SermonIndex Audio Sermons
SermonIndex - Promoting Revival to this Generation
Give To SermonIndex
Discussion Forum : General Topics : Thoughts on my new tract? (before I print 5000!)

Print Thread (PDF)

Goto page ( Previous Page 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 Next Page )
PosterThread









 Re:

Quote:

roadsign wrote:
Quote:
When I attempt to adress this with people I simply ask them when they were born-again, the day and the hour. Any genuine Christian would love to share this information. Then I ask about their "experience." What did they "feel."



Looking back over my many years in evangelical churches, where salvation “experience” was the prime litmus test of authenticity, I now see your criteria questions in a different light. A person’s “feel” experience may indeed be a sense of God’s presence, his blessings, and like for ancient Israel in the desert, a taste of the Spirit (Heb.) There may even have been some degree of conviction, even the “appropriate” prayers, tears, and rituals. But eventually, mayby not for years, it becomes evident that the seeds fell on rocky soil.

Actually, there is no example in scripture where any of these means are used to assess authenticity. There may be a good reason for that. As humans we are remarkably chameleon-ish. That means, we can easily adapt to the environment we are in, and take in its colur, its social/spiritual expectations. And thus, it is natural to conform to the expectations. I am a good example of this.

In fact, I could use myself as a prime example of an “exception” to your model. The spiritual birth process in my life took far more than a “minute”, and often during that time I was aware of no “feel”. Much of the process involved a shedding of faulty thinking and false trusts.



The sanctification process takes a lifetime. Salvation is not a "past experience", but something we should "earn with fear and trembling", enduring in the faith until the end. If a dubious--even a true experience--some years ago is what we put our trust and hope in, we may easily be deceived. For having a testimony about a former period is a good thing, but it must continue in the present. So, in this sense, trying to get people to say yes to a five-minute "presentation of the Gospel" is not enough. Words mean different things to different people; even the clearest verse of Scripture can, to the unenlightened mind, mean nothing. So in this sense trying to get people "born-again", if you are going to let starve spiritually afterwards and get discouraged or deceived, is not the work of a good and caring shepherd. The Lord Jesus took the twelve and spent three years with them, breaking bread with them daily, and showing them eternal life:

[i]1Jn 1:1 That which was from the beginning, which [u]we have heard[/u], which [u]we have seen with our eyes[/u], which [u]we have looked upon[/u], and [u]our hands have handled[/u], concerning the Word of life--
1Jn 1:2 the life was manifested, and we have seen, and bear witness, and declare to you that eternal life which was with the Father and was manifested to us--
1Jn 1:3 that which we have seen and heard we declare to you, that you also may have fellowship with us; and truly our fellowship is with the Father and with His Son Jesus Christ.[/i]

He didn't just present them with a precious piece of paper, or teach them to recite a creed, and then move on; He said, "Come and follow Me," and demonstrated through His own life the reality He called them toward. This is a Good Shepherd, who takes care of His sheep.

Quote:
I think people have a right to [b]see the reality of Christ in a flesh and blood person[/b] – those who care about them, are genuinely interested in their lives, and above all model the beauty of Christ. In [b]our emphasis on “mass” evangelism[/b], we still need to retain the value of loving people into the kingdom: one at a time.

But, hey, don't throw out those tracts! There's a lot of good seed there.



Diane, on one hand you are saying that we must "love people into the kingdom," on the other that he should "not throw away those tracts." What happens when our words and actions contradict that love you are talking about? We can't "throw Scriptures" at people and expect them to turn to the living God. I didn't come to know Christ through someone slinging Bible verse at me. Because the act of throwing--or dumping--Scriptures at them violates our message! The Word of God is precious and awesome and holy, and we cannot use it lightly. We cannot dump it like a trashbag in front of people and hope they cling to it like a pearl of great price. On the other hand, adopting such a strategy shows our lack of spiritual discernment of where people are and our inadequate view of God. We have read somewhere that God's Word doesn't return void: but did [i]God[/i] really speak it, or did [i]we[/i] decide it was worth quoting to save the day? In the end we should not be surprised that people respond to and accept a [i]lukewarm[/i] and [i]intellectual[/i] brand of Christianity, having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof.

Slavyan

 2008/5/13 9:49
theopenlife
Member



Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 926


 Re:

NotMe said,

Quote:
There is something manipulative and dishonest about using a gospel tract, even this gospel tract.



I must strongly disagree with your impression. I am painfully aware that a gospel tract cannot replace lengthy discussions about the sin and the Savior, or three years of modeling Christ before men, but tracts are useful in situations where no conversation was even possible.

Brief meetings on the street, two minutes with a stranger on a bus; standing outside of sporting events, or in the park - tracts can talk to 500 people in the time you may only have spoken with three or four.

You may say, "the disciples never used them." Well, you're right. Neither did the disciples have printing presses, nor a highly literate society.

I frequently begin conversations with strangers and when time seems to be running out, I'll give them a tract "for the road", something they can look over again. It is the scriptures thereon which are frequently used of God to save others.

Consider that Hudson Taylor, famed missionary to China, was born again while reading a small gospel tract. I remember being twelve years old and my dad found a tract in a phone booth. Inside was printed an address for a church. We drove for an hour to find it because my dad wanted so badly to speak with someone about what he had read.

Spurgeon never missed an opportunity to preach the gospel, but that didn't prevent him from using tracts as well. I agree with what Spurgeon said:

"Let each one of us, if we have done nothing for Christ, begin to do something now. The distribution of tracts is the first thing. I well remember distributing them in a town in England where tracts had never been distributed before, and going from house to house, and telling in humble language the things of the kingdom of God. I might have done nothing, if I had not been encouraged by finding myself able to do something ... [Tracts are] adapted to those persons who have but little power and little ability, but nevertheless, wish to do something for Christ. They have not the tongue of the eloquent, but they may have the hand of the diligent. They cannot stand and preach, but they can stand and distribute here and there these silent preachers ... They may buy their thousand tracts, and these they can distribute broadcast."


"I look upon the giving away of a religious tract as only the first step for action not to be compared with many another deed done for Christ; but were it not for the first step we might never reach to the second, but that first attained, we are encouraged to take another, and so at the last ... There is a real service of Christ in the distribution of the gospel in its printed form, a service the result of which heaven alone shall disclose, and the judgment day alone discover. How many thousands have been carried to heaven instrumentally upon the wings of these tracts, none can tell ..."

 2008/5/13 19:43Profile
theopenlife
Member



Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 926


 Re:

NotMe, one other thing. You said,

Quote:
Salvation is not a "past experience", but something we should "earn with fear and trembling", enduring until the end.



I am taken back that you would apply the word "earn" to the word "salvation", for any reason.

Read the rest of what it says in Philippians: "Work out your salvation with fear and trembling... Knowing that [b]it is God who works in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure[/b]."

The sense in which we must fear and tremble is one of reverence for His sovereignty. It is Him who renews our hearts to willingness. It is God who preserves us in perseverance. We obey, but only by His grace and always by His grace.

"I will make an [b]everlasting covenant[/b] with them, that [b]I will not turn away from them, to do them good[/b]; but [b]I will put my fear in their hearts[/b], that [b]they shall not depart[/b] from me." - Jeremiah 32:40

 2008/5/13 19:54Profile
roadsign
Member



Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3777


 Re:

Quote:
We can't "throw Scriptures" at people and expect them to turn to the living God.



That’s right! But then some thow seeds, some plough, some harrow, some plant and some water, and some fertilize and some weed….

Some “throw” tracts, some write posts on forums, some make friends on the job, some sing, some write, some exemplify Christlikeness on the job, in the market place, some preach, some show love through godly parenting….

“Neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God who makes things grow. ...” 1 Cor. 3:7

No one person has the full job. PTL.

Still, I share your burden, NotMe, regarding our need to become like Jesus in all that we do, and above all - surrender ourselves, our ambitions, our desires to him. Our Lord is able to do far more than we could ever imagine – if only we would let him have the reigns.

It’s amazing how the kingdom of God has progressed down the centuries, in spite of even outlandish human fallibility. If the gates of hell cannot destroy the church, then surely neither will a few scripture tracts!!!!


Sidenote: NotMe, this conversation seems to be headed ever so close to a previous one - one which we mutually ceased. Are we “going around the mountain again?
... not that I mind doing so... it happens a lot in my life, and I know God has his purpose: mostly for refining :-o )

Diane



_________________
Diane

 2008/5/13 22:03Profile









 Re:

Some even do great and marvelous works in the Lord's name, but to them He will say on the last day, "Depart from me, you workers of iniquity, I never knew you."

Quote:
Still, I share your burden, NotMe, regarding our need to become like Jesus in all that we do, and above all - surrender ourselves, our ambitions, our desires to him. Our Lord is able to do far more than we could ever imagine – [b]if only we would let him have the reigns[/b].



If? You mean we haven't already? We're talking like we have, so we must've done it already! Or are you saying that we cannot attain to our own surrender, that is somehow always evading us, at least this side of heaven?

Quote:
It’s amazing how the kingdom of God has progressed down the centuries, in spite of even outlandish human fallibility. [b]If the gates of hell cannot destroy the church, then surely neither will a few scripture tracts[/b]!!!!



A backslidden church will surely not be destroyed by employing a few Scripture tracts to "further the work of the kingdom." A sex scandal may not destroy it either; even a gunsman killing a few people off the front pews may not disrupt the status quo. Because such fruit as these disqualify her as the true Church of Jesus Christ. If she doesn't hear what the Spirit says and repents, she will surely be overtaken by the gates of Hades:

Rev 2:4 But I have this against thee, that thou didst leave thy first love.
Rev 2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I come to thee, and [b]will move thy candlestick out of its place, except thou repent[/b].

P.S. As for the word "earn" I have used, please forgive my poor English. I thought this was the exact quote from the verse. It must be read as "work out." It was easy to detect, wasn't it?

 2008/5/13 22:32









 Re:

To get back on the tract, Michael. It seems you had decided in your heart to use it, no matter what anyone would say to you. Why bother ask then? Sure you did get some cheers from the crowd over here...

(This should conclude the contest.)

P.S. To quote brother Reidhead from [i]Ten Shekels[/i], "Go ahead and fill it (the gas tank) up, buddy!"

 2008/5/13 22:50
Compton
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 2732


 Re:

Notme,

Quote:
We can't "throw Scriptures" at people and expect them to turn to the living God.



Your characterization of Michael's effort here is cynical. It is also uninformed. I've never known Michael or Diane to "throw" scriptures at anyone, and certainly they do not engage in 'contests' here on the forum. They are both serious and humble about the relationships they have with people here. I anticipate they are just as serious with people they share Christ with.

I suppose when it gets right down to it, none of us are beyond criticism, in our methods or our motives. A young Christian can barely attempt to learn how share the gospel, without someone dissecting his efforts. Some reject street preaching, others don't respect life style evangelism, and now we find that still others have contempt for tracts.

It may be that the apostsy, worldiness, and poor doctrine we see in the church causes us to become skeptical and to dispair of each another... which would be quite tragic for our own hearts. In the interest of not allowing ourselves to become sour with own dissapointments, we should look where we can honestly commend one another, without flattery but with hope.

We are right to shun humanistic flattery just to make each other feel good, but there's no spiritual life in simply being stingy with encouragement.

MC


_________________
Mike Compton

 2008/5/13 23:32Profile
theopenlife
Member



Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 926


 Re:

Regarding your English, NotMe, I think you are quite skilled for one who is not a native speaker. I am grateful to you and others who have been disciplined to become multilingual. I confess that I have neglected learning a second language, which could certainly be used of the Lord.

However, I must reply with difference to this statement of yours,

Quote:
It seems you had decided in your heart to use it, no matter what anyone would say to you. Why bother ask then? Sure you did get some cheers from the crowd over here...



I apologize for the misunderstanding. I did not come here with questions about whether or not to use tracts. I had already determined to do use a tract of some sort.

What was to be determined was the content of the tract. My posting was not to seek approval of the means, but to ask for commendation or correction of the message. In fact, the responses to this thread resulted in the tract being revised a number of times.

There is no need for me to prove before men the sincerity of my desire for persons to be brought into Christ's kingdom through any means, including the apparent foolishness of a little card with scriptures on it.

Whether we use our voices, our conduct, our work ethic; our blogs and websites, music, artwork, or even our little paper confessions of Christ's grace to sinners, we do all to the glory of God.

Every action we perform is in some sense a preparatory to the regeneration wrought by the Spirit through the means of the gospel of Christ.

Finally, to attack the use of small tracts as a means of communicating the gospel is to undermine the effectiveness of single books of the bible. How much scripture must one have to receive regeneration? If a prisoner has only the gospel of John, is he without hope? What if he has only seven chapters, or seven verses? Is not God's word, mighty through the Spirit to convict and reveal, capable in smaller forms, provided it is true and clear?

What if the tract had only Romans 3:19-26?
-----

"Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to them who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may be proven guilty before God. Therefore by obedience to the law no person shall be justified in his sight: for through the law comes the knowledge of sin.

But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed - of which the law and the prophets bore witness - even the righteousness of God which is through faith in Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God has set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believes in Jesus.

----

Please consider that the epistles were long tracts. One may argue that the apostles were inspired to do so, and we are not, but I remind that Paul wrote epistles which were not inspired, such as the one to Laodiceans mentioned in the book of Philippians.

 2008/5/14 0:12Profile









 Re:

Quote:
Michael wrote:
I apologize for the misunderstanding. I did not come here with questions about whether or not to use tracts. I had already determined to do use a tract of some sort.

What was to be determined was the content of the tract. My posting was not to seek approval of the means, but to ask for commendation or correction of the message. In fact, the responses to this thread resulted in the tract being revised a number of times.



I understand your point. You spoke correctly about your intention. However, you do not see that the method of delivering the message is [i]invariably linked to[/i] the content. For using means other than God's to further the impact of the Gospel, ipso facto alters that same Gospel. Or you think that somehow God is incapable of saving to the uttermost, so that we must help Him out with effective mass-evangelism methods, so He can save more people as a result. It is true that more people may hear the message in the tract and accept it, and perhaps start attending a local church, and tithing, and praying, even sharing the same message to others, and still those people may not know the Lord. For a message without the confirmation of the Spirit of God leads people into trusting another spirit and another Jesus. Satan is an angel of light, and he knows that apart from our need to be delivered from the power of the flesh, we all need to be free from the deceptions of evil spirits and doctrines of devils--which are a much greater threat to the Christian than the allurements of this world.

But we have a misguided definition of Christianity, and therefore a wrong understanding of what it means to be a Christian. A confession of faith or of being "born-again" is not enough; nor is regular church attendance. It is God alone who bears witness whether we are children of God (Romans 8:16). Others may say, "You got it. That is right. You are on the way to salvation." But we need to hear the voice of the Lord, not the words of man's approval and confirmation, for we know not what is in man, that he can't be trusted:

Joh 5:31 "If I bear witness of Myself, My witness is not true.
Joh 5:32 [i]There is another who bears witness of Me, and I know that the witness which He witnesses of Me is true.[/i]
Joh 5:33 You have sent to John, and he has borne witness to the truth.
Joh 5:34 Yet [i]I do not receive testimony from man[/i], but I say these things that you may be saved.

Diane mentioned earlier about the litmus test of whether someone is in the faith. And this test is not in the fact that they say they once accepted Christ. It is not in their persevering in a creed or a doctrine. The Eastern Orthodox Church, for example, claims exclusive right to election because their doctrines have not changed since the time of the Church Fathers, and they cling to them. However, they have never known God, they have never been born of the Spirit--and even if God spoke to them at one time and they heard and were changed in an instant--later, by the hardening of their hearts they became innoculated to the voice of the Spirit and fell away from the faith. So what they have now is a dead tradition. Just like Israel in the wilderness, who didn't want God to speak to them any more, for they were terrified of the voice of the Lord, but preferred that Moses spoke to them, so the people of this generation are content to hear the voice of men, even of men of God, and go this far, but they cannot bear listening to the voice of the Almighty.

And this is true test of our faith, and the meaning of this conversation: if we do not (I would add, "consistenly") hear the voice of God, then we are none of His. For there is no man, who blasphemes the Holy Spirit--who willingly rejects the voice of the Spirit of God--who knows Him. If you guys, do not recognize the voice of the Lord in what I am saying, this is a dreadful sentence for you--for the words I am speaking are not my own. I have neither premeditated what I was going to write about; and most of the things I am writing about I've never understood this clearly, were it not for the Spirit revealing them to me right now. Dreadful I said not because of what say or think, but because of the Word of the Lord, which stands unchanged forever:

Joh 10:24 Then the Jews surrounded Him and said to Him, "How long do You keep us in doubt? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly."
Joh 10:25 Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father's name, they bear witness of Me.
Joh 10:26 [i]But you do not believe, because [u]you are not of My sheep[/u][/i], as I said to you.
Joh 10:27 [i]My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me[/i].
Joh 10:28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.
Joh 10:29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand.
Joh 10:30 I and My Father are one."
Joh 10:31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him.
Joh 10:32 Jesus answered them, "Many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me?"
Joh 10:33 The Jews answered Him, saying, "[i]For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and [u]because You, being a Man, make Yourself God[/u][/i]."

Here are the religious people of their time, who did not hear the voice of the Spirit in Christ, and He said they were [u]not of His sheep[/u]. To them the Lord spoke in another place:

Mat 23:27 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs which indeed appear beautiful outwardly, but inside are full of dead men's bones and all uncleanness.
Mat 23:28 Even so you also outwardly appear righteous to men, but inside you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness.
Mat 23:29 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! Because you build the tombs of the prophets and adorn the monuments of the righteous,
Mat 23:30 and say, 'If we had lived in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.'
Mat 23:31 Therefore you are witnesses against yourselves that [i]you are sons of those who murdered the prophets[/i].
Mat 23:32 Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers' guilt.
Mat 23:33 [i]Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell?[/i]

It is not the acceptance of a dead orthodox doctrine that reveals the nature of a man--whether He knows God or not--but [b]hearing the voice of the Lord in a time when He speaks to him[/b]. That "still, small voice." In the first chapters of the Book of Revelation one verse is repeated over and over again in hope that the church people would hear and turn from their sinful ways: "[i]He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches[/i]" (Rev. 2:11, 2:17, 2:29, and so on). And there are many other verses of Scripture in accord with that, of which I will list a few:

Isa 6:9 And He said, "Go, and tell this people: 'Keep on hearing, but do not understand; Keep on seeing, but do not perceive.'
Isa 6:10 "Make the heart of this people dull, And their ears heavy, And shut their eyes; Lest they see with their eyes, And hear with their ears, And understand with their heart, And return and be healed."

Heb 3:7 Therefore, [u]as the Holy Spirit says[/u]: "[i]Today, if you will hear His voice,
Heb 3:8 Do not harden your hearts[/i] as in the rebellion, In the day of trial in the wilderness,
Heb 3:9 Where your fathers tested Me, tried Me, And saw My works forty years.
Heb 3:10 Therefore I was angry with that generation, And said, '[i]They always go astray in their heart, And they have not known My ways[/i].'
Heb 3:11 So I swore in My wrath, '[u]They shall not enter My rest[/u].'"

The issue, Michael, is [b]not at all[/b] about the exact content of your gospel tract. If is not about whether you walk, or run, or trot, or jump, or creep on the road, so long as it is a road whose end is the way of death (Prov. 14:12, 16:25); a road which leads you away from the Lord. And if in your determination to preach Christ no matter what, you have hardened your heart and "are without chastening", your state is [i]much more important[/i] than the content of the tract. Paul rejoiced that some preached the Gospel out of contention or misunderstanding--and I cannot lament the fact that the Gospel is preached--but what about the souls of those who preach it in such a way? For I am not raising alarm against the inclusion of a verse or two, or about the inexact phrasing of a sentence; I am crying out against [i]the spirit of that thing[/i]. Which is the same spirit that fed those people, who would one day--a day which they have long expected--stand before the judgment throne of God, and start telling Him about their passionate works for His kingdom, and the signs and wonders they had done in His name (all things those people did while they were on earth, thinking they were doing God a favor), but He will turn and say to them: "Depart from Me..." And it is indeed a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Walking in the Spirit is the reality we must operate under. If we do not know the Spirit of Christ, who ALONE can take from Him and make known to us the truth--even if we knew Him at one time, and grew in grace, and the knowledge of God, but then became complacent and self-absorbed, thinking we somehow "got it" and need not be taught any more--then, the Apostle says, we are not His:

Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.
Rom 8:8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
Rom 8:9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. [b]Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His[/b].

I tremble at the saying of those words. I tremble that the Lord may take away the candlestick and leave the house of God desolate. I hope I am in the wrong, that I have somehow missed the Spirit's mind and prompting, that I have obeyed a different spirit so [i]I[/i] may be damned and [i]you all[/i] might be saved, but I fear this is not the case. May the Lord have mercy on us all!

 2008/5/14 7:38









 Re:

Quote:
Please consider that the epistles were long tracts. One may argue that the apostles were inspired to do so, and we are not, but I remind that Paul wrote epistles which were not inspired, such as the one to Laodiceans mentioned in the book of Philippians



Paul's epistles were not written to a [i]random[/i] audience which would [i]randomly[/i] run into them in the street and [i]randomly[/i] be changed. He knew that there is [i]nothing random[/i] in a commandment of God. He knew that God's word always fulfills its intended purpose. He didn't write those epistles hoping that somehow God would use them as seemed best to Him: that someone, somewhere, somehow would read them and repent. Paul wasn't thinking about the effect on others at all. He did what the Lord commanded him.

I don't know if you have ever sown seeds in the ground. I can tell you from experience that the condition of the ground you sow them in is crucial to whether anything will sprout and bear fruit afterwards. If you throw a bunch of tomato seeds in a patch of thistles, don't expect a good harvest. If a farmer throws his seeds on the asphalt roads, or on rocky places, thinking he would get a good harvest, he is a foolish farmer. But the farmer who works the soil and makes sure it is good, not aggravated or poisoned, clean of weeds and rocks, not on a path or a walkway, and then sows them carefully, comes later to water and weed and fertilize--he can hope for a good return. And if this is important for natural and temporal things, how much more is it important for matters of eternal consequence!

You throw the seed of the word of the Lord on sidewalks, among thorns and in stony places and you are hoping that those seeds will bear GOOD fruit? Are you a good steward of that Word? Man, if I had a hundred tomato seeds (in total) to sow and I threw thirty of them in the bushes, and another thirty on sidewalks, and thirty among the chickens in my grandma's back yard, would it come as a suprise to me that I pick no tomatoes at the time of harvest? No, I won't get anything at all. But if I am a little smart, even after I have thrown the ninety seeds in bad places, and work on the good ground, which won't be as easy, and sow the remaining ten of them there, my hope will not be vain.

 2008/5/14 8:00





©2002-2024 SermonIndex.net
Promoting Revival to this Generation.
Privacy Policy