atoned for knows the true value of the one who is forgiving so he knows that he can not take this whole thing lightly.
If the one refuses to acknowledge the true value and worth of God and refuses to meet the set conditions in order to be forgiven; if he takes lightly all that God has said and done to forgive, God can not forgive.

No one can possibly deny that God has made it possible for salvation of all. He certainly offers to save all, and has done all HE could and is doing all HE can do to save as many as HE can.
Those who are not elected may be saved, if they will comply with the set conditions, which they are able to do.
These conditions are not impossible to anyone; God can no give anything more than that HE has already given to all mankind.

There is no injustice to the non-elect by the election of only some. If he offers salvation to all upon terms that HE has set and if he does all he can for the salvation of all, shall some complain about God saving only some and not all?
The doctrine of election will damn no one by God's choice, but by the stubborn rebellion of the unrepentant.
Election does not secure the salvation of the elect irrespective of their character and conduct; election does it throw any obstacle in the way of the salvation of the non-elect.
God not electing according to what they deserve does them no injustice; and surely his exercising grace in the salvation of the elect is no act of injustice to the non-elect, for they must have received the same amount of grace as was bestowed upon the elect. Their judgment is not because they were not elected, but because they refused to repent.

This will appear to be true if we take into consideration the fact that the only reason why the non-elect will not be saved is because they stubbornly refuse salvation.
If the non-elect are condemned just because they are non-elect and not only because they did not repent, they would have a valid complaint for their condemnation. It would be that God did not do all HE could to forgive them without being partial.

 2008/5/11 13:47Profile









 Re: Humanism or Soli Deo Gloria


But he is unchangeable, and who can turn him back? What he desires, that he does. (Job 23:13)

“I know that you can do all things, and that no purpose of yours can be thwarted.” (Job 42:2)

For I know that the Lord is great, and that our Lord is above all gods.
Whatever the Lord pleases, he does, in heaven and on earth, in the seas and all deeps. (Psalm 135:5-6)

What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin, as it is written: “None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one.” “Their throat is an open grave; they use their tongues to deceive.” “The venom of asps is under their lips.” “Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness.” “Their feet are swift to shed blood; in their paths are ruin and misery, and the way of peace they have not known.” “There is no fear of God before their eyes.” (Romans 3:9-1

For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, declares the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts. (Isaiah 55:8-9)

There is a way that seems right to a man, but its end is the way to death. (Proverbs 14:12)

Humanism: A system of thought that centers on humans and their values, capacities, and worth; the doctrine emphasizing a person’s capacity for self-realization through reason

Reformed Theology - the theological system which emphasizes the omnipotence of God and salvation by grace alone

If you haven’t done so already, please prayerfully read the scripture I have placed at the beginning of this chapter as well as the definitions for “Humanism” and “Reformed Theology.”

God is sovereign. He is omnipotent. He is perfect. He is Holy. He is Just. He is immutable. That means He does not change. He spoke His truth at the beginning of creation and that truth is still the truth now and will be for all eternity. God said in Isaiah 55:8-9 that His thoughts and ways are not as ours are. In fact His thoughts and ways are infinitely higher than ours. When I say “ours” I am speaking of all mankind. There are no exceptions. God said this to Isaiah and Isaiah wrote it down. It is given to us in the Bible which is the perfect Word of God.

Take those statements and compare them with Romans 3:9-18. Now who has a problem? Is it God or is it Man? All men, women and children are sinners. All descendants of Adam are sinners. We are born sinners. Sin lives in us. It separates us from God who is Holy and Perfect. Many claim that this gap between Man and God is easily bridged by good men exercising their Free Will to choose to accept God’s offer of grace. However, the Word of God says something very different.

And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. (Ephesians 2:1-10)

This word “dead” in this passage is the Greek word “Nekros.” It can mean natural death, but of course that meaning would be ludicrous in this context. In this passage the meaning is clear. Paul was telling us that the natural, unsaved person’s soul is separated from the enlivening influences of divine light and spirit as a dead body is separated from the material light and air. The spiritual condition of a lost person, an unregenerate person, is one of death. There is no spiritual capability in them. They are completely controlled by their soul while their spirit is cutoff from God because of the presence of sin.

What is the solution? Look again at Ephesians 2:1-10. While we were in our sins God provided a way for hopelessly lost people to be saved. Is it by those lost people choosing to be saved? The humanist says that man is smart enough to make that decision through reason. However, the Bible says the opposite. No one seeks after God. No one seeks after righteousness. So how do sinful people get saved?

Salvation is by grace through faith. That salvation is a gift of God. It is not of works. Boasting is excluded. (Romans 3:27) Therefore, this act of acquiring saving faith must come about by some means that excludes Man’s ability to boast about it. However, if it is by choice then all saved people can boast. They can say that they made the right decision while lost people haven’t. There must be something in them that is superior to those who are still in their sins. Therefore, that form of salvation is in serious conflict with scripture. Salvation, to be biblical, must come about in such a way that excludes the possibility of saved people being able to boast about it.

Humanism says that God made the universe and provided salvation for the happiness of Man. After all, everything God does is for the happiness of Man isn’t it? Since God does all of this for Man’s happiness then salvation must be a reward to those who choose to do right so they can be happy. Is this Biblical? I can’t find that scenario anywhere in scripture.

Humanism says that the end of all things is for the happiness of Man. However, the Bible says that God does everything for His own glory. Why did He provide this gracious salvation for sinful men? Was it to make Humanism true? Was it to make Man happy? Or was it to bring God glory? It is for God’s glory alone.

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth. In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory. (Ephesians 1:3-14)

God did not leave salvation of Men up to Men. Why? If it was left up to Men then no one could be saved. Remember Romans 3. No one seeks after God. No one does right. It would never happen. Therefore, God chose or elected all of His people before creation. He looked into the future and foreknew or fore-loved His people. He placed His affection and purpose on them. Why? Was it because they deserved it? No, remember, no one deserves salvation. That is why salvation must be by grace alone.

God elected His people and predestined that they should be conformed unto the image of His Son. What criteria did He use? This decision was according to the counsel of His will and it was to the praise of His glory. Therefore, this salvation plan would be His work alone. If not then how could it be for His glory alone?

This salvation would accomplish the forgiveness of the elect’s sins. Of course we know that the sacrifice of the Lord Jesus Christ on the cross as the Lamb of God accomplished this. It bought the salvation of the elect. How does an elect sinner get saved?

For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified. (Romans 8:29-30)

God has commanded believers to preach the Gospel. This presenting of the Gospel is used by the Holy Spirit to plow the heart of the elect. This preaching is the general call of the Gospel. However, no one is saved until the Holy Spirit makes the call Effectual to them. That is the calling mentioned in Romans 8:29-30. This is the actual regeneration of the heart of a person. This regeneration changes a spiritually dead person into a new creation. This new creation can now respond to the Gospel. This regeneration enables the new believer to see their utter lostness before a Holy and Just God. They see their sin and their unworthiness before Him. In light of this he or she believes and repents. God then immediately justifies them. This is Justification by Faith. This is the same as God declaring Abraham righteous because He believed God. God follows our justification with adoption into His family and begins the sanctification process which prepares us for glorification in eternity.

Why did I go through all of that? I wanted to contrast what the Bible teaches about salvation with how the Compromised Church does it. Humanism has so penetrated the Church to the point where it has been glossed and covered over with the doctrines of Men. It sounds Biblical. It sounds “Churchy.” Here are a few examples. “Try Jesus! You’ve done things your way long enough. Put Jesus in your life so it will be better! Ask Jesus to come into your heart so that you won’t go to Hell.”

The genuine Gospel presentation that the Holy Spirit uses to prepare the Hearts of those He will effectually call contrasts God’s Holiness and Righteousness and Justice with Man’s sinfulness and spiritual bankruptcy. The Compromised Church’s version of the Gospel is more like a sales pitch. It is geared to making salvation appealing to lost people by making it cheap. The Genuine Gospel is costly. Jesus said that to be His disciple we have to deny self and take up our cross and follow Him. That means dying to self. That is costly grace. The cheap grace of the Compromised Church does not even mention repentance or the Lordship of Jesus Christ.

What is the end result of this? Those who are saved by the genuine Gospel are God’s Elect who have regenerated hearts and are new creations. Those who think they are saved by the easy-believism of the Compromised Church are simply religious. There has been no regenerative work in their hearts. They are not genuine.

Humanism’s god is Man. The humanists may acknowledge God, but only as a means to an end. Their version of Christianity is not Biblical. It is full of fleshly and worldly ways. It is more for entertainment rather than for God’s glory alone. Since the Holy Spirit is not in it they must counterfeit His presence with High Octane music and false spirituality that is nothing more than people being emotional.

The Genuine Church’s God is God Almighty, the Living God. He will be no one’s means to and end. He is the end of all things. Those who know Him will be those He has elected, called, regenerated, justified, adopted, sanctified and glorified. Their worship of God is in Spirit and Truth. They are not perfect, but are growing in grace and maturity according to God’s will.

The Compromised Church is not of God. Even though these churches may say they are serving and worshipping God, they are, in fact, serving Man. They may be very entertaining and appealing places of worship, but that is because they are geared to appeal to the flesh. Genuine worship of the Living God never appeals to the flesh. Instead, it is God focused. It reveals what God has done or it emphasizes His attributes. In contrast the worship in the Compromised Church focuses on what people do or have done or what benefit they get from their religion.

by Mike Ratliff

 2008/5/12 10:27









 Re: Personal Election (not corporate)

Quote:
The [b]unlearned[/b] have God electing some with out purpose...



Well, there is a lot I could say about this post, but do not wish to get into it all this morning.

However, I will say this... calling those who may disagree with a particular aspect of a systematic theology "unlearned" is unneccessary. It wreaks of an elitist attitude, and implies that because you believe a certain way you are smart and learn-ed... and anyone who may disagree with you is either stupid and uneducated.

This is an ungodly attitude.

It's one thing for someone to come here and promote something like WOF, or the Lakeland "revival", and not know enough scripture to back up their position. But there are plenty of "well educated" theolgians out there that would disagree with this article.

Using words like "unlearned" is merely an insulting "cheap-shot" way of shutting up those who would oppose... because no one wants to be considered "unlearned". And the use of "Humanism" in this thread is also wrong. This is nothing more than higher level name calling. "You are not Reformed? Then you're a humanist!"

Those who do not subscribe to particular aspects are not Humanists. This is a silly assertion.

It's a poor way to present a theological position.

Krispy

 2008/5/12 11:56
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:

KrispyKrittr wrote:
Quote:
The [b]unlearned[/b] have God electing some with out purpose...

calling those who may disagree with a particular aspect of a systematic theology "unlearned" is unneccessary. It wreaks of an elitist attitude, and implies that because you believe a certain way you are smart and learn-ed... and anyone who may disagree with you is either stupid and uneducated.

Sorry, my point was that it implies that one has not though their belifes all the way through to the logical conclusion.

Quote:
Using words like "unlearned" is merely an insulting "cheap-shot" way of shutting up those who would oppose... because no one wants to be considered "unlearned"

Is one learned if they believe God elects arbitrarily?

Huminist? I am farthest from that.
I believe that God must work in the paramiters of logic and reason.
If ones says that I am using "human logic", "human reasoning" and "human justice", what other kind of logice and reason is there?

They will say that human every thing is of the "fallen nature" and we should not rely on it. But, that is all we have, we all use "human logic", "human reasoning" and "human justice" even to interperat divine things.

Quote:
It's a poor way to present a theological position.

I am sorry, But I remeber being up set while I wrote this.
The person who unduced me, made God out to be a devilish tyrant, which alot of "Reformed" and Calvinists do.

If you would, please rufute my post, point by point and I will give my best reason for stating what I did.

I will be persuaded by the truth. All truth makes sence and is "humanly" logical and is seen by "human" reason, which is also in the relm of "huiman" Justice"

This is not Humanism, but reality.

 2008/5/12 13:52Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
wisevirgin wrote:

But he is unchangeable, and who can turn him back? What he desires, that he does. (Job 23:13...ect...

I am getting back with you soon.

 2008/5/12 13:59Profile









 Re: UNLEARNED LOGICIANS

Would we have the power of God so limited as to be unable to do more than our mind can comprehend? The Lord has created those who, as he certainly foreknew, were to go to destruction, and he did so because he so willed. Why he willed it is not ours to ask, as we cannot comprehend, nor can it become us even to raise a controversy as to the justice of the divine will. Whenever we speak of it, we are speaking of the supreme standard of justice. But when justice clearly appears, why should we raise any question of injustice? Let us not, therefore, be ashamed to stop their mouths after the example of Paul. Whenever they presume to carp, let us begin to repeat: Who are ye,miserable men, that bring an accusation against God, and bring it because he does not adapt the greatness of his works to your meager capacity? As if every thing must be perverse that is hidden from the flesh. The immensity of the divine judgments is known to you by clear experience. You know that they are called "a great deep", (Ps. 36: 6.)Now, look at the narrowness of your own minds and say whether it can comprehend the decrees of God. Why then should you, by infatuated inquisitiveness, plunge yourselves into an abyss which reason itself tells you will prove your destruction? Why are you not deterred, in some degree at least, by what the Book of Job, as well as the Prophetical books declare concerning the incomprehensible wisdom and dreadful power of God? If your mind is troubled, decline not to embrace this counsel , "You a man expect an answer from me: I also am a man. Wherefore, let us both listen to him who says, 'O man, who art thou?' Believing ignorance is better than presumptuous knowledge.Seek merits; you will find nought but punishment. O the height! Peter denies, a thief believes. O the height! Do you ask the reason? I will tremble at the height. Reason you, I will wonder; dispute you, I will believe. I see the height; I cannot sound the depth. Paul found rest, because he found wonder. He calls the judgments of God 'unsearchable;' and have you come to search them? He says that his ways are 'past finding out,' and do you seek to find them out?" We shall gain nothing by proceeding farther. For neither will the Lord satisfy the petulance of these men, nor does he need any other defense than that which he used by his Spirit, who spoke by the mouth of Paul. We unlearn the art of speaking well when we cease to speak with God.

The punishment of the non-elect was not the ultimate end of their creation, but the glory of God. It is frequently objected that predestination implies, "God makes some persons on purpose to damn them," but this we never advanced; nay, we utterly reject it as equally unworthy of God to do and of a rational being to suppose. The grand, principal end, proposed by the Deity to Himself in His formation of all things, and of mankind in particular, was the manifestation and display of His own glorious attributes. His ultimate scope in the creation of the elect is to evidence and make known by their salvation the unsearchable riches of His power and wisdom, mercy and love, and the creation of the non-elect is for the display of His justice, power, sovereignty, holiness and truth. So that nothing can be more certain than the declaration of the text, "The Lord hath made all things for Himself, even the wicked for the day of evil" (Prov.16:4). On one hand, the vessels of wrath are fitted for destruction,in order that God may "show His wrath and make His power known," and manifest the greatness of His patience and longsuffering (Rom. 9:32). On the other hand, He afore prepared the elect to salvation, that on them He might demonstrate "the riches of His glory and mercy" (ver 23). As, therefore, God Himself is the sole Author and efficient of all His own actions, so is He likewise the supreme end to which they lead and in which they terminate. " Sin," says the apostle, "entered into the world by one man," meaning by Adam, consequently if I hold a book or a stone in my hand, my holding it is the immediate cause of its not falling; but if I let it go, my letting it go is not the immediate cause of its falling: it is carried downwards by its own gravity, which is therefore the causa proxima effectus, the proper and immediate cause of its descent. It is true, if I had kept my hold of it, it would not have fallen, yet still the immediate, direct cause of its fall is its own weight, not my quitting my hold. The application of this to the providence of God, as concerned in sinful events, is easy. Without God, there could have been no creation; without creation, no creatures; without creatures, no sin. It may seem absurd to human wisdom that God should harden, blind and deliver up some men to a reprobate sense - that He should first deliver them over to evil, and then condemn them for that evil - but the believing spiritual man sees no absurdity at all in this, knowing that God would be never a whit less good, even though He should destroy all men. It is not to be understood," says he, "as if God found men good, wise and tractable, and then made them wicked, foolish and obdurate; but God, finding them depraved, judicially and powerfully excites them just as they are (unless it is His will to regenerate any of them), and, by thus exciting them, they become more blind and obstinate than they were before. As Lord or Sovereign of all, He does as He will (and has a most unquestionable right to do so) with His own, and in particular fixes and determines the everlasting state of every individual person, as He sees fit. It is essential to absolute sovereignty that the sovereign have it in his power to dispose of those over whom his jurisdiction extends, just as he pleases, without being accountable to any; and God, whose authority is unbounded, none being exempt from it, may, with the strictest holiness and justice, love or hate, elect or reprobate, save or destroy any of His creatures, whether human or angelic, according to His own free pleasure and sovereign purpose. Whatever things God wills or does are not willed and done by Him because they were in their own nature and previously to His willing them, just and right, or because, from their intrinsic fitness, He ought to will and do them; but they are therefore just, right and proper because He, who is holiness itself, wills and does them. Hence, Abraham looked upon it as a righteous action to slay his innocent son. Why did he so esteem it, because the law of God authorised murder? No; for, on the contrary, both the law of God and the law of nature peremptorily forbade it; but the holy patriarch well knew that the will of God is the only rule of justice, and that what He pleases to command is, on that very account, just and righteous It follows that, although our works are to be examined by the revealed will of God, and be denominated materially good or evil, as they agree or disagree with it, yet the works of God Himself cannot be brought to any test whatever; for, His will being the grand universal law, He Himself cannot be, properly speaking, subject to or obliged by any law superior to that. Many things are done by Him, such as choosing and reprobating men, without any respect had to their works; suffering people to fall into sin, when, if it so pleased Him, He might prevent it; leaving many back sliding professors to go on and perish in their apostacy, when it is in His Divine power to sanctify and set them right; drawing some by His grace, and permitting many others to continue in sin and unregeneracy; condemning those to future misery whom, if He pleased, He could undoubtedly save; with innumerable instances of the like nature (which might be mentioned), and which, if done by us, would be apparently unjust, inasmuch as they would not square with the revealed will of God, which is the great and only safe rule of our practice. But when He does these and such like things, they cannot but be holy, equitable and worthy of Himself; for, since His will is essentially and unchangeably just, whatever He does, in consequence of that will, must be just and good likewise. I would infer that they who deny the power God has of doing as He will with His creatures, and exclaim against unconditional decrees as cruel, tyrannical and unjust, either know not what they say nor whereof they affirm, or are wilful blasphemers of His name and perverse rebels against His sovereignty, to which, at last, however unwillingly, they will be forced to submit. It follows that, whatever favour is bestowed on us, whatever good thing is in us or wrought by us, whether in will, word or deed, and whatever blessings else we receive from God, from election quite home to glorification, all proceed, merely and entirely, from the good pleasure of His will and His mercy towards us in Christ Jesus. To Him therefore the praise is due, who putteth the difference between man and man by having compassion on some and not on others. (JZ) PRAISE GOD!

 2008/5/12 15:19
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3706
Ca.

 Re:

I think God is pretty up front and plain about who is in charge of the choosing.

Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Psalms 25:12 What man is he that feareth the LORD? him shall He teach in the way that he shall choose.

In the way that he shall choose - The way that the person ought to choose; or, in other words, in the right way. There is none that feareth the Lord. It is not the way that God shall choose, but the way that the pious person ought to choose, but will not. God will so instruct him that chooses that he shall find the true path.

Romans 9:20-21 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

The fulness of it:

Romans 9:8-24 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son. And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;) It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

In Christ: Phillip


_________________
Phillip

 2008/5/12 15:46Profile









 Re: RE: LOGIC

I believe most on SI would be familiar with the name Isaac Watts, known for his many great hymns. His classic book "Logic: The Right Use of Reason in The Inquiry After Truth" may be of interest if indeed it is logic one would know.

An excerpt: "As the first work of the mind is perception, whereby our ideas are framed, and the second is judgment, which joins or disjoins our ideas, and forms a proposition; so the third operation of the mind is reasoning, which joins several propositions together, and makes a syllogism, that is, an argument whereby we are wont to infer some things that are less known, from truths which are more evident" (page 270)

A much smaller work, yet highly recommended as well would be that by Gordon Haddon Clarke entitled, "LOGIC".


"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. It is written in the prophets, 'AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me". John 6:44,45


 2008/5/12 15:49
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4501


 Re:

"For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."
- Romans 10:13

This includes WHOSOEVER. That means anyone and everyone.

I've often laughed at the attempt to undermine the idea of a "free will" in regard to salvation and the security of the believer. By focusing so much on the idea of predestination, election, etc... -- it is as some believe that nothing that we do makes a difference. But "calling upon the name of the Lord" makes a difference.

God is eternal. As Isaiah said, He knows the end from the beginning. He is on the outside of time looking in. From such a perspective, God knew whether we were going to serve Him or neglect Him. I feel that this is the extent of our "election." From the timelessness of Eternity, God knows who will ultimately choose Him and who will ultimately reject Him. But that doesn't make free will any less important. To be one of those who God already knew (and knows) will be one of His elect, we must still call upon the name of the Lord. Otherwise, I can say with certainty that you are NOT one of the "elect."

By his writings, we know that acclaimed English physicist Stephen Hawking is certainly not a believer. Yet he made a funny remark in his book, [i]A Brief History of Time[/i]. He said, "I have noticed even people who claim everything is predestined, and that we can do nothing to change it, look before they cross the road."

If our ultimate "election" is already determined, then why do we participate in anything? It seem pointless if our eternal condition is already CHOSEN by God. But, if we are ultimately the choosers of our own destiny, then the outcome of our lives -- already known by God since before the foundations of the world were laid -- is still ultimately up to our decisions to call upon the Lord.

:-)

BTW...

While God formed us (like clay in the hands of a potter), he didn't form our "free will." Free will is what allowed Adam and Eve to disobey. It is also why so many still choose to walk away from Him. We are not robots, puppets or even fish in a fishtank called "life" that follow identical patterns of movement according to the will of our Creator. We choose to have our being in Him, just as many choose to neglect Him. God draws ALL MEN to come unto Him; yet, only a few choose to respond to that call. He did, after all, love and die for the entire world (John 3:16-17).


_________________
Christopher

 2008/5/12 15:57Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

wisevirgin:

If you wanting to refute my post, it is best by refuting point by point as you will see, I have made points already to your response.
The challenge that you face is by what criteria does He choose to elect?
You give no response to this question, which is the basis of my entire post.

Do you claim that God elects upon arbitrary reasons or by certain criteria?
What are these criteria?

Furthermore, You built a straw man, which I will help you burn. The straw man of Humanism, is not anything that I promote.
I never claimed Humanism in my post or gave anything that implies it.

Quote:
Humanism: A system of thought that centers on humans and their values, capacities, and worth; the doctrine emphasizing a person's capacity for self-realization through reason

I am not promoting Humanism.

Logic: n. [L. id; Gr. from reason, to speak.]
The art of thinking and reasoning justly.
Logic is the art of using reason well in our inquiries after truth, and the communication of it to others.
Correct reasoning implies correct thinking and legitimate inferences from premises, which are principles assumed or admitted to be justifiable. Logic then includes the art of thinking, as well as the art of reasoning.
The purpose of logic is to direct the intellectual powers in the investigation of truth, and in the communication of it to others.

Quote:
Reformed Theology - emphasizes the omnipotence of God and salvation by grace alone

Reformed Theology - the omnipotence of God makes Him to be a tyrannical oppressor of those whom he damns by partiality.

Choosing whom He will save arbitrarily, By will only; despotically.
Arbitrary power is most easily established on the ruins of liberty which is abused to excessive indulgence, contempt of the just restraints of law, morality and propriety of behavior, decency and grace.

I have not set my points on humanism but by reason and logic which upholds justice.

You have God saving anybody for no reason at all accept that "just because HE wants to and that HE can".

You are forgetting that salvation is by grace and faith alone, and if it is up to God that He is responsible to provide the faith first in order to save, then you make God responsible for the lack of faith of those whom He damns.

Quote:
God is sovereign. He is omnipotent. He is perfect. He is Holy. He is Just. He is immutable. That means He does not change. He spoke His truth at the beginning of creation and that truth is still the truth now and will be for all eternity. God said in Isaiah 55:8-9 that His thoughts and ways are not as ours are. In fact His thoughts and ways are infinitely higher than ours. When I say “ours” I am speaking of all mankind. There are no exceptions. God said this to Isaiah and Isaiah wrote it down. It is given to us in the Bible which is the perfect Word of God.

Isaiah 55:8-9 actually proves my case, for it is up to the person to forsake his way before God will have mercy upon him and abundantly pardon him.
This is not according to an arbitrary act of sovereignty and omnipotence but of responding to obedience to His commands.

Isaiah 55:7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

Even the certain king would not pardon and/or have mercy upon the man who begged for mercy and forgiveness because he did not do his part.(Matthew 18:32-35)
Furthermore, the man had to ask for mercy first before the King would forgive, it was not arbitrary.

Quote:
Take those statements and compare them with Romans 3:9-18. Now who has a problem? Is it God or is it Man? All men, women and children are sinners. All descendants of Adam are sinners. We are born sinners. Sin lives in us.

Sin is not an entity that lives, not to mention that would live "in us".
Man is a sinner by choice. If it wasn't by choice, he'd be innocent.

Quote:
It separates us from God who is Holy and Perfect. Many claim that this gap between Man and God is easily bridged by good men exercising their Free Will to choose to accept God's offer of grace. However, the Word of God says something very different.

You are greatly misinformed, if not ignoring the facts.
Why does God command for men to repent?
If it isn't by choice, God would not command it for people to choose to obey or disobey?

Quote:
This word “dead” in this passage is the Greek word “Nekros.” It can mean natural death, but of course that meaning would be ludicrous in this context. In this passage the meaning is clear. Paul was telling us that the natural, unsaved person's soul is separated from the enlivening influences of divine light and spirit as a dead body is separated from the material light and air.

A dead body is not dead because it is separated from the material light and air, but because the spirit is separated from the body (James 1:2)

Quote:
The spiritual condition of a lost person, an unregenerate person, is one of death.

Spiritual death is only having no relationship with God, that is all, nothing else.

Quote:
There is no spiritual capability in them.

Faith is not a spiritual capability.
Fact is, all mankind has faith, but they choose to put their faith in/on the wrong object/person.
There is not difference between "Salviffic faith" and other faith, but whom/what one puts their faith on/in.

Quote:
They are completely controlled by their soul while their spirit is cut off from God because of the presence of sin.

Scripture never gives the being controlled of the soul to be wrong, but only the flesh.

Quote:
The humanist says that man is smart enough to make that decision through reason. However, the Bible says the opposite. No one seeks after God. No one seeks after righteousness. So how do sinful people get saved?

One may seek the truth and find God in the process.

Quote:
Salvation is by grace through faith. That salvation is a gift of God. It is not of works. Boasting is excluded.

The first half of the verse Ephesians 2:8 belongs together, “For by grace you have been saved through faith” – dia pisteôs functions as the “indirect object” clause of este sesôsmenoi.

Likewise, the second half is a contrast which only makes sense in a “not x but y” clause, “and this (state of affairs) is not of yourselves, it is God’s gift,.”

Hence the verse should be rendered, “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this state of affairs is not of yourselves, it is God’s gift.”
Ephesians 2:8 is a process of salvation, the way you put it is eliminating the process and jumping straight to the salvation.

Quote:
(Romans 3:27) Therefore, this act of acquiring saving faith must come about by some means that excludes Man's ability to boast about it.

There is not difference between "Salviffic faith" and other faith, but whom/what one puts their faith on/in.
There is nothing to boast about in humbling ones self to repent.
There is nothing to boast about in obedience to the command to repent(Acts 17:30)
There is nothing to boast about the ability to believing(having faith).

Quote:
However, if it is by choice then all saved people can boast

How so?
If it is a command and we have a choice to rebel, then we must have choice to obey.
Obedience is not a "work" which is against salvation, it is with salvation, by acknowledging the truth that is revealed.

Quote:
They can say that they made the right decision while lost people haven't. There must be something in them that is superior to those who are still in their sins.

Nothing superior. How is making the correct choice a superiority?
Making the correct choice is commanded, it is our obligation & duty; none of these are commendable or to boast about.

Is it like we will be boasting in heaven like this, "Hey, hey, I obeyed that which I was commanded to do.
I am so proud to admit my sin.
I am so proud to admit my wretchedness.
I am so proud to admit that I was on my way to hell.
I am so proud to admit that I rebelled against the truth.
I am so proud to admit that I needed Jesus to save me from God's wrath.
I am so proud to admit it was my entire fault.

Quote:
God elected His people and predestined that they should be conformed unto the image of His Son. What criteria did He use? This decision was according to the counsel of His will and it was to the praise of His glory. Therefore, this salvation plan would be His work alone. If not then how could it be for His glory alone?

These are ambiguous reasons, they don't tell us the criteria on which He chose the Elect.
There must be criteria by which He chose to elect, otherwise it is all arbitrary.

Quote:
For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified. (Romans 8:29-30)

Foreknowledge is like this:
I know my wife so well that I make reservations to "Olive Garden" before I give her a choice to choose all the restaurants in the state.
She has all the chances to choose any restaurant she wills.
However, She chooses "Olive Garden" that was already pre-chosen by me with reservations because I foreknew that she would choose it.
Another example:
I invite all the people in my town to "Olive Garden", but I only make reservations for those who I know that will come.
While every one has an invitation and has equal chance to be with me and all have a choice to come or not, only those who I foreknow will choose to come are reserved to sit at my table.
Romans 8:29

Quote:
God has commanded believers to preach the Gospel. This presenting of the Gospel is used by the Holy Spirit to plow the heart of the elect. This preaching is the general call of the Gospel. However, no one is saved until the Holy Spirit makes the call Effectual to them. That is the calling mentioned in Romans 8:29-30.

The challenge that you face is by what criteria does He chose to elect?
This is the whole gist of my post.

Do you claim that God elect upon arbitrary reasons or by certain criteria?
What are these criteria?

 2008/5/12 17:07Profile





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