SermonIndex Audio Sermons
Image Map
Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Judging

Print Thread (PDF)

Goto page ( Previous Page 1 | 2 )


Concerning noutetic confrontation

What are the sources to visit to get more on effective counselling??

 2004/6/20 15:45

Joined: 2003/6/22
Posts: 3318


Long ago, when I was working with Teen Challenge trying to penetrate the many rough and complicated counselling situations which we were confronted with among drug addicts and other heavily burdened counselees we were recommended to read Jay Adams.
Competent to Counsel, 1970
More than Redemption, 1973
The Christian counselor’s Manual, 1979
are three of Jay E. Adams valuable works
published by Baker Book House.
He “invented” the term Noutetic Counseling.

Lars Widerberg

 2004/6/20 16:36Profile

Joined: 2004/4/27
Posts: 498


Hello again!

I must agree with Brother Greg about the sense of eternity in Brother Lars’ statements. It seems that we agree that the word “judge” can be taken in several different contexts. I am not a Greek scholar by any means but reading Lexicons Greek translation there are several terms that have been translated and blanketed under one word- “judge”.

If anyone else is interested I will list the different terms and where there are found, but if not, I am not going to say anything else of any value so this would be a good point to stop reading.


examine or judge
a. to investigate, examine, enquire into, scrutinise, sift, question
1. specifically in a forensic sense of a judge to hold an investigation
2. to interrogate, examine the accused or witnesses
b. to judge of, estimate, determine (the excellence or defects of any person or thing


• to separate, make a distinction, discriminate, to prefer
• to learn by discrimination, to try, decide
a. to determine, give judgment, decide a dispute
• to withdraw from one, desert
• to separate one's self in a hostile spirit, to oppose, strive with dispute, contend
• to be at variance with one's self, hesitate, doubt


a judge, arbitrator, umpire


1. to separate, put asunder, to pick out, select, choose
2. to approve, esteem, to prefer
3. to be of opinion, deem, think, to be of opinion
4. to determine, resolve, decree
5. to judge
a. to pronounce an opinion concerning right and wrong
1. to be judged, i.e. summoned to trial that one's case may be examined and judgment passed upon it
b. to pronounce judgment, to subject to censure
1. of those who act the part of judges or arbiters in matters of common life, or pass judgment on the deeds and words of others
6. to rule, govern
a. to preside over with the power of giving judicial decisions, because it was the prerogative of kings and rulers to pass judgment
7. to contend together, of warriors and combatants
a. to dispute
b. in a forensic sense
1. to go to law, have suit at law


• the instrument or means of trying or judging anything
a. the rule by which one judges
• the place where judgment is given
a. the tribunal of a judge
b. a bench of judges
• the matter judged, thing to be decided, suit, case


one who passes or arrogates to himself, judgment on anything
a. an arbiter
b. of a Roman procurator administering justice
c. of God passing judgment on men
d. of the leaders or rulers of the Israelites
If anyone is interested, I can put up another post, with the locations of the different uses of the words I have listed.

In Christ


James Gabriel Gondai Dziya

 2004/6/20 16:51Profile

Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4792


As some have brought to light, the basis for judgement is established by God. He is the light. It is us men who must search for His thoughts. His nature will always manifest itself regardless of our desires to form Him into our image. I wrote a paper once to illustrate God's ways in terms of judgement. I believe true fear of God comes into one's life as he experiences the holiness of God. Judgement whether through the circumstances one finds himself in or through the illumination of the Word will cause our flesh to tremble, as spoken of in Psalm 119. I hope this article makes sense to those who choose to labor through it.

"I will endeavor to explain this Biblical precept of God given to us in Numbers chapter 14 and Hebrews 6:4-6. In the Books of the Law and the Prophets we are given stories of men trembling before the awesome glory of God. In the New Testament we also see the outpouring of the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost. We see the power of God saving the Israelites and we see the power of God saving the Hebrews at Pentecost. Few generations of men have experienced the glory of God as those who He led out of Egypt and those who lived during the time of the Apostles. When God reveals His glory to man, a very specific biblical precept also manifests itself. This precept is judgment. Numbers chapter 14 and Hebrews 6:4-6 illustrate this precept.

Moses writes, “The Lord is long-suffering and abundant in mercy, forgiving iniquity and transgression; but He by no means clears the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generation.” Numbers 14:18. Moses knows God. He knows that He has been long-suffering and abundant in mercy to him. He also has seen God’s righteous judgment. Moses has just prayed for God’s mercy to spare the children of the congregation. God answers Moses’ cry, “But your little ones, whom you said would be victims, I will bring in, and they shall know the land...” Numbers 14:31. Moses’s prayers were answered. God also declares that because of the men’s unbelief,
their children would, “be shepherds in the wilderness forty years, and bear the brunt of your infidelity, until your carcasses are consumed in the wilderness.” Numbers 14:33. Here again God confirms what Moses understood about God’s nature. Moses knew that God’s righteous judgment would stand.

We learn from this story that God delayed judgment on the men above the age of 20. He did this to maintain the family structure of His people. Their women and children suffered because of their fathers’ unbelief. But God made provisions for them. Their shoes and clothing did not wear out. They had food. God would train them to follow Him throughout those 40 years. He would prepare a new generation to receive His promises.

We also learn, “Now the men whom Moses sent to spy out the land, who returned and made all the congregation complain against him by bringing a bad report of the land, those very men who brought the evil report about the land, died by the plague before the Lord.” Numbers 14:36-37. These men, the watchmen of the congregation, received immediate judgment. Likewise, “So I swore in My wrath, they shall not enter My rest.” illustrates that God also judged those whose carcasses were consumed in the wilderness. God’s people do not receive His wrath. His people are “saved from wrath through Him.” Romans 5:9.

The writer of Hebrews warns, “For indeed the gospel was preached to us as well as to them; but the word which they heard did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it. For we who have believed do enter that rest.” Hebrews 4:2-3. The writer includes himself in this last statement. Earlier, this writers says in verse 19, “So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.” Belief and unbelief is clearly the mark of those who are saved and those who are condemned. The just shall live by faith.

Paul writes to Timothy, “If we endure, we shall also reign with Him. If we deny Him, He also will deny us.” 2 Timothy 2:2. We learn in Numbers 14, that the majority of the men rejected God and all those who are guilty will not be cleared of their death sentence. “Because all these men who have seen My glory and the signs which I did in Egypt and in the wilderness, and have put Me to the test now these ten times, and have not heeded My voice, they certainly shall not see the land of which I swore to their fathers, nor shall any of those who rejected Me see it.” Numbers 14:22-23.
Paul instructs the Corinthians, “Now all these things happened to them as examples, and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages have come. Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall.” 1 Corinthians 10:11-12. All the examples written in the Books of the Law and The Prophets are given to us to meditate on. As I stated in the beginning paragraph, men who witness the glory of God to the degree witnessed by those who God led out of Egypt, also witness God’s righteous judgment. We see that His judgment is swift for the watchmen of Israel. We see that the majority of the men are sentenced and live on death row. The irreverence of men in the midst of God’s glory brings judgment. Let me illustrate this precept in both Leviticus 9 and 10 and then in Acts 5.

“And Moses and Aaron went into the tabernacle of meeting, and came out and blessed the people. Then the glory of the Lord appeared to all the people, and fire came out from before the Lord and consumed the burnt offering and the fat on the altar. When all the people saw it, they shouted and fell on their faces. Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, each took his censer and put fire in it, put incense on it, and offered profane fire before the Lord, which He had not commanded them. So fire went out from the Lord and devoured them, and they died before the Lord.” Leviticus 9:23-24, 10:1-2. Just like in Numbers 14:10, the glory of the Lord was before all the people. Just like in Numbers 14:37, “those men...died...before the Lord.” In the book of Acts, we find a similar situation. Peter says to Sapphira, “How is it that you have agreed together to test the Spirit of the Lord? Just like in Numbers 14:22, “all these men...have put Me to the test now these ten times,” now we see in Acts the same precept. Ananias and Sapphira drop dead in judgment. “So great fear came upon all the church and upon all who heard these things. And through the hands of the apostles many signs and wonders were done among the people.” Acts 5:11-12. Just like in Numbers 14:11, “...How long will these people reject Me? And how long will they not believe Me, with all the signs which I have performed among them?”, so this same precept exists in the churches of Acts. In generations where God is manifesting His glory, the irreverence of man is not tolerated. “By those who come near Me I must be regarded as holy; and before all the people I must be glorified.” Leviticus 10:3.

One may ask, why do we not see the same judgment today? Again going back to the Old Testament we will examine the generation of Eli and his sons. The glory of the Lord was not shown to this generation as it was in the others I have illustrated. “...And the word of the Lord was rare in those days; there was no widespread revelation. And it came to pass at that time, while Eli was lying down in his place, and when his eyes had begun to grow so dim that he could not see, and before the lamp of God went out in the tabernacle of the Lord where the ark of God was...” 1 Samuel 3:1-3. Here we learn that God was not revealing Himself to this generation. The spiritual eyes of the high priest Eli were growing so dim that he could not see. In chapter 2 of Samuel we see that his sons were corrupt, and they did not know the Lord. Also Samuel said to his sons, “Why do you do such things? For I hear of your evil dealings from all the people.” 1 Samuel 2:23. “Nevertheless they did not heed the voice of their father, because the Lord desired to kill them.” verse 26. Eli is judged also. “For I have told him that I will judge his house forever for the iniquity which he knows, because his sons made themselves vile, and he did not restrain them.” 1 Samuel 3:13. In this example, judgment is not immediately carried out as it was for Aaron’s sons. The glory of the Lord was fading for Israel. Israel would soon be defeated by the Philistines and the Ark of God would be captured.

Just like in the Old Testament, the same faithlessness will reign in the
church. “But know this, that in the last days perilous times will come; for men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, unloving, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, despisers of good, traitors, headstrong, haughty, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, having a form of godliness but denying its power. And from such people turn away...always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.” 2 Timothy 3:1-7. Paul is talking about the church in the last days. If these people were present during the times of the apostles, they would have met the same fate as Ananias and Sapphira.

So having laid a foundation of God’s righteous judgment, I submit that the writer in Hebrews 6:4-6 is just illustrating what I have endeavored to explain. God is the same always. He does not change. Man seeks to create his own god. Thus man breaks the first commandment, “You shall have no other gods before Me.”

God always provides for Himself a remnant who live by faith. Even when the Spirit is not poured out on a generation, He has reserved for Himself this remnant. Elijah thought he was the only faithful one in all of Israel, yet what does God say? “I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal...Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace.” Romans 11:3-5. Those who have “tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come if they fall away...they put Him to an open shame.” Hebrews 6:4-6. Just like in the Books of the Law and the Prophets, the irreverence of man will bring God’s wrath upon him. “By those who come near Me I must be regarded as holy; and before all the people I must be glorified.” Leviticus 10:3. God is the same always."

The God of the OT is the same.
In Christ

Jeff Marshalek

 2004/6/22 11:51Profile

Joined: 2004/6/10
Posts: 39

 Re: Yodi

Yea, it seems almost everyone is on the same page, but heres my take on it. Paul judged the church of Corinth, and the letter to the church of Galatia in that it was a letter of rebuke was judgement in a sense as well. I think that the issue is however, not identifying the sin with the sinner. As we know the word says "it is no longer I who do it, but the sin living in me." I think it should be taken into account in a great way. I am convinced that if we approach people from an eternal perspective where we see people as they truly are, instead of the infected beings we all are now, we will be able to point out sin clearly. The difference at that vantage point is that we then see sin as an invading force, something hurtful to the person that the sin has occupied. We know that everyones deepest desire (whether they know it or not) is to be able to give ourselves wholly and completely to our God. Then I see the judgement turning from something that is dark to becoming a light of hope for someone to be able to free that area of their heart that they can finally as they were meant to from the dawn of time, surrender that part of their heart to God and put things back just a little more to how they are supposed to be. Judging then isnt hurtful it is helpful. It is then accountability. It is then when "better is an open rebuke than hidden love" for then the judging as odd as it seems is done out of the dearest love. That is how I have seen it, and I really believe that it is the absolute truth. I hope I got across what I mean... God bless!


John C. Kelly

 2004/6/22 15:58Profile

Promoting Genuine Biblical Revival.
Privacy Policy