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ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4779


 Re:

Hi Brother Tom...

Quote:
I have read the original post and all responses. I appreciate the scholarship of Brother Smith and historical research, nailing this deception for what it is.

Is it possible to discuss these issue WITHOUT using the "d" word ("deception"). This tends to be a trend lately. We want to call anything that doesn't agree with our particular doctrinal view a "deception."

I currently [i]lean[/i] toward a belief in a pre-wrath "rapture" (although I don't like the word so much). I have read the Scriptures clearly and from the "Berean" mindset (as if there were any other manner for a believer?). Yet I just cannot see the Lord forcing His bride to suffer through His wrath as it will be poured out upon the ENTIRE Earth.

We have had these discussions many times before. I always appreciate the views presented by various brethren such as the one in this article (even if I may not fully agree with it). However, I am greatly disheartened when one brother or sister feels the "liberty" to call a belief to be "heresy" when the truth cannot currently be ascertained beyond any doubt. Yes, there are very vital doctrines that are obviously presented in the Scriptures that are above discussion, and any deviation is obviously wrong. But a discussion about the timing and manner of the Lord's return? The early Church -- those who actually walked, ate and rested near our Lord on this Earth -- didn't know the exact nature of all of these things.

The Church has always endured tribulation. We have endured gossip, whispers, fingers of accusation and false allegations. We have endured hardship, hunger, thirst. The Church has been whipped, beaten, and crucified. In the beginning, believers were fed to lions and were even sawed in two. The Church has faced the tribulations of this world -- from the people of this world and from the god of this age. However, the time of God's wrath that will come upon the entire world is different. Instead of the mere tribulation of man and Satan -- this world will suffer the wrath of God.

Will God protect his children from His wrath? How? Will the Groom come and take the Bride to the place that He has prepared? Or will the Bride of Christ be destroyed by the same judgments that will be poured indiscriminantly upon entire portions of the Earth (wiping out a third here and a third there)?

I'm not completely sure. In fact, I don't know that anyone can be totally sure -- enough to call all other alternatives a "deception." The very use of such a word indicates a "purpose to deceive." I have heard it used by people speaking of the gifts of the Spirit. I have heard it used by those speaking about Bible prophecy. I just feel that we need to limit the use of such a word to those things that we know to be sure beyond ANY fraction of a doubt.

Anyway, I do appreciate this article and the discussion that such an article can fester. I just hope that we can do so without feeling that sort of security that calls something that isn't completely and totally certain a "lie." Until I come to such a point, I will remain with Keith Green's approach to the End: Pray for pre-trib but be prepared for post-trib. As Brother David Wilkerson said when he was asked about his views on either a pre-trib, mid-trib or post-trib view, he stated that he believed in "PAN-trib." He said, "[i]It will all pan out in the End[/]!"

:-)


_________________
Christopher

 2008/4/12 1:56Profile









 Re: A lying prophesy believed has dire consequences.




Jeremiah 28vs.15


Then Jeremiah the prophet said to Hananiah the prophet;"Listen,listen now, Hananiah! The Lord has not sent you, and you have made the people trust in a lie!" Therefore thus says the Lord;"I am about to remove you from the face of the Earth, BECAUSE TOU HAVE COUNSELED REBELLION AGAINST THE LORD!"

So, Hananiah the prophet died in the same year, in the 7th month.


``` If we, for the sake of comfort, bring a false comfort to God's people, through a lying prophesy, we counsel rebellion. This pre-tribulation doctrine came from the lips of a dreamer, in the 1840s, as was so accurately and historically documented by Brother Smith, and is widely known to have originated here. It fits the description of exactly what a FALSE prophesy is. In the Biblical scheme of time and Word, it's brand, spanking new. Furthermore, as Brother Smith so aptly exposed, it is without a single Bible reference, while,"The 7th trump", post tribulation Bible version, has SCORES of New Testament endorsement.


So, I won't call it deception, but a LIE, and a lying prophesy, meant by Satan to lure Believers into complacency; that peace and prosperity would continue. "everything will be "well with your soul", even in the midst of gross apostasy, it's ok, God loves you , and is for you!" You will not suffer terror!


This is true, as long as we continue in repentance and holiness. Therefore, God's controversy with Hananiah. So it is today.



When we become assured of continuing prosperity, the human spirit drifts toward complacency, and , as the Jews did in Jeremiah's day; they lost the Fear of the Lord. Unbelief. If they really believed Jeremiah[proven true over and over, and certainly here; Hananiah died!] Yet, no repentance, no preparation of heart, no FAITH....no life.


Remember though, there were a few, that sighed and groaned over the sins and rebellion, whom were spared, as the Angel went about, and marked these on their foreheads, within the gates of Jerusalem. These were saved in the midst of Wrath, for they knew every thing wasn't going to be ok, and bore God's heart as they witnessed Apostasy every day.


Your "How can anyone be sure?" argument is childish. I ask you, How can you be sure the Bible is God's Word? You can't; if so , prove it.


I trust, that you like me, believe the Bible is true, by our faith. Satan brought a similar argument to EVE..."Has God said?" Doubt is the foundation of rebellion. It's not an argument.



This ties in with your statement about others who aren't sure either, and because they are famous, and have a good report, therefore my argument and faith MUST, or COULD be true. This is also an extremely flawed faith statement as Christians must always found their faith in The Lord, and the Bible Word of God. If men of God fall in a ditch, because of their error, where will you end up? Men may teach, and preach, and we glean and are fed, as the Lord leads, and feeds, THROUGH THEM!


Where did you, and how could you end up with an assumption that the 7th trump word about the Parousia would POSSIBLY result in"the Bride being destroyed"? I'm flabbergasted! The entire point is that Jesus is returning for a pure and spotless Bride. Do you read your Bible? It's an impossibility! IF, you believe your Word. This is rooted in ignorant fear,maybe to bolster a position with Zero biblical or historical merit.


Rebellion causes God's people to believe a lie, so I will call this modern, dream derived, false, unbiblical deception what it is, a LIE.



To a brother, yours, Brothertom.







 2008/4/12 7:54









 Re:

Furthermore, as Brother Smith so aptly exposed, it is without a single Bible reference,



Amen what a dangerous method in attempting to be accurate. I don't see this topic as a separating factor for Christians, at least it shouldn't be.

We know he is coming back and who he is coming back for(the church) (his church)Surely we can be objective in accessing when he is coming back because he says no man knows the hour or the day but be ready.

I believe the pretrib version and if I am prepared for the post-trib version and it won't be by my power or my strength but his power and his strength I survive and live forever, in the same way he saved me at conversion. None of us can do anything apart from his power, strength, grace and mercy. If he doesn't come through with the strength that we need at anytime, we are sunk.

We are a proud people we usually don't want nothing for free, we say no let me pay you for that. The truth is we can't pay our sin debt, only one was qualified and worthy to do that. Look the lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world. However we will pay for our sins in hell if we fail to let Jesus pay the debt. Jesus said his grace was sufficient and that in our weakness his power is made perfect. When he does save us, we return to him over and over as the one of the lepers out of 10 to thank him as our Lord and ruler of our life. We fail but we don't fall.

I believe that and Lord help us all to say we are weak and you are strong, and do not let us manufacture or depend on anything we think is our own strength in standing, whatever the case may be.

Back to the pre post trib subject, when we see the trump or trumpets in the Greek definition we can see that it may be referring to two different events. If we look at the trump and the trumpet as are they same, although the Greek definition are different, and the seventh trumpet being the last trump, then we could certainly understand the post-trib theory. We see these two definitions are different because they are different. There is more on this from our BLESSED HOPE, line upon line and precept upon precept, but let us get past this one first on this subject about the trumps, if possible.
SEE EARLIER POST.
A pre-trib brother
moe_mac

 2008/4/12 8:12









 Re:

I am not an arguer; I submit this in a spirit of meekness (although with typed words, I know it can be hard to tell). I think we need to see the tribulation for what it is. God is not out to kill us all and I realize I could be wrong but I believe that the WHOLE length of the tribulation will reveal the evil content of man’s heart – especially those who say they are Christians or even more disheartening, think they are in the Bride. We are told to not assume so arrogantly that we get to sit in the front row but to humbly take our seat in the back. Christians or not, we are dealing with the human heart here and its corrupt and evil, who can know it but the Lord?

So this post is not to pick on you Chris but that view of we are saved from “God’s wrath.” We read all through the Bible how God delivers those who trust in Him IN THE MIDST of adversity. He was the fourth man in the fire; he saved John from the death of being boiled alive. Even though John had to watch himself being lowered down into boiling oil and had no idea how it would turn out. I truly believe the pure in heart (to the pure all things are pure) will have nothing to fear going through the tribulation. If need be, he will rain down manna for his children and let water flow from the rock. He will take care of his own.

Quote:
ccchhhrrriiisss wrote:
Yet I just cannot see the Lord forcing His bride to suffer through His wrath as it will be poured out upon the ENTIRE Earth.



I humbly disagree with you and all who hold to this passivist view. To think like this is pure human reasoning. Did God not say in Isaiah 55.9-10, For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts. I humbly ask to all who believe this, How do you know WHAT the Lord will require of His Bride? We don’t.

To believe it’s an all or nothing thing about the Bride is presumption on the part of our human understanding. No matter how we study, the way of the Bereans or whatever, we still only see darkly as if through a glass; we don’t see the WHOLE entire picture. I don’t believe the Bride will be destroyed if she is here. I believe it will be her finest shining hour.

I can hope that I will shine if I am here but I will NOT take part in possibly misleading anyone that the Bride gets to leave. There are too many Scriptures that read otherwise. To me, teaching people this is indeed teaching them to save their life (in one form or another). Jesus himself tells us, "Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it. (Luke 17:33). We should seek to stay as long as possible to be witnesses either in death or life that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God.

So should we not have the attitude of Nehemiah 6.10-11. . .
10 Afterward I came unto the house of Shemaiah the son of Delaiah the son of Mehetabeel, who was shut up; and he said, Let us meet together in the house of God, within the temple, and let us shut the doors of the temple: for they will come to slay thee; yea, in the night will they come to slay thee.
11 And I said, Should such a man as I flee? and who is there, that, being as I am, would go into the temple to save his life? I will not go in.

 2008/4/12 10:53









 Re:

Quote:
We read all through the Bible how God delivers those who trust in Him IN THE MIDST of adversity.



While it is true there are examples of this, there are also examples of God delivering His people BEFORE His wrath fell. I think of Lot. He was delivered out of the city before His wrath fell. There are just as many examples of this as there are the other.

But when we have a pet doctrine we want to push we tend to only pick out the examples that bolster our doctrine... and ignore everything else as if it isnt there.

Bad way to use scripture.

And before you jump on me... I havent declared my position on this topic in this thread. I might actually agree with you... you never know.

One thing I have noticed, especially in this forum, there seems to be almost an arrogance among those who believe the church will go thru the tribulation. Kinda like a badge of honor, or like we're gonna show God how worthy we are by remaining faithful thru the tribulation. And then you call those who believe in a pre-Trib rapture things like "pacifists". Whats up with that?

Anyone want to go thru the Tribulation? Be my guest... I dont particularly want to. However, if thats God's plan, then thats what I will do. I've been to hell and back in my life, and it's hard to imagine that things will be even worse than I have seen in other parts of the world. The Tribulation wont be some Hollywood production... it's gonna be real.

Krispy

 2008/4/12 11:13









 Re:

Quote:
Bad way to use scripture.



Perhaps, but just cause you think it, doesn’t make it so, Krispy!! And besides, I can’t remember ever having a direct conversation with you. Nice to meet you!!!

Quote:
But when we have a pet doctrine we want to push we tend to only pick out the examples that bolster our doctrine... and ignore everything else as if it isnt there.


Now, you told me not to jump on you and here you are jumping on me!!! :) All I was trying to point out was our humanistic views toward escapism but NOW I have a “pet doctrine.” LOL

Quote:
I've been to hell and back in my life, and it's hard to imagine that things will be even worse than I have seen in other parts of the world. The Tribulation wont be some Hollywood production... it's gonna be real.


You are 100% correct and we are in total agreement here!!!

God bless you!!

 2008/4/12 11:54
tjservant
Member



Joined: 2006/8/25
Posts: 1658
Indiana USA

 Re:

Hi Chris

Quote:
I have read the Scriptures clearly and from the "Berean" mindset (as if there were any other manner for a believer?)



I believe there are many Christians that actually believe and trust their pastors and elders and do not feel the need to go to scripture on every issue.

I was simply voicing my concern for how easy it is to accept the views of loved ones and teachers, when a personal investigation may land us on the other side of the fence. I thought this was a good example of this very thing…regardless of who is “right or wrong”

I did not endorse either side in my post and I do have strong beliefs on this subject…but I usually just tell people to be “rapture ready”.


_________________
TJ

 2008/4/12 12:07Profile









 Re:

Quote:

tjservant wrote:
Hi Chris

Quote:
I have read the Scriptures clearly and from the "Berean" mindset (as if there were any other manner for a believer?)



Rev 10:5-7

5 Then the angel I had seen standing on the sea and on the land raised his right hand to heaven. 6 And he swore by him who lives for ever and ever, who created the heavens and all that is in them, the earth and all that is in it, and the sea and all that is in it, and said, "There will be no more delay! 7 But in the days[b]when the seventh angel is about to sound his trumpet, the mystery of God will be accomplished, just as he announced to his servants the prophets."[/b]

Just as the seventh angel is about to sound the seventh trumpet: Could these saints be in a different time zone maybe?
Compared to when the last trumpet sounds? What you think saints?

Not really that important, but I'm glad yall brought this up.
What is the mystery of God? Christ in his people.

Note: In Smith's study he said there was no mention of this until what Chapter?

 2008/4/12 12:33
psalm1
Member



Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 1230


 Re: Tribulation Or Rapture -smith

Quote;

"I am sure that with the true child of God it is not a question of preference but of truth. Does God’s Word say so? Why then rebel? Is not His plan best? Besides, what difference does it make so long as we are ready? "Spiritual Preparedness" is the only important factor after all.
I wonder if we have been lulling the Church into a false security? Can it be that we have been preaching an easy escape? Ought we to prepare the Church for the greatest of all ordeals? Should not our teaching harden her for the fires of the Tribulation? What kind of soldiers are we training? I am afraid that we have been very guilty and that God will certainly hold us responsible for the type of Christian our preaching is producing. We need men and women today of the martyr spirit. The test of the Inquisition is coming again and woe betide the pre-millennialists who are not ready. The Church must be purified in the fires of persecution.
VOICES OF OTHERS"


I find it interesting that this guy found his "truth" through reading books to help him get revelation, and yet it is a foregone conclusion of 99% of post trib debaters that pretrib believers basically never opened a bible to get their erroneous beliefs.

It is also interesting that Jesus himself speaks of the ones who are "ready" as the ones who leave and not stay and yet the post trib doctrine believers look upon the pretrib believers as not ready to stay.

The doctrine of post trib puts the believers perpetually on earth,never seeing heaven and yet the marriage supper of the lamb is in heaven with the bride.


Quote;

"I learned, too, that the word for "meet" in 1 Thessalonians 4: was only used in two other places, and, in both cases, it meant "returning with" and not "remaining at" the place of meeting. When the brethren from Rome met Paul, they immediately returned to the city with him. When the Virgins met the Bridegroom they accompanied Him back to the wedding. When the saints meet Christ in the Air, as He comes to judge the nations and establish His Kingdom on earth, they will return with Him. There is no Scripture that says they will remain for some seven years in the Air.
In 1 Thessalonians each chapter closes with a reference to the Second Coming, but no distinction is made. As Christ descends with His angels after the Tribulation, the saints ascend, and, meeting Him in the Air, turn and continue with Him back to the earth. How long He remains in the Air, following the meeting with the Church is nowhere revealed. "The Coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all His saints" (1 Thess. 3:13), is unquestionably the Revelation, after the Tribulation, simply because the words, "with all His saints" are added. But why infer another, a previous Coming, in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 and 1:10, or 5:23? It is all one and the same. There is no Secret Rapture. That theory must be deliberately read into the passage. There is no Rapture in Revelation until chapter nineteen is reached."

Notice the glossing over of the wedding supper with the bride.
Mr. Smith takes the most colossal event since the redemption of man and minimises it to a speed bump in his "doctrine of truth"

The core of the bible is the uniting and marriage of the Son with his bride,the remnant.

It seems the desire to place the bride somewhere she isn't is so great that the marriage and the marriage supper are somehow placed at the rear of Smith's priority list.

I think it is far better to study scripture than to read others conclusions in books.
It ought to send red flags to the reader if an author is predisposed to discrediting a segment of the body when that segment stands on solid scriptural ground.

It is outlandish and belittling to tell the ones ready to go with their groom "these deceived ones will be caught totally unprepared for the Antichrist"
My bible says "come Lord Jesus" and "surely I come quickly"
If I cant say "Lord Jesus come quickly" I better change my doctrine.


David

 2008/4/12 15:10Profile
tjservant
Member



Joined: 2006/8/25
Posts: 1658
Indiana USA

 Re:

Not to anyone in particular.

The author clearly states that he had arrived at his conclusion, "after years of study and prayer"

This article is simply a re-telling of his experience during those years. It is just the story of one man’s journey of change in regards to a particular doctrine…take it or leave it.

Whether you are pre, post, or during…there is plenty to glean from this article.


_________________
TJ

 2008/4/12 16:45Profile





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