| Re: demons??|
Demons are definitely real, but that doesn't mean to say their isn't confusion in the minds of Christians about when to call a problem demonic.
Demons love an empty soul that is not filled with Holy Spirit, or, a wounded soul\spirit\mind, or one which has been vacated by other spirits, but has not been given to God to heal and restore through His presence.
You will remember, that Jesus permitted the demons from Legion to go into pigs. They will also dwell in other animals.
Remembering this, there are some which have the characteristics of animals. Remember when Jesus called someone a '[i]fox[/i]'? There are also spirits whose nature is like a snake's. Thus, you have a crazy situation where there is part of a 'psychiatric' diagnosis known as 'grunts and oinks' - and of course, these people have no idea how to deliver the sufferer.
Can it really be possible, that the whole of Israel knew how to define the difference between an unclean spirit and a disease (such as leprosy), and today, we are spiritually unaware enough to have reached a mentality which excludes demons from the equation altogether?
Definitely, some spirits affect the physical body - such as that which Jesus cast out of a deaf-dumb person (Mark 9:25) - but we know that not all deafness is caused by a spirit. This is where discermnemt is essential. And that is a gift of the Holy Spirit, which God gives to some [i]with[/i] the gift of the Holy Spirit. (I do believe, though, that in the same way as use of the talents led to increase, God does give new gifts to those who were faithful with the original ones.)
Probably I've said enough here, but just in case you're wondering, I'm speaking from experience both of being troubled in the past by [i]many[/i] demons, and from God graciously delivering me from them, in answer to prayer, and obedience to righteousness. Demons hate righteousness.
One last thing about demons is that they are very limited. They have a very narrow agenda. There is more to say about the hierarchy, but, you need to start accepting their existence, before being able to deliver people from them will be a possibility. Jesus is the absolute, complete, full, total and uncompromising Truth.
If you don't believe His word, which will last [i]forever[/i], don't be surprised if you're missing out in understanding on some things.
Jesus is the Light. Coming to the Light is the only way to see where you are, properly, and where you've come from, and to see more spiritual truths.
| 2008/4/12 11:27|
Santa Clara, CA
| Re: Demonology|
You will remember, that Jesus permitted the demons from Legion to go into pigs. They will also dwell in other animals.
Remembering this, there are some which have the characteristics of animals. Remember when Jesus called someone a 'fox'? There are also spirits whose nature is like a snake's. Thus, you have a crazy situation where there is part of a 'psychiatric' diagnosis known as 'grunts and oinks' - and of course, these people have no idea how to deliver the sufferer.
Such nonsense! A term of derision is not transferable to a state of condition ... This is mumbo jumbo, "spirits whose nature is like a snake?" So this would make the Canaan woman what ... possessor of a 'dog spirit'? This is extra-biblical claptrap and not any different from the likes of "the spirit of tobacco" or "the spirit of poverty" ...
This is where discermnemt is essential. And that is a gift of the Holy Spirit, which God gives to some with the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Indeed it is essential. I do not know that it takes any special discernment to say that this is all hogwash. Discerning of spirits isn't to attach labels or qualities or even kinds and types to them but whether they are true or false;
[b]To another discerning of spirits[/b] - compare 1Jo_4:1. This must refer to some power of searching into the secrets of the heart; of knowing what were a mans purposes. views, and feelings. It may relate either to the power of determining by what spirit a man spoke who pretended to be inspired, whether he was truly inspired or whether he was an impostor; or it may refer to the power of seeing whether a man was sincere or not in his Christian profession That the apostles had this power, is apparent from the case of Ananias and Sapphira, Act_5:1-10, and from the case of Elymas, Act_13:9-11. It is evident that where the gift of prophecy and inspiration was possessed, and where it would confer such advantages on those who possessed it, there would be many pretenders to it; and that it would be of vast importance to the infant church, in order to prevent imposition, that there should be a power in the church of detecting the imposture.
One last thing about demons is that they are very limited. They have a very narrow agenda. There is more to say about the hierarchy, but, you need to start accepting their existence, before being able to deliver people from them will be a possibility.
No, there is nothing to say about the hierarchy except in your imagination. And what do you know of their agenda? Where you get these things and then muddy it all with psychological notions is to confuse beyond confusion. There is no biblical warrant for any of this. If you think you are being picked on here, it cannot be helped, to just let this go on as if it were so ...
The amount of information given in Scripture regarding demons is limited. That there is a mention here and there of 'types' does not give us license to extrapolation.
Consider the Television. If a person from Jesus time saw a television, they would see a box full of demons and have absolutely no understanding of the physics that make the thing work. We know different; that its just electrons flying around and no demons are involved. (unless you start in on the content, which is another matter altogether.)
That's a poor argument Bub trying to equate the two and further this idea that we have such advanced knowledge and they were just poor ignorant dupes.
demons seem like a historical artifact used to explain the unexplainable.
And yet the same Jesus you say you believe must also therefore become suspect, He must have been ignorant as well ... So you put yourself once again by this parsing of the scriptures into that which fits your taste and that which you do not understand as being rejection-able.
About the only piece of acknowledgment I can give here is that of extremes where there is thought to be a devil\demon behind every situation and circumstance and the opposite of full blown rejection of their existence.
And you would wonder at us who try and hold to the test of scripture with some of these notions being tossed around.
| 2008/4/12 16:39||Profile|
| Re: demons??|
Dear Mike, my friend, I sure am looking forward to meeting you... ;-)
I thank you for your concern that I might feel picked upon. Please prepare yourself for a robust answer, since you have felt expansively free to rubbish my knowledge base. If what you mean is, you don't know whether what I've written is true in absolute terms, that would be different, but you have done more extrapolating than I have, and, Albert Barnes appears to have operated on pure guesswork occasionally.
Quote:I'm sorry, I don't know what you meant by this and perhaps it was not in response to my post - but please could you clarify? Thanks.
A term of derision is not transferable to a state of condition ...
Quote:Here is an extrapolation which was unnecessary. I did not suggest this, nor do I believe this is what the woman meant when she referred to herself as a dog. But, I do believe 'dogs' elsewhere in the New Testament refers to Baal worshippers.
So this would make the Canaan woman what ... possessor of a 'dog spirit'?
Quote:Mike, I think this phrase has become an excuse for not even attempting to comprehend what is being communicated which [i]is[/i] of God, though expressed in language you don't like sometimes.
This is extra-biblical
The fact is, that every one of us believers (and unbelievers) these days is having an 'extra-biblical' experience of God's dealings. But God has not changed and we find Him true to His word to our hearts, usually in very simple language. I know what you mean about phrases like 'spirit of tobacco', but you are missing something of its truth, if you dismiss them indiscriminately.
Albert Barnes said
Quote:Must it? This is just exactly where there is a misunderstanding about how spirits affect a person.... the [u]assumption[/u] that the man [i]wants[/i] to be under their power and has invited them in - which of course is possible that he did and does, and it [u]is[/u] a reflection of sin he has desired - but this kind of man is a conscious and deliberate occultist; he is not the one who is haplessly and unwillingly imprisoned by a power stronger than his own - the kind of man whom Jesus was sent to release, and glady did so with great compassion.
[b]This must refer to some power of searching into the secrets of the heart[/b]; of knowing what were a mans purposes. views, and feelings.
Albert Barnes said
More guesswork. One of the ways we know if a person is being controlled by another spirit, is their behaviour. This is how we know a person is being controlled by the Holy Spirit, also.
Quote:I spoke the truth. Please do further research, and bear in mind that Jesus even said 'this kind'... 'only by'... It is clear there is a hierarchy of angels on God's side. Why would there not be on the Adversary's side? (This is backed up by the experience of those who have battled with them.) Of course, they all do bow to the name of Jesus, from the greatest to the least.
No, there is nothing to say about the hierarchy except in your imagination.
Quote:Do you mean you feel duty-bound to say something because you find it disturbing, unbelievable, or you are incredulous, or .... you really [i]believe[/i] everything in my post is untrue?
to just let this go on as if it were so ...
If I may be as candid as yourself, (I'm planning to be less candid, actually), I feel you are challenging my little knowledge on the basis of your lack of knowledge, rather than with fact you can present which clearly shows my words to be false. Please also keep at the front of your mind that I was messed-up by a mediocre demonologist, and I do have a fair history of being the one who needed deliverance.
Quote:How can you say this....? The Old Testament....? Ring any bells....?
There is no biblical warrant for any of this.
Quote:I'm sure that's deliberate. But it doesn't mean that there is no knowledge, or no demon worship, or no powers given over to evil. Did you ever notice this description of total combustion before....? This really has happened to people who give themselves over to evil today. It's not merely a piece of poetic biblical hyperbole.
The amount of information given in Scripture regarding demons is limited.
[color=6633FF]18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; [u]therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee[/u]. 19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never [i]shalt[/i] thou [i]be[/i] any more. Ezekiel 28[/color]
There is also testimony of pagan shrines going up in flames, where a person has turned from some other worship (eg ancestor), to Christ. He destroys their tabernacle, as a sign of His greaterness, which is a great comfort to the new Christian.
Quote:Here again you are assuming I would justify my statements all from scripture. Perhaps it is true that much of what I have come to know, is implicit in the OT references, and those who have actively engaged in those particular activities which are expressly forbidden in scripture, could give you more direct information than I can.
That there is a mention here and there of 'types' does not give us license to extrapolation.
I don't think a Christian sets out to understand these things unless God is firmly pushing them along, either of necessity (as in my case), or calling\gifting in the case of those who see spiritual issues with exceptonal clarity. Some things I do see far more clearly than these. But the lack of definition in [i]my[/i] understanding doesn't render what understanding I have, either meaningless or void.
I do know, from my own long struggle for freedom, that the Holy Spirit's presence in my life caused a tension. He was always giving me the word of God, and this was always at variance with the spirits which controlled my mind with their thoughts. Interestingly (if you want to understand this better), I was only [i]that[/i] vulnerable to other spirits because I had pushed certain God-ordained parts of my life into a corner, because I found them hard to handle, and that created a space which anything else could fill. This is an aspect of what Jesus warned.
Or whatever's ... I doubt I'm the only person on earth who has experienced this. And I would say also, I know I'm not the only person who has fought for objectivity about their own bondages, to whom God has ministered in a kind of picture language. But that He does, makes it all the more (not less) real, spiritually. You simply [i]must[/i] believe that the invisible world is more real than the visible. This is the only sane starting-point for getting hold of reality.
And just like there are different kinds of snake with their own particular habitat, so a spirit has its own differentiated characteristics. I don't think we always know the fulness of these, but when we begin to make the distinction, we are in a position to resist in Jesus' name. While a spirit is at home with us, we are trapped. And sometimes, it takes another person to speak the word of freedom, but not always. Jesus breaks (loosens) every fetter, and He sets [u]me[/u] free.
Okay. I don't propose to say more about this in this thread. I'm no expert. Seriously. But I know what I know, and the scepticism of no-one is going to convince me I have fought with fresh air. Your battles may be, but mine were not.
One of the greatest mistakes of this generation are concepts of [i]aliens[/i], the [i]big friendly giant[/i], or, that [i]witches aren't real[/i], or... well, okay... witches are real but [i]they don't do any harm[/i] or ... whatever other real thing has been questioned. To teach children thus, is to rob them of their [i]better judgement[/i] and render them more vulnerable than they already are, if they were born into a Christian home.
Wake up! Jesus died for a reason. Remember?
| 2008/4/12 20:40|
I feel you are challenging my little knowledge on the basis of your lack of knowledge, rather than with fact you can present which clearly shows my words to be false.
Linn, your last post to Mike was deplorable, and demonstrates before us all that you have no intention of ever submitting or humbling yourself to the authority and discernment in these forums vested by God to the moderators. The quote above perfectly embodies the spirit behind all your posts. Very subtle and smooth, but I can see beneath the veneer. For as long as I've known you, you've seen yourself as both the self-styled prophetess, the extra-biblical seer, the counselor on all fronts, the consummate theologian, the teacher, the therapist...and in all these areas I have seen you minister death.
You hang low for a time, posting innocuous words of praise and hymns...and then pounce at the opportunity to oppose the ministy of the leadership put here by the same God you praise. You speak out of turn, you undermine solid, pure Biblical teaching and the admonishings of men by the Lord, and cleverly inject your own lethal, humanistic views on marriage, abortion, extra-biblical dreams, and prophecy with a disregard to sober exegesis. You endeavor to teach, teach, teach, yet all your posts are unctionless and dead and void of the Spirit of God because you yourself are in rebellion to the order God has set in place, both in this forum, and, according to the multitude of posts I have read by your own disclosure, your own life as well. The saddest part is it that you apparently have no intention of stopping the momentum.
Woman, you are out of order here, and have been for a very long time. Greg has been gracious in allowing this to go on as long as it has, more than I could ever be. I beseech you to search your heart and see if all this isn't so. You have even been exhorted by another sister here to check your ways and be humbled, and it had no effect. It is one thing for a woman to be reproved by a man, but if she is reproved by another sister of her own age, this is prime cause to begin praying.
Paul Frederick West
| 2008/4/13 0:39||Profile|
Quote:Her name is Linn.
Woman, you are out of order here,
| 2008/4/14 10:39|
It is you thats out of line!
You endeavor to teach, teach, teach, yet all your posts are unctionless and dead and void of the Spirit of God because you yourself are in rebellion to the order God has set in place, both in this forum, and, according to the multitude of posts I have read by your own disclosure, your own life as well. The saddest part is it that you apparently have no intention of stopping the momentum.
Paul,do you have unforgiveness against this woman?
| 2008/4/14 11:41||Profile|
Dear SI folks,
Been thinking about this over the weekend. what i conclude is that we interpret the Bible so differently that we will always have differences.
For me, the Truth of the Bible is that it accurately conveys what people believed at the time. Belief in demons is an example.
when i survey the world around me i see lots of references to diseases such as epilepsy, that can make a person disabled. I don't find such references in the Bible, but epilepsy is real. in the Bible there are lots of references to demons, but in my world survey i find no such thing.
What i hear SI folks saying is that because people at the time of the Bible believed in demons, this must be true (even though there are other explanations.) Yes, Jesus addressed this belief and did not contradict it, but if he had used modern understanding to address something like this, no one would have understood Him. and His purpose was not to set us straight on everything, but to provide us with a means of Salvation and teachings on how to deal with the difficulties of life.
this literal approach to interpreting the Bible also means that unless what we have discovered since that time fits within its terms, then these things must also be untrue. Evolution is one thing i am refering to, here. We can know from direct observation that the universe is expanding in all directions and that if you reverse time everything ends up in the same place, but SI folks deny the big bang because it isn't in the Bible.
this approach assumes that people of the time of the Bible had all knowledge or were prescient. and this approach will lead to false ideas and perhaps even false religion because it is an incorrect way of interpreting.
| 2008/4/14 11:48|
Guys. Are we [i]that[/i] thin skinned that no one can rebuke us? Are we to [i]that[/i] point that we feel offended by godly council?
[u][b]Proverbs 10:17 (NKJV)[/b][/u]
He who keeps instruction is in the way of life, But he who refuses correction goes astray.
Regardless if you like it or not, the moderators are in charge of this forum. If you are a part of this forum, you choose to submit to their authority. If someone is in need of rubuke and the moderators deem it necessary, then we should trust that this rebuke has been prayed about before posting.
There have been times where I have been rebuked privately and publically by the moderators here. I have been rebuked by brothers and sisters here as well. Each and everytime I pray about it and set it before the Lord. Very few times have I found that these rebukes towards me were unfounded.
My suggestion to Linn, as to anyone, is to take the rebuke as it is, present it before Jesus, and see what He will say about this.
| 2008/4/14 12:42||Profile|
Been thinking about this over the weekend.
Have you been thinking about this, or praying about this? Makes a BIG difference.
| 2008/4/14 12:57||Profile|
There are times to sit and "take it" and times to stand for what is right.
Abuse through leadership is what Jesus rebuked.
Peter (a leader) was openly rebuked.
A rebuke should involve the persons best interest
not a desire to slam them into a valley of despair.
Are we saying the moderators can never be wrong?
This is scary!
| 2008/4/14 12:58||Profile|