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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Bill Johnson Discernment

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AbideinHim
Member



Joined: 2006/11/26
Posts: 3442
Louisiana

 Re:

It is wrong for those ministries that pursue signs and wonders and not the development of godly character. It is just as wrong for other ministries to say that signs and wonders have passed away. That God no longer heals today, and the gifts of the Spirit are obsolete.

We seem to get on this discussion everytime a ministry is mentioned that believes that signs and wonders are for today.

I am tired of seeing Christians dying young of sickness and disease because there is no power in the church for them to be healed. We can say that it is God's will that cancer would ravish their bodies, but God is not the author of cancer. The same ones that say that God does not heal today will go to the doctors and take chemotherapy which not only destroys the cancer cells but the immune system itself.

We need the power of God in our lives not only to make us holy but to heal our bodies as well.

My prayer is that the gifts of the Spirit would be restored to the Church. If we put more emphasis on the gifts than on the fruit of the Spirit then there will be an imbalance and there will be problems.

We need more men like Smith Wigglesworth and John G. Lake that walked in purity, holiness, and had the power of God demonstrated in healing, deliverance, signs and wonders that confirmed the Word that they preached.

Mike


_________________
Mike

 2008/12/27 22:04Profile









 Re:

People were saying the same thing about Todd Bentley in terms of 'fruit'. They defined fruit in certain terms yet discounted the false teachings of Bentley. Bill Johnson sanctioned Bentley and Fresh Fire Ministries. He also was quick to embrace Bentley after the revelation of his inproprieties. He defined 'the religious spirit' as being fueled by rebuking Bentley. I disagree, it is the religious spirit that went to Lakeland Fl to see 'signs and wonders'. I'm all for healing and the glorifying of God but this is a byproduct of relationship with Christ, not the cause. I fail to see the relationship in chasing healings, unbiblical drunken laughter, or a hundred fold return for a financial 'seed'. Jesus told us not to go if someone says 'look He's in the desert' (a far off place like Lakeland) or in the 'inner chanbers' (secret clubs like freemasons). If the head of a ministry sanctions an event like Lakeland and does not warn their sheep about such an event in careful discernment of unbiblical activity, then there's a big problem with their leadership. I've seen the ministries and people Bill Johnson has listed on his website and I have great concern in his ability to discern true movements and ministries as Spirit Driven. 'Movements' will come and go but relationship in the confines of the prayer closet, the personal regeneration of heart, the careful musings of scripture, and the simplicity of Christ, is a foundation that needs no sign or wonder. I believe that the weak in faith will look for the outside wonders before inward relationship and transformation that leaves one content in The Lord.

Healing is at the discretion of a Sovereign God, it can't be manipulated or methodically induced. Some sicknesses and hard circumstances drive people to God. There are many Godly people (including Wigglesworth) who suffered physically and had little to no money. That's not an excuse for discounting the power of God, but a reality that even the Apostle Paul realized personally.

 2008/12/27 23:54
boG
Member



Joined: 2008/5/21
Posts: 349
Las Vegas, NV

 Re: Bill Johnson Discernment

Amen, brother Cccrider.

Quote:
Satan's signs and wonders? Sorry, I just can't let that one slide. It's perfectly fine if you don't agree with every doctrine that someone has, but to put them in league with the devil because of it is not only an awful thing to do, you risk calling works of the Holy Spirit the works of the devil. I promise you, satan isn't healing sickness, disease, and chronic pain in the name of Jesus.


There is a video online called "Signs and Wonders Movement Exposed" ([url=http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5411907440673613510]Part 1 here[/url] and [url=http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=684564137529404621&hl=en]Part 2 here[/url]) which has documentation of several of the famous "revivals" and "healing" ministries of our time. Another special note of interest, the "prophets" who were companions of Todd Bentley in the Lakeland Outpouring are some of the same false prophets from the Toronto Blessing. And we are to trust men and women who regard with reverence the "manifestations" and characters that personified these ministries?

"In his book, [i]Counterfeit Revival[/i], Hank Hanegraaff makes the case that the revival has done more damage than good. His view is that Toronto was a matter of people being worked into altered states of consciousness where they obscure reality and enshrine absurdity." (wikipedia.org)

If you watch these videos, I ask you to give special attention to the testimonies of the "healed". And you shall witness at the very end of Part 2 (at the 56:00 minute) there is a review of some of the "healed" and how they died of the very sicknesses and diseases that these "ministers" healed them from. All of these people who later died testified of being healed, without pain, and even feats they had not previously been able to perform, etc.

Quote:
I am tired of seeing Christians dying young of sickness and disease because there is no power in the church for them to be healed. We can say that it is God's will that cancer would ravish their bodies, but God is not the author of cancer. The same ones that say that God does not heal today will go to the doctors and take chemotherapy which not only destroys the cancer cells but the immune system itself.

We need the power of God in our lives not only to make us holy but to heal our bodies as well.

My prayer is that the gifts of the Spirit would be restored to the Church. If we put more emphasis on the gifts than on the fruit of the Spirit then there will be an imbalance and there will be problems.

We need more men like Smith Wigglesworth and John G. Lake that walked in purity, holiness, and had the power of God demonstrated in healing, deliverance, signs and wonders that confirmed the Word that they preached.


Indeed this is true, brother, we ought to be tired of seeing the torches of Christ put out so soon by the curse and frailty of mortality. However, if I may make one correction: we do not "need" to have our bodies healed.

Quote:
Healing is at the discretion of a Sovereign God, it can't be manipulated or methodically induced. Some sicknesses and hard circumstances drive people to God. There are many Godly people (including Wigglesworth) who suffered physically and had little to no money. That's not an excuse for discounting the power of God, but a reality that even the Apostle Paul realized personally.


I agree with Wigglesworth when he rebukes those who claim that the original sin which has brought death & decay into the world is sent by God to teach us. However, it is true that God works out all things to the good of those who love him and are called according to his purposes -- as with Joseph: what his brothers intended for his harm the Lord turned for his and their good. In regards to physical health it is a wonderful mercy of God, when he remembers that we are but men and strengthens our mortal frames. However, I do not pray for healing as others do. Rather I pray this way: my life is in his providential and sovereign hands, I shall not die but that the Lord has declared it and I suffer in my spirit waiting for that day of deliverance and jubilee. And for this reason, when it comes to the health of my body, as I am able I am a steward of this body so that I might serve the Lord diligently with this body and request of him (as with that godly man David Brainerd) "that we might not outlive our usefulness" for Christ's sake. I do not desire to be healed in my body for I long to die and be liberated from sin and present with my God and Father. Therefore, if I am to live and be healed then it is for the sake of the ministry that Christ may be glorified in my body. Merely having a righteous hatred for the works of satan and the destruction of sin upon our bodies is not going to sanctify a pious man's prayer but it certainly is a motivation, yet even this must be solely provoked by the evangelical love of Christ for the salvation of souls. The Holy Spirit is not concerned with perishing bodies, only perishing souls.


_________________
Jordan

 2008/12/28 0:54Profile
Joshh
Member



Joined: 2008/8/26
Posts: 62


 Re:

Quote:
There is a video online called "Signs and Wonders Movement Exposed" (Part 1 here and Part 2 here) which has documentation of several of the famous "revivals" and "healing" ministries of our time.

If you watch these videos, I ask you to give special attention to the testimonies of the "healed". And you shall witness at the very end of Part 2 (at the 56:00 minute) there is a review of some of the "healed" and how they died of the very sicknesses and diseases that these "ministers" healed them from. All of these people who later died testified of being healed, without pain, and even feats they had not previously been able to perform, etc.

Well, I couldn't watch all of the videos since my internet connection is messed up, but I was able to watch the last 10 minutes of the second video. They didn't show the testimonies themselves, just people that had died. Most of the time I've seen these people are brought on stage it is for something like cancer or high blood pressure, something that can't be verified at the time. At the same time, I went to Johnson's website earlier tonight and looked at some of the testimonies there, and saw healed of chronic pain for months, not for a few minutes. Again, satan isn't healing in the name of Jesus.

 2008/12/28 1:17Profile









 Brother Jordan

I'm not sure if this is the young brother Jordan I met a few years back, it doesn't matter, because I want to start my reply to you with this; whatever I write to you after this sentence, please..please...do not take personally, or misconstrue it as an insult, but when I read your first sentence

Quote:
I am sorry brother Natan, but I am going to have to correct you on that sentiment.



When I read stuff like that, I just want to lay down on the ground and moan, maybe rend a few pieces of clothing, maybe plead with Jesus, and ask you, why can't you be real with me? why can't you talk authentically with me? Why is it, when a saved sinner claims Jesus as Messiah, they adopt a verbiage that is so totally out of pace with the way real everyday people speak, or in this case, write. That they adopt a churchie version of politically correct passive-agressive rhetoric, why dont you just say, "I disagree with you"?....."here's why>>>"

no wonder kids today are running away from atypical "evangelical" churches...its because even the most sin soaked hurting young person can pick up on the phony hypocritical little white bread church subculture that passes itself off as the "evangelical" church.,......the kids arent stupid, they might be lost and adrift in this ocean of filth that is the world of the 21st Century, but they aren't stupid, they can spot INAUTHENTIC, in a second.

I'm not calling you that, but c'mon! get real. While you're busy "correcting" me, and cutting and pasting out of context Scripture to fling at me, or should I say, "correct" me with , let me ask you a question: If say five years ago, I told you that Ted Haggard, head of the National Association of Evangelicals was a homosexual whore-mongering hellbound meth head, what would you say to me in return?

Think about that.

How many young people did Ted Haggard lay hands on, and prayed over them, In Jesus' Name?

He certainly figured prominently in that secular documentary "Jesus Camp", it was so sad, here you had these dear earnest adolescents..male...talking with Haggard, looking up at this phony baloney "pastor" with such awe and admiration, and it was GOD ALMIGHTY Himself who unmasked Haggard, but at what price? Did it stumble these young saints? are they now so disillusioned with the foul and rank smell of hypocrisy that they now have fled from the "church"...or God forbid fled from the Loving Arms of Jesus?..because we have ranks and ranks of self righteous fleshlings passing themselves off as pastors, elders, teachers, etc etc etc? all saying the right "stuff", all using the "correct" words..all dressing in nice suits and ties, all smelling like death.

Thread after thread, post after post on this forum, screaming about Todd Bentley, and did any of it accomplish anything?

NOTHING!

Just a bunch of wasted time, because in the end it was GOD who unmasked him, it was God Almighty who cratered Todd Bentley's little kiddy game posing as "ministry".(and woe to those here who felt a smug secret sense of glee at Bentley going down, because YOU'RE NEXT, God knows who you are. So fear God and repent.)

So, signs and wonders ministry's, discernemnt ministry's, that doctrine, this doctrine, Finneyism,Calvinism, Arminism, all of it's just filthy rag religiosity.

There are only TWO Things that matter in the Economy of God, Jesus and His Word, His Logos, the Bible, embrace those Two, cling to Faith, be real and know nothing but Jesus Christ and Him crucified.

Thats where I stand rooted, Praise a loving and merciful God.

 2008/12/28 1:23
whizzpopping
Member



Joined: 2008/12/27
Posts: 6


 Re: Brother Jordan

Quote:
On the contrary, this would not be advisable. There is a tremendous amount of issues and items along with those they associate with. I do appreciate the emphasis to go to source material - Check the links, read the articles if you must, but this is not something SermonIndex would recommend nor endorse.



Interesting. Despite what I had just requested, to look at the fruit, you tell me that the ministry at Bethel is controversial.

I seriously don't care if there are tremendous issues with the people they associate. There are tremendous issues with EVERYONE Jesus associated with. Just because I am hanging out with prostitutes, or my best friend is a hypocritical white-washed pharisee, does that make my ministry to the sick and poor completely false?

By saying, "look at the fruit" I mean that you need to look at the fruit. As a result of every healing and deliverance, I believe the words that come out of the congregations' mouth is "praise the Lord", and as a result of every salvation, I am hesitant to believe that people think, "yes, I'm the bomb, I got saved, Satan rocks".

Obviously this is a stretch, but the idea is there. People are being healed, people are saved.

boG said "Bill Johnson's ministry personally however I recognize him by association with many other false prophets and false teachers"

Again, boG, regarding your personal ministry, I recognize you by association with many unbelievers, childhood friends that have gone awry, and people at your own church who don't believe what you believe. Do you realize how wrong that is?

Natan4Jesus - "in the end it was GOD who unmasked him"

If Bill does not have the character to steward what God has given him, then let the ministry fall in the next few years.
---

When Peter was full of doubt, weak, and unsure. Jesus called him a rock. When Jesus knew that Judas was a thief, and conniving, he still let Judas steward their money. Never did Jesus call Peter faithless, witless, or weak, but he called him a rock, on which the church shall be built.

Here, we have what you call "false teachers" and "false prophets".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=opnCOj58PMw

For God's sake, His sake, this man who you call a false teacher confesses his hunger for Christ and the manifest presence of the Lord, this man, is our brother, yet you bash, slander, accuse, and you speak death concerning him. We should be offering our help, speaking the life, the promises of God, offering our prayers, declaring the healing of his heart and the restoration of his ministry. We should be like JESUS like we all claim to follow. We should be calling out the gold in everyone, just as Jesus prophesied who Peter was to be, we should be doing the same with our brothers and sisters in Christ.


Do you know why he failed? Yes, he's human, but on part, the reason he failed was because of us. Because many were busy flailing accusations, they were not praying for our brothers, they were not praying for those who were in the frontlines of battle.

The reason why crooks counterfeit $20 bills up, is because it is not worth the time to counterfeit $1 bills. The reason why you see 'false prophets' is because the devil knows how valuable the real thing is. It's not worth it for him to bring division concerning petty things like the shortest verse in the bible. Get the point?

Lastly.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zV_Whu0kfTk

to crsschk, I have scoured all over the ibethel site, bought many books, bought sermons, bought their worship CDs, heck, didn't even use Amazon because i wanted to support their ministry. I've read almost every article they've written, and because of that, God has worked in my heart in amazing ways. The fruit of the spirit IS love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. A large part of my spiritual growth was aided by their ministry, I love to love my unbelieving friends without an agenda to make them believe what they don't want to believe, God has given me joy unspeakable as a child more than ever before, The supernatural peace of God is constantly on me...

I give no man credit, but I must thank those men who have been obedient to steward what God has given them.
---
King Solomon ended his life poorly. Does that mean we have to scrap out songs of solomon and all of proverbs? NO. He ministered out of God's anointing, and just because he walked away from it doesn't mean that God was wrong, or that King solomon was a 'false teacher', nor gives us the right to call him one, but in fact, declare the the blood of Christ covers ALL sin.

I do not discount the infallibility of the word of God.. BUT.. Why do so many Christians value the Bible -- what the New Testament church DID NOT have -- so much, but rarely talk about or commune with the Holy Spirit -- whom the New Testament church always ministered through -- who is, need I remind you, our Comforter and Helper, and the Spirit of God?

I found a sermon on THIS site from Aimee Semple McPherson. Radical. Even Wigglesworth has teaching on this site, RADICAL.

Quote:
It is wrong for those ministries that pursue signs and wonders and not the development of godly character. It is just as wrong for other ministries to say that signs and wonders have passed away. That God no longer heals today, and the gifts of the Spirit are obsolete.

i completely agree with this

Quote:
everytime I see the word: "discernment", I automatically see the word, "pharisee" right behind it.

-- hey man, I understand where you are coming from, but some are genuinely trying to discern.

Quote:
I'm all for healing and the glorifying of God but this is a byproduct of relationship with Christ, not the cause. I fail to see the relationship in chasing healings, unbiblical drunken laughter, or a hundred fold return for a financial 'seed'.


I agree, but to discredit(this might be bad choice of words) healings, and the manifestation when GOD (creator of all, all powerful One) invades someone's life, is also failing to see what this relationship can lead to.

Paul told us to COVET prophecy, he greatly desired for the church to pursue spiritual gifts, and yes, many times, this leads to people pursuing the gifts rather than the Giver. But this doesn't mean we should call something 'false' just because someone has a gift that God has given them, but we don't have because we didn't ask, or because we didn't know was available.

http://www.ibethel.tv/watch/173:1:0

When's the last time God broke your box?
Theology is what God believes in.
The reason it is called a sign, is because it points to something greater.
Some signs cause us to wonder, but that sign still points to something.

 2008/12/28 3:22Profile









 Re: Bill Johnson Discernment




RUN.

 2008/12/28 6:43
boG
Member



Joined: 2008/5/21
Posts: 349
Las Vegas, NV

 Re: Bill Johnson Discernment

Interesting responses.

To Natan, I only have one manner of speaking, it is my own. In regards to why I politely told you that you are wrong is because it was a first rebuke. If you had been stubbornly wrong over and over and ignoring the truth, I would gradually come to address you more and more as a servant of lawlessness -- and then you would certainly find my manner blunt.

As to whizzpopping, you are mistaken sir.

Quote:
boG said "Bill Johnson's ministry personally however I recognize him by association with many other false prophets and false teachers"

Again, boG, regarding your personal ministry, I recognize you by association with many unbelievers, childhood friends that have gone awry, and people at your own church who don't believe what you believe. Do you realize how wrong that is?


I realize that was the same condemnation that was made against a certain man, Jesus of Nazareth: "he is a friend of sinners."
The difference, I do not minister the Gospel with or support the ministry of unbelievers and people who have gone awry. I do not send my brothers and sisters in Christ to be fed defiled milk from an impure vessel.
And I have no difficulties with those who don't believe everything I believe in the exact manner I do. Yet there are none-the-less demonic doctrines and false fires and spiritual demonstrations of the anti-christ spirit that give all the appearances of holiness.

Just like the video you posted of Bentley and the crowd praying. What is this supposed to be? Proof of legitimacy? My friend, I have stood before people "slain in the spirit", I have watched with my own eyes such "manifestations of the spirit", etc. and the problem with all of it, as far as it concerns me, I can only look upon these things with my eyes. I cannot look with my eyes and discern what is born of heaven. Do I see emotions, or carnality, or hypnotism, or irrationality, or mind-altering influences, or is there something of innocent faith? Perhaps, there are some in that crowd who are being baptized with the Spirit of Truth, and this I can say because I know God is at work even in the midst of the lion's den and the fiery furnace. The just shall walk by faith and not by sight. You are asking to look upon these manifestations with the sight and judge whether they be of God or not. All we may do is look to the character of the man to see where the fruits of the Spirit are manifest ([b]Galatians 5[/b]). I look to Bentley and what do I see? A man ordained by the apostle Paul (speaking with and counselling with the dead: necromancy); a man who is frequently visited and instructed by a female angel named "Emma", where there is any number of things to say; the healings evinced are given credit to "healing angels" -- but they are "sent by God"; angels of finance; angels of . . . fill in the blank. [b]Colossians 2:18[/b], "Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind." Have you ever heard or watched Bentley speak of his ordination and his peculiar demonic manifestations (as a christian) mimicking a serpent and leaping upon and overpowering several men; wherefore he confesses to have been supposedly delivered from these spirits (ie. spirit of fear) in preparation for his new ministry? This is no man whom I will trust with my life.

Quote:
Do you know why he failed? Yes, he's human, but on part, the reason he failed was because of us. Because many were busy flailing accusations, they were not praying for our brothers, they were not praying for those who were in the frontlines of battle.


He failed because we failed him?
[b]2 Timothy 4
16.[/b] At my first answer no man stood with me, but all men forsook me: I pray God that it may not be laid to their charge.
[b]17.[/b] Notwithstanding the Lord stood with me, and strengthened me; that by me the preaching might be fully known, and that all the Gentiles might hear: and I was delivered out of the mouth of the lion.
[b]18. [/b] And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

So, why didn't the Lord deliver Bentley from every evil work? Because we lacked prayer? I don't recall that being a pre-requisite. Is not Christ himself interceding with fervent and effective prayers on behalf of the saints?

In regards to signs and wonders, when push comes to shove, here is where I make my stand. I watched the video of the woman giving testimony to her son being progressively healed of autism. This woman has never seen the throne of God nor him who sits upon the throne.
[b]Jeremiah 23:25-27[/b]
"I have heard what the prophets said, that prophesy lies in my name, saying, I have dreamed, I have dreamed. How long shall this be in the heart of the prophets that prophesy lies? yea, they are prophets of the deceit of their own heart; Which think to cause my people to forget my name by their dreams which they tell every man to his neighbour, as their fathers have forgotten my name for Baal."

Why do I say this? Because she speaks so commonly. And she speaks of the holy things of God no differently then all the others I have spoken to who are sold into this hyper-"prophetic" movement. When Paul bears witness of a man (who many believe to be Paul himself) who testified "How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter" and compare to this woman, who says, "and I've been in the throne room before; and I guess I've been a few times . . ." And shall we even compare this woman's plainness to when Isaiah and Peter beheld the glory of God?
How peculiar, God, God himself, spoke to this woman "2.5 delta" as the "healing frequency" for her child's autism. The same frequency used to put people into altered-states of consciousness. I guess that is what happens when you are opening yourself up to all manner of spiritual influences and certain spirits teach you to base your prayers in neuroscience (as the women said) to be strategically prayed months on end. Not quite the same as "be healed, in the name of Jesus" is it?

[b]Jeremiah 23:28-32[/b]
"The prophet that hath a dream, let him tell a dream; and he that hath my word, let him speak my word faithfully. What is the chaff to the wheat? saith the LORD. Is not my word like as a fire? saith the LORD; and like a hammer that breaketh the rock in pieces? Therefore, behold, I am against the prophets, saith the LORD, that steal my words every one from his neighbour. Behold, I am against the prophets, saith the LORD, that use their tongues, and say, He saith. Behold, I am against them that prophesy false dreams, saith the LORD, and do tell them, and cause my people to err by their lies, and by their lightness; yet I sent them not, nor commanded them: therefore they shall not profit this people at all, saith the LORD."

And one more closing remark,
[b]Matthew 7:22,23[/b]
"Many will say to Me on that day, `Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' And then I will declare to them, `I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.'"

Let us be aware, these who said, "Lord, Lord" were spiritually manifest with gifts (even casting out demons, which may bring physical healing, and miracles) and they were utterly surprised that their names were not written in the Lamb's Book of Life.


_________________
Jordan

 2008/12/29 20:34Profile
dohzman
Member



Joined: 2004/10/13
Posts: 2132


 Re: Guilty by association?

I have to confess that I have many people in my circle of influence that are church goers as well as some who are not. I associate with them and love them, I dine with them and in secret I deeply pain over them and thier lost condition. One might say that if I was to attain to a national platform that I was a false prophet based on much of what I see written above here. Just because I associate with these individuals. O'by the way, I have sledom lost focus on my objective to win them to Christ by my life, and yes I have failed at times and yes they have seen my humanis(?), and they know I can never condone thier actions and stances.
In the same way, you'll never know what exactly a good man like Bill Johnson has in his heart as he bears up these associations before a holy God in prayer.I think it's easy to cast stones at doctrine, and while I do not embrace the WOF movement, I sure am glad that the Lord cares for mine and my families well being in the area of money, health...etc...

I want to comment on something too>>>

Quote:
They really seem to believe God loves everyone, and hates no one.


Now I know this will not be popular so I'll quote AW Tozer, "I believe that it will be seen in time and eternity that it be the LOVE of God that places the lost in hell as much if not more than the justice of God". That comes from his attributes of God seris. I would venture to say that most people who are serious in the church have no idea what the love of God really is. I think wwe need to ask really tough questions and not rest till we have an answer, questions like , "what is God's motivation behind the whole of redemptions story and salvation, what's His motive"?
"Why does He require faith/obedience/holiness"?
"What is in it for Him"?
I think there is so much head knowledge and yet few understand Wisdoms way.
I don't know this man but if asked, from what I do know, I would judge him as a good man following Jesus as he has learned or recieved Jesus.


_________________
D.Miller

 2008/12/29 22:02Profile





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