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Jimm
Member



Joined: 2004/4/27
Posts: 498
Harare, ZIMBABWE

 Re: I am from Zimbabwe!

Hey Philologos

I think the subject says it all.


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James Gabriel Gondai Dziya

 2004/6/18 18:43Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

James
karibu san.
I have strong links with Ameva Farm and Bible School in Chegutu. Do you know that area?


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Ron Bailey

 2004/6/18 18:46Profile
Jimm
Member



Joined: 2004/4/27
Posts: 498
Harare, ZIMBABWE

 No kidding!

Philologos,

I have family there. I used to visit often. I know the Bible school you speak of. I will send you a personl message after dinner to elaborate.

James


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James Gabriel Gondai Dziya

 2004/6/18 18:49Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re: Legal Backgrounds

Just a thought... have you noticed how often Systematic Theologians have come from a legal background? Augustine, Tertulian, Calvin, Scofield, Finney? Wesley lectured in logic and rhetoric.

I have worked with (and 'managed') lawyers so I am not unfamiliar with the breed. Sometimes there is a relentless logic which insists of everything being 'neatly tidied' away. It is the finality of the 'tidying away' that disturbs me; although I suspect I suffer from the same malady. ;-)


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Ron Bailey

 2004/6/20 4:56Profile
sermonindex
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"Pilgrim and Sojourner." - 1 Peter 2:11

Online!
 Re:

Quote:
Just a thought... have you noticed how often Systematic Theologians have come from a legal background? Augustine, Tertulian, Calvin, Scofield, Finney? Wesley lectured in logic and rhetoric.


Yes thats a very interesting observation. I for some reason do appreciate this well thought out theology and determination in studying the scriptures. It's like what Leonard Ravenhill said about discipline in our day, "we have none". Ohh to have discipline like the men of old to study the scriptures and compare scriptures for hours and hours. Even many of the speakers on this site many that are in the trend of keswick theology had great discpline and well thought out studying of scriptures.

But something keeps coming back into my mind as I write this, the words of the apostle paul: "but we also have a wisdom that is no of this earth". Surely that is the most important wisdom to aquire the one that comes from above.

Even as I have been reading puritans of late, its amazing there way of logically explaining scripture and laying it out in such a complexity of thought with different viens of thoughts interweaving which would leave most of the modern day listeners lost at the 2nd point.


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SI Moderator - Greg Gordon

 2004/6/20 11:09Profile
Nasher
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Joined: 2003/7/28
Posts: 404
Watford, UK

 Re: The Scofield Bible: Blessing or Curse?

Hi Ron, here's what I agree with you on:

Translators inserting the 'words of man' into the text of 'the word of God' is wrong (i.e. it's not right!) [This excludes the amplified version which gives more clarity and depth on the meaning of some words]

Men inserting 'paragraph headings' and other 'interpretations' into the sacred text is wrong.


here's what I question you on:

"I think Scofield Bibles, and Dakes' and MacArthur should be banned for young Christians." - I think I understand where you are coming from, I see a society today amongst Christians, especially young Christians, where they no longer want to think, reason and get right into their bibles, they want to have it all-in-box-on-a-plate-with-a-straw! The trouble with that is the people who put it all-in-box-on-a-plate-with-a-straw are not perfect! We (I include myself) seem to forget (or ignore would perhaps be more accurate) James 1:5

If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

This is not to say we should read other books or ask other Christians about certain passages, but we should always remember that when we read other books, comments or listen to teachers, that what they say is not always the word of God!

It's like you say Ron "don't believe a word I say, unless it is from the scriptures"

With this is mind I think that study bibles etc. should have in very big words in the introduction something like:

"The notes I have added are not the word of God, they are to provoke some thoughts in your mind, remember James 1:5

If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him."


I think I also understand you when you object to the words of Christ in red, as you say "I have a very special bible - I have the words of the Holy Spirit in black!" People may think that the words of Christ are more important than the rest of the bible, whereas all the words (including Christ's) have come from the Holy Spirit. The only reason I like them is when I'm trying to find where He said something or other and I find it a little easier.


You say "Let the text be unadorned and let the scholars put their ideas into separate books." Are you saying that the bible shouldn't be divided up into verses and chapters either?


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Mark Nash

 2004/6/21 5:17Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Hi Nasher
Perhaps my statement was too strong. But imagine receiving a 'love letter' from your wife that had been annotated and 'interpreted'. Would you feel a little affronted that someone had had the nerve to do such a thing? I rest my case. ;-)

One of the great advantages of some electronic texts is that you can hide the verse divisions. I do it often. Some anotated versions can be valuable for study, but for just listening to the voice of God I would prefer the unadorned 'love letter'.

Chapter divisions and verse breaks are a mixed blessing. David Pawson (an English preacher) will usually only give chapter references in his preaching. He purposely avoids verses saying that people don't quote the Bible any more they just quote texts. He usually asks this question; do you know what John 3:16 says? When folk say 'yes' he says and do you know what John 3:15 says? I had an old friend preacher who would often say "I'm not going to tell you where it says that. Read your Bible until you find it.". This may seem like an extreme position but it is 'textualism' that has caused so much damage to Bible teaching.


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Ron Bailey

 2004/6/21 14:31Profile
Agent001
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Joined: 2003/9/30
Posts: 386
Toronto, Ontario, Canada

 Re:

Hi Philologos,

I do think your statements were a little too strong. ;-) I would rather say that all serious students of the Bible should be aware of the dangers inherent in these aids and always keep in mind that the text is the most important.

I wholeheartedly agree with the reasons behind your strong statements though:

1. [b]Red-Letter Bible:[/b] It creates a false impression as though some words are more important than others.

2. [b]Verse Divisions:[/b] The danger is to think in units of "verses," not the whole context of the passage.

3. [b]Annotated Bibles:[/b] The danger is to equate the authority of the Bible with that of the annotation, and to cause unnecessary dependence upon annotations rather than directly interacting with the text.

Nevertheless, these tools are still helpful for the beginners who have found reading through the Bible rather intimidating.


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Sam

 2004/6/22 14:32Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
3. Annotated Bibles: The danger is to equate the authority of the Bible with that of the annotation, and to cause unnecessary dependence upon annotations rather than directly interacting with the text.

Nevertheless, these tools are still helpful for the beginners who have found reading through the Bible rather intimidating.



Hi Sam
I have been known to have strong opninions on one or two issues. ;-) It is extraordinarily difficult to dislodge structures when they are erected in the mind. You only get one chance to make a first impression. I would prefer to see the plain text and the helps for young Christians set out plainly in a separate publication so that there will be no confusion as to what is inspiration and what is interpretation.

I have 2 copies of my KJV Cambridge Bible. One has no bible-markings at all; not even a extra dot. The second is a mass of joining lines, underlinings and little notes that I have inserted over the years. I use one to listen to what God is saying today and the other when I am studying.

The trouble with saying 'they should be banned' as I did was that you cannot hear my accent. It was not said through clenched teeth, but as a quiet conclusion to my own little reverie. :-D I still think Tyndale was absolutely right in refusing to put comments into the margins and in putting the text into paragraph blocks rather than verses. Of course, not even Tyndale's paragraph blocks were inspired. ;-)


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Ron Bailey

 2004/6/23 4:45Profile
Nasher
Member



Joined: 2003/7/28
Posts: 404
Watford, UK

 Re:

I agree, for example here is a classic example:

1 Corinthians 14:33-34

33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.(KJV)

33For God is not a God of disorder but of peace.
34As in all the congregations of the saints, women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says.(NIV)

Without the punctuation or verse numbers it would read as follows:

for God is not the author of confusion but of peace as in all churches of the saints let your women keep silence in the churches for it is not permitted unto them to speak but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law


The question is, assuming someone read this letter of Paul's out in the church at Corinth, where would the reader have taken his "breath" to stop and begin the next sentance?


My theology may lean toward the NIV stance of split but why in the sentance...

as in all churches of the saints let your women keep silence in the churches for it is not permitted unto them to speak but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law

...would churches be mentioned twice? :-(


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Mark Nash

 2004/6/23 6:59Profile





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