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 Judging

Jesus once said, "Judge not that ye be not judged." Fair enough. But what happens when we see Him storming into the temple to throw over the money-changers' tables and to kick those rascals out into the streets? Is the poor Man confused, contradicting Himself?

We'd like to think not, or else Christianity sort of falls apart, doesn't it? Obviously we have two kinds of judgment being discussed.

My opinion, this is one of the most important distinctions we can ever make, and should be something we reflect on every day of our lives. Why? Because I sincerely believe that Jesus loved the money changers without any reservation at all!

Regardless of what we see of Jesus at any time, we can be sure that He is motivated by one thing, and one thing only: LOVE. Jesus brought love into our world and He taught us love. It was the entire essence of His mission here. And if that's your mission, you don't act from anything but love.

But love has a lot of faces, doesn't it? We can think about our relationship with our parents or caretakers when we were young; or we can think of those we take care of today; or we can think of anyone else who cares for us and for whom we care. Doesn't our love -- as imperfect as it is -- take many forms?

Children who see Mommy or Daddy reacting to something they've done and punishing them may think that their parents are angry with them. Sometimes that's true, because we are prone to error. But ideally, we punish our children from love, and love alone, in order to keep them from harm or to teach them how to treat others or to promote any other lesson. Saying "no" is often much more loving than saying "yes" because of what is taught.

This gets trickier when we're reacting to someone that we don't "like," but who we know we must "love." The personality often gets in the way of reaching the ideal, but we need to put aside personality and remember that, at the core, we are all children of LOVE because we are children of God.

I always remember an incredible story of a Buddhist monk who was held prisoner for years by the Chinese (I believe). Later in life when he was freed, he was asked what the hardest thing was about the imprisonment. He said, "They were so cruel, so vicious, and brought us so much pain, I almost lost my compassion for the Chinese." Holding onto that compassion was the hardest thing -- but he knew that for all appearances, and despite all their terrible actions, these people were still children of the ONLY Source of life. He looked beyond appearances, and he did all he could to still love them. Incredible!

Did that monk approve of their actions? Of course not. Today, we may find ourselves in similar situations, if not quite so desperate. I think about the political situation we face, and in general there are two groups of thought: 1) Saddam Hussein was a terrible man and terrorists are terrible people and they all need to be hunted down; the war is a good war. 2) Saddam Hussein was a terrible man, but we should never start a war; George W. Bush is a terrible man for making a bad situation much worse.

Of course there are variations on those themes, but most people lean towards one or the other of these camps. Ideally, though, every Christian in the world ought to be reflecting on the situation -- no matter their viewpoint -- from love.

 2004/6/17 13:45
DelightedInU
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Joined: 2004/5/17
Posts: 102
Escondido, CA

 Re: Judging

I think your right in what you say about love.

Pauls says in 1 Cor. 13:13 and 14:1
These three things will endure- faith, hope and love-and the greatest of these is love. Let love be your hightest goal...

There is no contradiction in what Jesus said about judging. Just because God tells us that we can't do something, doesn't mean that He can't do it. The reason that He says "Judge not" is because this is His job to do not ours. He will judge all people in the end and every knee will bow. There are two different kinds of judements in the end. The judgement of non christians to hell and the judgement of the works that we as christians did for Him on this Earth. We go to heaven, but some will recieve more treasures according to what they did with Jesus.

In the passage you were talking about with the temple. I don't think He was judging them to hell as much as He just had a godly anger. I believe there is a bad anger which leads to sin and a godly anger about injustice. He was angry about these people making money in God's temple. These people were ripping off God's people. It is a place of worship not a place to make money. God gets angry and He still doesn't sin. Like in the old testiment where He gets angry at Israel countless times, and wants to smite them. He's not sinning because His is God and He says, "vengence is mine". It's not for us to take a matter into our own hands. It's His problem. Just like judging.

Also, if your parents do something but tell you not to do it. Are they wrong or contradicting themselves? No. Because they are the parents. They make the rules. Just like God. He's our maker. We're the clay. We do what He says without asking questions.


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Jennifer

 2004/6/17 15:01Profile
Yodi
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Joined: 2004/4/23
Posts: 663
Escondido, California

 Judging, Love, & War in Iraq

Wow... a lot of topics got covered in the original post. So... what [i]are[/i] we really talking about here?

Quote:
Jesus once said, "Judge not that ye be not judged." Fair enough. But what happens when we see Him storming into the temple to throw over the money-changers' tables and to kick those rascals out into the streets? Is the poor Man confused, contradicting Himself?


Well, for one thing, Jesus was without sin. He tells [i]us[/i] not to judge because I think, even as Christians, we're still sinful people. He's not and never was! I think "DelightedInU" kind of already said that in her own way.

Yeah the whole thing on love was cool.

I am kind of lost concerning the thing on Saddam Hussein and President Bush.


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Yolanda Fields

 2004/6/19 13:33Profile









 Yodi

A carefuul examination of the Scripture you quoted from Matthew 7, Yodi, reveals that Christ Jesus (The Only True God) said people COULD Judge; you quote only the very first point of that text in Matthew 7:1-5.

What of the other 4 verses that you didn't level with in your quote?

Verse 5 is quite interesting:

First, Christ says, "Thou HYPOCRITE"

Now, who are we? We are the Body of Christ.

Who is Christ in relation to His Body?

The Head of the Body, of course.

Now, would Christ call His own body a Hypocrite?

This is what the inference is if one takes Matthew 7:1-5 as being adressed to the Body of Christ.

First, this is the sermon on the mount, and in Chapter 5, where the sermon FIRST begins, it tells us that the Disciples were with Him and He TAUGHT...But WHO was He teaching? Matthew 4:25 tells us that He was teaching the MULTITUDES that followed Him, and He began only when the Disciples were present on the Mountain with Him....

Now, it COULD be said that He was speaking Matthew 7 to His People AND the Multitude, or simply to either ONE of the named in Matthew 4.

From Matthew 7, however, I think it would carry more weight to believe that Jesus Christ was speaking to the multitude in proportion to the 12; otherwise, Christ called His own Body a Body of Hypocrites, and though there may be among us those that ARE hypocrites, His true Children certainly don't live like the devil, and a hypocrite is one who lives in blatant and wilful sin while preaching against such living.

Thus, we see who Christ was speaking to when He said "judge not"; He was speaking to those who were listening IN THE MULTITUDE....

Now, that is pure conjecture, and any other interpretation would be conjecture also; Scripture simply points in BOTH directions, though I see more evidence toward sthe one I gave...Though again, I may be wrong! Amen!

Let me conclude by saying this:

For the benefit of the doubt that I retain on your postion of "Jesus said not to judge", I will say this:

In verse 5 of the chapter you quoted from (Mat. 7) Jesus said when the beam is out of your eye you CAN judge.

Read the contextual mesage and see for yourself.

Each verse of the Bible can say anything you desire...when rightly divided, and when properly applied, there can be an entirely different meaning, as in this case.

Jesus DID say "Judge not lest ye be judged"; however, He ALSO said 4 verses later that when the beam is out of your eye then you CAN judge righteous judgment.

This is confirmed by 1 John 4:1, Deurteronomy 13 and many many many many other references which I could include but do not sih to do so, as we should all take time to study OURSELVES to show OURSELVES approved unto God, a workman that needeth not be ashamed.

May God bless you richly, Yodi, and I hope I've cleared some issues up regarding this subject matter.

In Christ's Service,

Pastor Daniel

 2004/6/19 22:37
CJaKfOrEsT
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Joined: 2004/3/31
Posts: 901
Melbourne, Australia

 Re: Yodi

Firstly, Daniel...where did you come form? I read a post of yours a couple of days ago and you were ranked as "just popping in". Man, you sure have alot to say ;-).

With regard to the issue at hand, yes Jesus was without sin, but what was the basis of His innocence in this matter? I know that we can accept this on a "character of Jesus justifies itself" basis, but there is scripture to support his behaviour.
Isa 11:4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.
Isaiah 11 is one of the Messianic prophesies of the OT. So this verse relates directly to Him.
In it Jesus is described as one who "judges with righteousness". In other words, because He knows the intents of the hearts of men, He knew that the hearts of the ppl in the temple, tended toward greed rather than a desire to provide a means of repentance (which is was the temple offering were for).
If we judge, we judge out of a heart that "know(s) in part, and we prophes(ies) in part. (1Co 13:9)". therefore, we are incapable of judging "with righteousness" because we don't know all the facts. We are hoever called to exhort (warn in a friendly manner) others (can't remember scripture reference :-)).
Anyway, that's my take on the matter.

Regards,

Az


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Aaron Ireland

 2004/6/20 2:55Profile
lwpray
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Joined: 2003/6/22
Posts: 3318
Sweden

 Re: Judging


On Judging

A fundamental error regarding the character and procedures of the Living God opens for superficiality and slackness in our churches and fellowships.
God, the Father, is Light – James 1:17, 1 John 1:5. There is no darkness in Him, no changes – He is always exactly the same. He cannot be swayed. He cannot be reduced into terms of situation ethics.
This is a functional statement which must be understood and taken heed to regarding the personality and the ways of the Lord.

Because He is Light, there is a foundation upon which His Holiness rests. Whatever is to be brought into contact with Him, into fellowship with Him has to be cleansed, reordered, and reinstated into a condition which equals the condition of what He himself is. Salvation and sanctification in a nutshell, isn’t it.

Because He is Light, He is able to define standards – Holiness and Righteousness. Because He is Holy, His Love is perfectly safe, perfectly true and genuine. Because His Love is based on Holiness He can perfectly defend and preserve what He loves.
This is the foundation for true judgment. Love without Holiness brings moral slackness, it is no better than humanistic situation ethics. The one who stays with a “God is Love”, will eventually twist it into Love is god according to his liking and personal preferences.

We cannot allow ourselves to choose one single verse in the Bible to for the establishment of our view on judgment. Doing so is poor Judgment. In the letters of the New Testament one finds about 150 verses and sequences about judging and Judgment – my personal count, doing a study on the subject some years ago.
To say that the mission of Jesus on Earth was to establish Love stems from the same fundamental error. The eternal purpose of the Father is to establish the Throne of Heaven for the Son to take and hold for ever – this is the Mystery of the existence of the Church as a spiritual entity in this world, a mystery which the same Church has very little insight into, due to poor judgment.

“You shall not Judge” – You may not judge in a judgmental fashion. This is the beam which by thorough sanctification must be taken out of your eye for the sake of proper judgment.
Ponder this, there is even a gift of discernment, a spiritual ability to produce necessary judgments. The gift of wisdom has to balance the gift of discernment. The two gifts operate where the Love of God is established in Holiness for the sake of Light in darkness.

“Let the word of Christ richly dwell within you, with all wisdom teaching and admonishing one another”. Col 3:16.
The word admonish falls back on the Greek word Noutesis. Noutesis presupposes a counselling type of confrontation in which the object is to effect a characterological and behavioural change in the one confronted. Nouthetic confrontation, in its biblical usage, aims at straighten out the individual by changing his patterns of behaviour to conform to biblical standards. This is Love which brings Light and Holiness.
Lars W.


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Lars Widerberg

 2004/6/20 4:20Profile
Jimm
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Joined: 2004/4/27
Posts: 498
Harare, ZIMBABWE

 Right and wrong

Happy people

I think that there is a difference between judging a person’s actions, and judging a person’s character. For example, if we witness someone stealing, we know that action is wrong and we have the scriptures to back it up. We even have the mandate to correct our brother, and save him from the error of his ways. It is when after we witness our brother stealing and we label him an unrighteous thief that I think we are in error.

Jesus said in Luke 12 “57 Yea, and why even of yourselves judge ye not what is right?” This judgment pertains to discerning between what is right and what is wrong.

Again, he says in John 5 “30I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent Me.” This is also discerning right and wrong.

John 7 “24Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.” Again discerning right and wrong.

John7 “51 Doth our law judge any man, before it hear him, and know what he doeth?” This seems to me to be the “labeling” kind.

John8 “15 Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man. 16 And yet if I judge, my judgment is true: for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me. 17” Again the “labeling” kind

James


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James Gabriel Gondai Dziya

 2004/6/20 5:51Profile
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 Re: Right and wrong

Quote:
On Judging


Brother lars once again I must note that your words have a sense of eternity and heavenly things with them. I very much encourage people to read over your post slowly and carefully. There is a place of judgement in the body of Christ amongst ourselves here as God representives on earth. Blessed is that man that reaches a place in God with authority and wisdom to judge righteously. Church displine is something is very much lacking in this age of Christianity. Another thing that comes to my mind is Richard Owen Roberts that man of God stating that "Pastors have lost that sense of authority in the church where they are speaking the Words of God to people, but rather they trade that in for being chummy with the congregation and loved by everyone." What a drast contrast from the apostles and prophets that were admired and [b]feared[/b] as they spoke the words of God, and judged righteously.

[b]Romans 2:6[/b] - In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

Surely that verse is correct and needs no elaboration but let us take heed that we do not trip and stumble over the rest of scripture spoken by Paul the Apostle. For even peter stated once:

[b]2 Peter 3:16[/b] - As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

Here are some scriptures for you dear people to review and meditate upon and God willing maybe some of us will truly start to see the place of 'judgement' in the body of Christ.

[b]1 Corinthians 5:11-13[/b] - But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolator, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat. For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within? But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

From this verse Paul clearly states a principle that we [b]must[/b] judge amongst ourselves as Christians who are called out of this world to not compromise our holiness and calling with God. God will judge those outside of the body of Christ but we have been spiritually gifted to judge inbetween ourselves.

[b]1 Corinthians 6:1-8[/b] - Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints? Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters? Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life? If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church. I speak to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? no, not one that shall be able to judge between his brethren? But brother goeth to law with brother, and that before the unbelievers. Now therefore there is utterly a fault among you, because ye go to law one with another. Why do ye not rather take wrong? why do ye not rather suffer yourselves to be defrauded? Nay, ye do wrong, and defraud, and that your brethren.

[b]1 Corinthians 10:15[/b] - I speak as to wise men; judge ye what I say.

(*The context is paul speaking to those who are wise of things of heaven and above, christians to christians, regenerate speaking to regenerate).

[b]1 Corinthians 11:13[/b] - Judge in yourselves: is it comely that a woman pray unto God uncovered?

[b]1 Corinthians 11:31-32[/b] - For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.

[b]1 Corinthians 14:29[/b] - Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.


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SI Moderator - Greg Gordon

 2004/6/20 12:01Profile









 Re: Right and wrong

You summed up in your post exactly what I believe regarding this issue, Jimm....

Good word.

Daniel

 2004/6/20 13:00
lwpray
Member



Joined: 2003/6/22
Posts: 3318
Sweden

 Re:



Men, like trees, are to be judged by their fruit.
But fruit is more than moral behaviour.
Fruit is certainly more than a world view and a theology ordered by much thinking.
Character is to be judged by moral behaviour.
But good deeds do not prove good character.
Bad behaviour certainly points out a character in need to be improved.
The one who repeatedly produces poor judgments, poor theology and/or poor behaviour need thorough penetration by the Light of the Lord.
L. W.


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Lars Widerberg

 2004/6/20 14:09Profile





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