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Jimm
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Joined: 2004/4/27
Posts: 498
Harare, ZIMBABWE

 Re: Mad people?

Miss Chanin,

The blood sugar bit was valid, especially as far as the fact that gluttony is a sin, in this context it becomes spiritual because of that. I believe we can draw many parallels to other sins that may cause problems.

Miss Jennifer

Back home (Africa) there was a superstition attached to “mad people” (as they were commonly referred to). It was believed that they lost their minds after attacking their mothers. The reason I bring this up is that although these people have the same medical conditions, as you would find over here (in the western world) they have been brushed aside as being “mad”, simply because of ignorance (I do not speak with a condescending tone). Similarly, 100 years ago, many people could well have had schizophrenia but that medical term was not available at the time, and they would be certified “mad”.

James



_________________
James Gabriel Gondai Dziya

 2004/6/18 13:41Profile









 Brother Jim

The Bible speaks of that which is earthy and that which is spiritual; thus, we come to the conclusion that not all disease etc etc is spiritual, while SOME is.

How so?

A fine example would be in a broken leg; Last year my knee cap came out of my leg in a fatal car accident when two bikers who were drunk hit me while I was on my way to a Minister friend's church..... They died, and my knee cap came out of my leg and I was bleeding all over the road.

The point?

I may come out with arthritis in a few years because of the surgery on my leg; is that natural or spiritual? Natural, of course.

But remember: God still heals that whgich is natural :)

A fine example of a spiritual event is this:

At the accident I was wearing my Jesus Chain, which held my keys securely....

The Jesus chain went through my body and seemed to go just about into my lung; however, and I have the actual scar on my chest, the chain went through but injured nothing.

The chain went THROUGH my skin and INTO my chest.

The spiritual part?

Not a drop of blood came out the gaping wound and the medics and passengers wondered how this could be so, as I did.

The chain SHOULD have caused the keys to puncture my lungs; instead, God had another plan.

Amen.


Natural and spiritual.


Pastor D

 2004/6/18 14:51
mkonnick
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Joined: 2004/6/18
Posts: 1


 Re: Mental Disorders... Spiritual?

I think a lot of these disorders are really a lack of intimacy with God. The church has been preaching a cheap gospel, just "accept" Jesus. That word "accept" doesn't appear anywhere in scripture. Salvation will cost you everything. We have to die to self centered living and give ourselves to Jesus with no strings attached. To preach a lesser gospel is to usher people into confusion, and cheat them from pursuing the genuine. Instead we spoon feed them cliches and placate them, when we should say to seek God til you burn.

OK, the preaching done... the reason I'm posting is to let those of you with an interest know that there is an excellent book out there dealing with ADD/ADHD. It is called "Unraveling the ADD/ADHD Fiasco" by author: David B. Stein. It exposes drugs that are being used to treat these diseases as the sham they are and gives straight-forward and effective things that parents can do to deal with the behavioral issues. Just FYI.

 2004/6/18 18:38Profile
Jimm
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Joined: 2004/4/27
Posts: 498
Harare, ZIMBABWE

 Pastor D

Pastor Daniel

Thank you for the alternate angle, you too have made me see a little clearer.

James


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James Gabriel Gondai Dziya

 2004/6/18 18:46Profile
DelightedInU
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Joined: 2004/5/17
Posts: 102
Escondido, CA

 Re: Brother Jim

Jimm,
I completely understand what you mean. I've thought about that as well. That they just didn't have the medical knowledge to diagnose, so they just threw them in an assylum or something. But I doubt that there were so many cases as now. I also doubt that this is all just a physical thing. I do think it is some how spiritual. I think some of these are spiritual problems and we are prescribing hard-core drugs for people who don't need them. What they need is God. But we're drugging a large portion of the world and making them think they have a problem. Maybe their problem is the lack of God in their lives, which leaves them open to spiritual attacks of the mind.

Daniel,
I understand your point as well. But I'm not talking about physical injuries, diseases, or anything. I'm talking about mental issues. Maybe like demons messing with peoples minds. But the world doesn't understand what is happening to these people so they give it a name and call it a diagnosis. And then it turns out that lots of people pop up with this "spiritual" problem and the world just says, this must be genetic or something cause so many people have it. It might be a diagnosis, but how do we know that Doctors didn't diagnose a spiritual problem? Oh and that's really cool about the chain and not bleeding. I do believe God can do awesome things like that. Praise Him!

Again, this is just stuff I think about... :-o


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Jennifer

 2004/6/18 18:55Profile
Jimm
Member



Joined: 2004/4/27
Posts: 498
Harare, ZIMBABWE

 I know what you mean Jenn

Miss Jenn,

I once posted a link about a schizophrenic homeless man.I do not recall if I told you that he was schizophrenic but this does fall under the same brow, in a way. I do not know a more effecient way of copying the link, I will write under this post

James

http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=2099&forum=35&2


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James Gabriel Gondai Dziya

 2004/6/18 19:12Profile
moreofHim
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Joined: 2003/10/15
Posts: 1632


 Re: mental disorders

Now that I think about it, there are an abundance of things like panic and anxiety disorders, eating disorders, obsessive/compulsive disorders, etc....

I, myself have suffered from some of these in the past and still have to fight anxiety especially when it comes to doctors and needles and medicines. What I have learned is that many of these things are fears- and result from not trusting God. The enemy has had a hayday putting all of these fears into people's minds in the last 20 years or so.

My first panic attack was a result of a sedative medication in the hospital while I was having our second child. After you have one attack, there is always a fear of having another one.

My daughter has seen my experiance with this and also has been been given lots of info. in a health class at school- all which makes the likelihood that much greater of her having fear also.

I think with all of the talk on tv, in schools, everywhere- that it tends to make "victims". I think it is talked about too much in public and to kids. I tend to think it is better not to give a name to these things or "label" oneself- it is better to refer to it as a "struggle" (as this next writer says).

I remember once going to my family doctor complaining of excessive tiredness and then he continued to question me 'are you stressed?" do you ever feel over whelmed?" I said, "Yes, i have 3 kids, of course i feel stressed and overwhelmed many times." he pushed and pushed for me to try to go on Paxil- an anti depressant. I am just shocked at how fast they try to label you and put you on meds. All I needed to do was lean on the Lord and learn to trust Him. Isn't that what it always comes down to?

Though I am over my eating disorders (stronghold) which was done only through the Lord's help and deliverance and learing to TRUST Him, i still struggle with anxiety a bit. But I have confidence that the Lord will be my strength.


Here is a response from a man who deals with these kinds of mental/suicidal type letters and how he responds biblically:

Thank you for writing me. First I would caution you about believing the world's labels. You said you have "Obsessive Compulsive Disorder, and Major Depression." These are both labels put on by the world. Now before you say that I don't know what I am talking about, hear me out. I have done much research on this and would like to recommend a couple of books to you.

Manufacturing Victims Author: Dr. Tana Dineen
Psychology Debunked - Revealing The Overcoming Life Author: Lisa and Ryan Bazler
How Christian is Christian Counseling Author: Dr. Gary Almy
The Anti-Depressant Fact Book Author: Dr. Peter R. Breggin

You did not tell me you were on any medications, but even if you aren't the last book is a good one to read because he explains a lot about these so called diseases. I know this might be hard for you to accept but these labels do more harm then good, you don't have a disease, you have a struggle. There is a difference. A true disease has a true medical test to diagnosis it, it has a true medical treatment plan and a true medical prognosis. These so called diseases don't. There is not medical test for depression, there is just subjective tests. Let me quote from one of these books:

It is a mistake to view depressed feelings or even severely depressed feelings as a "disease." Depression, remember, is an emotional response to life. (page 16)

Depression is never defined by an objective physical finding, such as a blood test or brain scan. It is defined by the individual's personal suffering and especially by the depressed thoughts and feelings that the person expresses. In other words, if a person has depressed thoughts and feelings, the diagnosis of depression is made. Based on that alone, it makes little sense to view depressed feelings, or the emotional state of depression, as a disease or disorder. (page 18)

In reality, science does not have the ability to measure the levels of any biochemical in the tiny spaces between nerve cells (the synapses) in the brain of a human being. All the talk about biochemical imbalances is sheer speculation aimed at promoting psychiatric drugs. (page 21)

It can become nearly impossible to rise out of depression on one's own-to "pull yourself up by your bootstraps." At times of great despair, people need people. A caring therapist, a loved one, or a devoted community such as an extended family or church can be lifesaving. But when a doctor spends fifteen minutes with his patient and prescribes a drug, the sense of aloneness and isolation is likely to be reinforced. (page 25)

These quotes were all from The Anti-Depressant Fact Book by Dr. Peter R. Breggin.

Psychology's "conspiracy of silence" results from the absence of any established knowledge base in the field. Ten different therapists will diagnose and treat one problem ten different ways. Therapists base your treatment on their view of reality instead of on a proven psychological theory. Theories that are short-lived, conflicting and for the most part ignored add up to bad science. (page 15)

R. Christopher Barden, a psychologist, lawyer and president of the National Association for Consumer Protection in Mental Health Practices, says, "It is indeed shocking that many, if not most forms of psychotherapy currently offered to consumers are not supported by credible scientific evidence... Too many Americans do not realize that much of the mental health industry is little more than a national consumer fraud." (page 16)

These quotes are from Psychology Debunked - Revealing The Overcoming Life by Lisa and Ryan Bazler.

A true disease has a specific, observable etiology (cause) resulting in a patholphysiologic (abnormal) bodily process. This results in physically measurable signs and usually in felt symptoms. For a true disease, the cause, course of illness, and outcome can be predicted. For any specific disease, there will be a specific recommended treatment that can be expected to lead to the disappearance of abnormal signs, the lessening of symptoms and, ideally a cure. (page 289)

Contrary to what the public is allowed to believe, no disease called depression, manic-depression, or schizophrenia has ever been discovered, and no rational treatment for these "disorders" has been devised or proved to be effective. (page 293)

These quotes are from How Christian is Christian Counseling by Dr. Gary Almy.

I am not trying to make light of your struggle, I am only trying to put it in perspective. Man does not have the answers, they don't even have the right questions as these quotes show. Until you understand that you don't have a disease that needs medical attention, you are not likely to come to God for the help you so desperately need. Let me show you a couple things from scripture.

(Jeremiah 17:5-9 NIV) [5] This is what the LORD says: "Cursed is the one who trusts in man, who depends on flesh for his strength and whose heart turns away from the LORD. [6] He will be like a bush in the wastelands; he will not see prosperity when it comes. He will dwell in the parched places of the desert, in a salt land where no one lives. [7] "But blessed is the man who trusts in the LORD, whose confidence is in him. [8] He will be like a tree planted by the water that sends out its roots by the stream. It does not fear when heat comes; its leaves are always green. It has no worries in a year of drought and never fails to bear fruit." [9] The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it?

Notice that God says that those who lean on man's wisdom will never be free, but those who lean on Him will see freedom.

(Psalms 19:7-11 NIV) The law of the LORD is perfect, reviving the soul. The statutes of the LORD are trustworthy, making wise the simple. [8] The precepts of the LORD are right, giving joy to the heart. The commands of the LORD are radiant, giving light to the eyes. [9] The fear of the LORD is pure, enduring forever. The ordinances of the LORD are sure and altogether righteous. [10] They are more precious than gold, than much pure gold; they are sweeter than honey, than honey from the comb. [11] By them is your servant warned; in keeping them there is great reward.

Reviving the soul, giving joy to the heart, light to the eyes... This is what you need.

(2 Peter 1:3 NIV) His divine power has given us everything we need for life and godliness through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness.

Do you believe that Jesus Christ is everything we need for life and godliness? You may not if you believe what you have is a disease, but if you realize that your struggles are struggles common to mankind then you can know and trust that Jesus has all the answers.

Now let me address something that is not talked about much anymore but I believe it is what you need.

You may have read my testimony but if not, I will give you the very short version. I grew up in a Christian home, but when I went into the Marine Corps, I walked away from my faith. I did not quit believing, but I quit following. I wanted to live my way. I did live my way for a little over 20 years, and then God got a hold of me and I came back to Him. However, I had sins that I just could not seem to stop committing. I would pray and repent and sure enough I would go back and do the same thing over and over again. I prayed that God would help me overcome these sins, but it just didn't seem to work. One day I was reading my Bible and praying and I just gave up. I told God that He knew I wanted to stop but that I was not able to. I told Him that if He wanted me to live a holy life, then He was going to have to do it for me because I could not do it myself. I told Him that I was willing for Him to take complete control of my life, because I knew I could not control it myself.

Let me give you a passage of scripture which illustrates what I am talking about: (Romans 6:16-18 NIV) [16] Don't you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, you are slaves to the one whom you obey-whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness? [17] But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you wholeheartedly obeyed the form of teaching to which you were entrusted. [18] You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.

Notice that we are never set free to control our own lives. We are either a slave to sin or a slave to righteousness. That is what most people don't understand. I did not understand it. God will never help you take control of your own life, He wants control and either you give it to Him or you remain a slave to sin. That does not mean you are not saved, it means that your sinful nature is still in control.

This is not talked about much anymore, but it is what the Bible calls sanctification. This is when we are freed from the bondage of sin and God takes control of our lives. I will tell you that I have never felt such freedom as I did when I finally gave up and let God have control of my life.

Here is another passage that deals with this: (Romans 8:1-8 NIV) [1] Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, [2] because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. [3] For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in sinful man, [4] in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit. [5] Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. [6] The mind of sinful man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace; [7] the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. [8] Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God.

Notice in verse 6 Paul tells us that the mind controlled by the Spirit is life! God will help you, but you have to be willing to give complete control to Him. Admit that you can't do it. There truly is victory in Jesus. Believe me I still struggle with temptation, but it is different now. Before the temptation over took me like a giant wave. I would get caught up in it and swept away. I felt like I had no control, I could not resist. But now, it is like I see the wave coming and I just quickly pray that God will deliver me and He does.

I am sure what I am saying sounds easy and in a way it is, but in a way it is very hard too. It is hard for us as humans to let go and give God everything. I know I thought I had for years, but now I know that I had kept back a little bit of control and that is where my weakness was. I am not capable of controlling my life. I am no longer embarrassed to admit that. I now have freedom in Christ and have never been happier.

I have been through depression, I have been through struggles with suicidal thoughts. I have been to the point where I did not think life was worth living, but I have been freed by Jesus Christ. It took giving Him everything, my victim hood, my pain, my excuses, everything.

If you are on medications, do not just throw them away and quit taking them, that can be dangerous. You need the help of a doctor who is willing to help you get off of them. You also (whether you are on meds or not) need the help, support and comfort found in the body of Christ. You need other believers who will pray for and with you, who will hold you accountable for your moods and your actions and who will be there anytime you need them.

This is a battle. Satan is trying to keep you defeated and down. He has lied to you about this and convinced you that you have a disease, you don't. You need to learn to lean on Christ. Your "Obsessive Compulsive Disorder" is wrong, it is lack of trusting in God, instead you are trying to trust in yourself by making sure and then making sure again. You need to let go and lean on God. You need to fight the depression. Read your Bible, praise God, even when you don't feel like it. He is present in our praises. When Satan gets us down, we don't feel like praising God and Satan has already won the battle. Get into the fight and follow your Commander, who is Jesus Christ.

I hope you took all that I said the way I meant it. I care about you and want you to see that God is the answer, but getting there is difficult, but well worth the effort.

Ralph
-----------------------

Here is the site I got it from if anyone is interested:
[url=http://www.behindthebadge.net/suicide/index.html]http://www.behindthebadge.net/suicide/index.html[/url]


_________________
Chanin

 2004/6/18 19:16Profile
DelightedInU
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Joined: 2004/5/17
Posts: 102
Escondido, CA

 Re: I know what you mean Jenn

Yeah, I do remember reading that when you posted it. I thought it was a very interesting story. I do believe I prayed for him too. Do you still see him? How is he? Thanks for posting that, I don't think I replyed to that actual post.


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Jennifer

 2004/6/18 19:19Profile
Jimm
Member



Joined: 2004/4/27
Posts: 498
Harare, ZIMBABWE

 Prayer availeth much

Jenn

Well unfortunately, I do not see him any more, although, at a slight tangent, you may find this story interesting. As I sat and talked with him, one occasion he told me that talking to me was therapeutic for him. I do not think it was anything I said really, but the effectual fervent prayer of believers such as you availed. He actually looked better when I spoke to him the third time. There was more focus in his eyes and he was very intelligible. I think this shows that there is still some savor in the saltiness of Christians and if some of these diseases are spiritual burdens, we have the power, through Jesus Christ, to break these yokes! I will send you a personal message later to elaborate more on this man’s story and my encounters with him. He taught me more about Christianity than I have ever learned from any Christian, and in a way that is kinda sad.

James


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James Gabriel Gondai Dziya

 2004/6/18 19:28Profile
DelightedInU
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Joined: 2004/5/17
Posts: 102
Escondido, CA

 Re:

moreofhim,
I think your post is right on! That's exactly what I was talking about and getting at. You addressed a lot of the things I was asking, but mostly about the struggle with the flesh and the world. Thanks for your response.

Does anyone else have any views about the spiritual sides of things? Or just views in general about this topic? :-)


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Jennifer

 2004/6/18 20:06Profile





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