| Do we need to plead with God for revival?|
I have listened to lots of Leonard Ravenhill's sermons specific to Revival. I think I am in agreement with most of his thoughts except few like observing fourth commandment (sunday as "Christian Sabbath") etc.
Today I read this article which talks about revival in a different perspective and I am kind of confused. Will be glad to have clarity on this subject with Biblical reference.
Moses actually told God, Repent! What nerve! What is even more amazing is that God repented. From these and other stories in the Old Testament, modern-day intercessors believe we too must stand in the gap, or mediate, between God and man. Just as I did decades ago, they believe we must plead with God to save the lost, to withhold His wrath from those He is ready to judge, and to be merciful to those whose needs He is unwilling to meet because of their unworthiness.
That couldnt be further from the truth, but it is whats being taught in many churches today. It ignores the fact that Jesus is now seated at the right hand of the Father (Heb. 10:12) ever making intercession for us (Heb. 7:25). If Moses or Abraham could persuade God, dont you think that Jesus could do at least as well?
For full text please visit http://www.awmi.net/extra/article/better_pray
| 2008/4/11 3:59||Profile|
| Re: Do we need to plead with God for revival?|
Interesting article, although no idea if it's right or wrong. Hopefully someone can help you!
| 2008/4/11 10:11|
I believe there are two kinds of revival....one for the saved, and one for the Lost.
The ONLY revival that will happen with the Saved is when Galatians is taught, setting people free from legalism or legalized Grace,
And for the Lost, introducing sinners to the Gospel of GRACE.
| 2008/4/11 10:20|
Santa Clara, CA
| Re: Do we need to plead with God for revival?|
Don't know that this article speaks at all to revival but what it does speak to is certainly confused and some really bad theology.
"[i][b]First, we need to recognize that God isnt angry at mankind anymore.[/b] He is no longer imputing or holding our sins against us.[/i]"
As he goes on with the rest of this, it is a parsing of truths at the expense of others. In other words, taking verses and attempting to make them stand on all fours.
Before I understood this, I would say, If God doesnt judge America, He will have to apologize to Sodom and Gomorrah. Now I say, If God judges America, He will have to apologize to Jesus. Understanding what Jesus did completely changes your perspective.
Curious he would ascribe Ravenhills quote to himself, but as it goes on it is also muddled and just nonsensical. It would take a great deal to go through all this piece by piece. The book of Romans, the Sermon on the mount, Revelations ... Even the oft quoted but context lacking ...
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
... might be a good parallel to his attempts. If this be true and it certainly is, then the antithesis of it all expects that those who believe not will perish.
Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
This, taken in isolation might appeal to his notion as well, that "God is no longer angry with mankind" yet ...
Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Joh 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
Joh 3:20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
1. The act of condemning; the judicial act of declaring one guilty, and dooming him to punishment.
For the judgment was by one to condemnation. Rom 5.
2. The state of being condemned.
Dost thou not fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation. Luke 23.
3. The cause or reason of a sentence of condemnation. John 3.
He blurs the lines on mediation and intercession, so much so that it seems better to just ignore it all rather than attempt to unravel it. Over-stressing Moses' pleading back to God His own attributes still doesn't displace who is standing where. In other words, it is beyond the stretch of credulity to infer that the Lord was mistaken and in need of 'repentance' as this can be crafted to be understood.
Exo 32:13 Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, thy servants, to whom thou swarest by thine own self, and saidst unto them, I will multiply your seed as the stars of heaven, and all this land that I have spoken of will I give unto your seed, and they shall inherit it for ever.
Exo 32:14 And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.
Again, context. All of this has to be taken in the context of the whole narrative, all that comes before it and all afterward.
[i]"In the New Covenant, Jesus is the ONLY mediator needed to stand between God the Father and mankind. Sin is no longer a problem with God; its been atoned for and we are now the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus. That is how God sees us. If we understand that, it will change the way we pray.[/i]"
He is deluded to think that sin is no longer a problem with God. This is a short step to universalism. Besides, he contradicts himself;
[i]"Meanwhile, families, co-workers, and neighbors are going to hell and dying from disease.[/i]"
How so, if sin is no longer a problem? Maybe there is some idea of difference between the saved and unsaved, but it is not stated just blurred.
"[i]And we are not told to pray for the sick, but to heal the sick by commanding healing into their broken bodies (Matt. 10:8).[/i]"
[i]"We no longer need to beg or plead; we need to exercise the authority He as given us and receive His blessings.[/i]"
So it's really up to us after all, just 'command' and 'exercise' ... This has the earmarks and language of present day Charismatic constructs. There is a real problem with things of his sort. Even the attempt to correct it is lacking and difficult ...
[i]Satan is behind much of the wrong teaching on prayer in the body of Christ today. Consider how crafty his plan is and the fruit it produces. He has convinced believers to stay in their closets taking the place of Jesus in intercession. There, they spend hours pleading with God to turn from His wrath, to pour out His Spirit, and to meet the needs of the people.[/i]
This is a self indicting statement.I do not know that in large part anyone is under some disillusionment that they are "taking the place of Jesus" short of popes and some who deem themselves prophets. To believe all this one would have to ignore everything spoken about prayer in the New Testament. This is all very, very poor. I wouldn't pay any heed to it at all.
[url=http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&order=0&topic_id=20793&forum=34&post_id=&refresh=Go]LORD, TEACH US To Pray By ALEXANDER WHYTE[/url]
| 2008/4/12 12:49||Profile|
Phoenix, Arizona USA
Thanks for your insight on this article Mike, I wanted to comment on it yesterday but didn't have the time.
This article is indeed confused. Right from the start the author makes a confused statement about his own prayers in saying , "Did I really believe I loved these people more than God?" I don't know of anyone who thinks that way in prayer. The burden for a lost soul pours forth from the compassion and love that God has placed in our hearts and we bring that burden back to Him in faith, trusting that He is the only possible supply for the great need pressing upon us.
I agree that the article smacks of universalism and ignores the sin problem that must be dealt with. I think this guy might have upbraided Daniel for confessing and repenting for the sins of Israel after he read and understood from Jeremiah that the days of captivity in Babylon were accomplished. Daniel didn't just sit back with the understanding he was given and say, 'OK God, you're not angry with us anymore, we're going back home." No,instead he cried out to God in confession and repentance seeking for God to fulfill all His will, and his prayer was heard.
Meetwes, you'd do well to stick with Ravenhill's advice over this other mans.
| 2008/4/12 13:28||Profile|
| Re: Do we need to plead with God for revival?|
Abraham did indeed plead with God over the cities
of Sodom and Gommorah. Moses did indeed plead
with God when His wrath was against the children
of Israel. It is our part to intercede for those
who are without God and without hope; that God
would send mercy!!
Martin G. Smith
| 2008/4/12 15:03||Profile|
| Re: Do we need to plead with God for revival?|
I have to go out on a limb as an advocate for the seeming "wrong side" here and say that I believe there is MUCH truth in the article in question. I must also say that I believe there is much over emphasis and imbalance in the message. The truth that there is no condemnation or charges against the believer due to the fact that justice has been fully satisfied in Jesus, is a great truth that many in the "revival", deeper life, "keswick" style schools of thought need to embrace and realize.
However, we are also clearly taught and warned in passages such as Hebrews 10:26-31 and Hebrews 12:24-25 that refusing this grace and "trampling the son of God underfoot...insulting the spirit of Grace" greater judgment and wrath is actually due to the guilty party.
I think, as is the case on both sides, this man has seen and experienced a truth which he was painfully deprived of at critical times in his Christian experience. Therefore, when he discovered truth that set him free he feels obligated to publish it abroad. Unfortunately, many times radical voices of reformation tend to over emphasize and become unbalanced. The same can be said (no offense) for many on this site who take the truths of God's judgment, anger and wrath to an unhealthy and imbalanced extreme. The truth is, your understanding of God's judgment and wrath is absolutely deficient (beyond question or arguement) without having a proper view of satisfied justice through Jesus Christ. Likewise your view of grace and the friendly countenance of God will be deficient and ultimately lead you into lasciviousness without a real, gut-wrenching revelation of what satisfied justice truly looked like. In other words a revelation of the sufferings of Christ.
Just my two cents . . .
| 2008/4/12 15:33||Profile|
| Re: the great falling away has begun in earnest,beware false teachers!|
If you are in Christ,you are one with Him..He is the Anointed One and in Him we live and move(in prayer) and have our being..if Christ is not living in you..and you see Him as seperate from you..you can do nothing..your prayer not being anointed or full of the Spirit will not be effective and will not avail much..it is the Holy Spirit within us that teaches us how to pray as we ought..The Holy Spirit is part of the manifold grace of God, the Spirit of grace,God's will being done on earth,us praying,As one with His will..Without this infilling empowering Presence ,you can do nothing but your own works..because to deny this is to deny Christ's very words spoken ,His promise given to the first apostles and to us who believe who are of the same body as they..the body of Christ..if yoiu are not one with the head, you are still on the throne of your own life..you may have thought you were interceding..but you were praying out of your own understanding..not in the spirit..pray in the spirit always..which does not mean only in tongues,then you will pray aright and pray not of your fleshly zeal which amounts to nothing.I'm not even going to go into the prayers of some that are nothing more than spells,wretched evil witchcraft,under the guise of righteous prayer.
Jesus whom we are made one with(John17)who lives ever interceding for the saints,His intercession on the cross(action) enableds us to be saved,all to be saved,he is ever interceding through us who are filled with the Holy Spirit..there is no seperating the reality of this is my life in Christ.He does it all through the day..I don't even have to think about it with my natural mind..like,oh..I think I'll pray for so and so..no.. He is there moving me in prayer..it is of the Spirit..I am made aware consciously when He shows me,We are praying for this one and/or that..I am the vessel He is using to pray and while we are praying together..He is teaching me how to pray for whatever,whomever..He is the treasure in this vessel..He is one with the Father and one with the Spirit of God..these are all one..it is the same for us, one Spirit,one Lord,one mind and one heart..one body..we are one with Him or we are not ..what is described in this man's teaching grieves my spirit when I read it..it twists and turns around..it is not the straight and narrow path..it horrifies me to think some may believe him..Lord have mercy!
This kind of teaching is just the very thing that the Spirit of Truth has been warning me about that has put a stranglehold on revival..the lack of love to pray for one another..and for your neighbor/even your enemy as well.It's almost unbelievable that he is actually giving everyone the very excuse so many are looking for,so if it appeals to you.beware!..the hearts of many will wax cold,preceding the great falling away..one way for this to happen for a surety is not to pray for those who need to know Jesus..whether they are fallen and need to be restored,revived,returned to a healthy state of vitality in their faith,apathetic and lifeless,powerless or have never had saving faith..they are both on dangerous ground.Jesus said He would even remove the lampstand from it's place of those who were believers, full of knowledge,able to point out false apostles,but disqualified because of their lack of love,unconditional,God's kind of love.These are those who have lost their first love.These are those left in darkness with no light in them.Beware lest the light in you is darkness.
Who is the First and the Last? Jesus!Who's love is first? Who do we become like because He is being formed in us? Jesus!who interceeds?Jesus in us..we need to return to do the first works..we must hold fast to His works..He said so.Those have not this selfless and all encompasing love need to repent according to His word! He will also blot out the names of those whose works do not measure up,who have been beggarly in love and in faith..prayer is a work of faith..blot them out He says from the Book of Life who do not have the Life,Himself living in them..who have a name of being Christian as though they were alive..they ought to be, what with calling themselves by His name and all..but they are dead. Both these types of believers and the unbelievers need repentance..this is what happens at revival..returning to God in full surrender and repentance..deep and real..conviction brought about by the Holy Spirit to cause people to become aligned with God's perfect will.Surrender!So Jesus can come into them and sup with them and they with Him.
Anyone who has been used to genuinely intercede, in the Holy Spirit, will see the deception in this man's teaching..oh by the way,he is saying,don't bother praying.Woe!
G.M. (Destiny) Sweet
| 2008/4/12 23:51||Profile|
Quote:I agree, because his thesis is angled to contradict the false doctrine he had believed, which is basically an Old Covenant mindset retained in New Covenant era.
I have to go out on a limb as an advocate for the seeming "wrong side" here and say that I believe there is MUCH truth in the article in question.
I believe though, that those old prophets were doing something Isaiah expresses here, which later Jesus fulfils, and as He is in us, so also do we.
Thus saith the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker, [i]Ask me of things to come concerning my sons, and concerning the work of my hands [u]command ye me[/u][/i].
32 And he said unto them, Go ye, and tell that fox, Behold, I cast out devils, and I do cures to day and to morrow, and the third [i]day[/i] I shall be perfected.
33 Nevertheless I must walk to day, and to morrow, and the [i]day[/i] following: for it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem.[/color]
We must make our own Jerusalem journey, without ceasing to fulfil what He was commanded, which command He gave His disciples:
Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.
Why should it be thought a thing incredible with you, that God should raise the dead?)[/color]
It is true that we are to ask our Father for His will and according to His will; the gift of the Holy Spirit both enables and leads us to do this spontaneously.
And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,
18 The Spirit of the Lord [i]is[/i] upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord. [/color]
| 2008/4/14 5:47|
Hello Ron. In speaking of confusion, I am confused by your website and how you can reconcile the writngs of McArthur and the other writers, especially Fromke. There is no doubt McArthur speaks some truth, mingled with human reasoning however, the others do also to some degree and never the twain shall meet in their human reasoning and understanding, some more so than others, if you get my drift? Why promote confusion-mixed message of the gospel. All you have to do is read Fromke's "Ultimate Intention" and you will know exactly what I am driving at. McArthur would never agree with that book. He is too wrapped up in the redemption issues.
| 2008/4/14 6:52|