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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : What? came the word of God out from you? ~ Henry

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crsschk
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Santa Clara, CA

 What? came the word of God out from you? ~ Henry


[color=000066]For God is not [i]the author[/i] of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints. 1Co 14:33[/color]



[b]1Co 14:26-33 -[/b]
In this passage the apostle reproves them for their disorder, and endeavours to correct and regulate their conduct for the future.

I. He blames them for the confusion they introduced into the assembly, by ostentation of their gifts (1Co_14:26): [i]When you come together every one hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue[/i], etc.; that is, “You are apt to confound the several parts of worship; and, while one has a psalm to utter by inspiration, another has a doctrine, or revelation;” or else, “You are apt to be confused in the same branch of worship, many of you having psalms or doctrines to propose at the same time, without staying for one another. Is not this perfect uproar? Can this be edifying? And yet all religious exercises in public assemblies should have this view, [i]Let all things be done to edifying.”[/i]

II. He corrects their faults, and lays down some regulations for their future conduct. 1. As to speaking in an unknown tongue, he orders that no more than two or three should do it at one meeting, and this not altogether, but successively, one after another. And even this was not to be done unless there were some one to interpret (1Co_14:27, 1Co_14:28), some other interpreter besides himself, who spoke; for to speak in an unknown tongue what he himself was afterwards to interpret could only be for ostentation. But, if another were present who could interpret, two miraculous gifts might be exercised at once, and thereby the church edified, and the faith of the hearers confirmed at the same time. But, if there were none to interpret, he was to be silent in the church, and only exercise his gift between God and himself (1Co_14:28), that is (as I think) in private, at home; for all who are present at public worship should join in it, and not be at their private devotions in public assemblies. Solitary devotions are out of time and place when the church has met for social worship. 2. As to prophesying he orders, (1.) That two or three only should speak at one meeting (1Co_14:20), and this successively, not all at once; and that the other should examine and judge what he delivered, that is, discern and determine concerning it, whether it were of divine inspiration or not. There might be false prophets, mere pretenders to divine inspiration; and the true prophets were to judge of these, and discern and discover who was divinely inspired, and by such inspiration interpreted scripture, and taught the church, and who was not - what was of divine inspiration and what was not. This seems to be the meaning of this rule. For where a prophet was known to be such, and under the divine [i]afflatus[/i], he could not be judged; for this were to subject even the Holy Spirit to the judgment of men. He who was indeed inspired, and known to be so, was above all human judgment. (2.) He orders that, if any assistant prophet had a revelation, while another was prophesying, the other should hold his peace, be silent (1Co_14:30), before the inspired assistant uttered his revelation. Indeed, it is by many understood that the former speaker should immediately hold his peace. But this seems unnatural, and not so well to agree with the context. For why must one that was speaking by inspiration be immediately silent upon another man's being inspired, and suppress what was dictated to him by the same Spirit? Indeed, he who had the new revelation might claim liberty of speech in his turn, upon producing his vouchers; but why must liberty of speech be taken from him who was speaking before, and his mouth stopped, when he was delivering the dictates of the same Spirit, and could produce the same vouchers? Would the Spirit of God move one to speak, and, before he had delivered what he had to say, move another to interrupt him, and put him to silence? This seems to me an unnatural thought. Nor is it more agreeable to the context, and the reason annexed (1Co_14:31): [i]That all might prophesy, one by one,[/i] or one after another, which could not be where any one was interrupted and silenced before he had done prophesying; but might easily be if he who was afterwards inspired forbore to deliver his new revelation till the former prophet had finished what he had to say. And, to confirm this sense, the apostle quickly adds, [i]The spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets[/i] (1Co_14:33); that is, the spiritual gifts they have leave them still possessed of their reason, and capable of using their own judgment in the exercise of them. Divine inspirations are not, like the diabolical possessions of heathen priests, violent and ungovernable, and prompting them to act as if they were beside themselves; but are sober and calm, and capable of regular conduct. The man inspired by the Spirit of God may still act the man, and observe the rules of natural order and decency in delivering his revelations. His spiritual gift is thus far subject to his pleasure, and to be managed by his discretion.

III. The apostle gives the reasons of these regulations. As, 1. That they would be for the church's benefit, their instruction and consolation. It is that [i]all may learn, and all may be comforted or exhorted[/i], that the prophets were to speak in the orderly manner the apostle advises. Note, The instruction, edification, and comfort of the church, is that for which God instituted the ministry. And surely ministers should, as much as possible, fit their ministrations to these purposes. 2. He tells them, [i]God is not the God of confusion, but of peace and good order[/i], 1Co_14:33. Therefore divine inspiration should by no means throw Christian assemblies into confusion, and break through all rules of common decency, which yet would be unavoidable if several inspired men should all at once utter what was suggested to them by the Spirit of God, and not wait to take their turns. Note, The honour of God requires that things should be managed in Christian assemblies so as not to transgress the rules of natural decency. If they are managed in a tumultuous and confused manner, what a notion must this give of the God who is worshipped, to considerate observers! Does it look as if he were the God of peace and order, and an enemy to confusion? Things should be managed so in divine worship that no unlovely nor dishonourable notion of God should be formed in the minds of observers. 3. He adds that things were thus orderly managed in all the other churches: [i]As in all the churches of the saints[/i] (1Co_14:33); they kept to these rules in the exercise of their spiritual gifts, which was a manifest proof that the church of Corinth might observe the same regulations. And it would be perfectly scandalous for them, who exceeded most churches in spiritual gifts, to be more disorderly than any in the exercise of them. Note, Though other churches are not to be our rule, yet the regard they pay to the rules of natural decency and order should restrain us from breaking these rules. Thus far they may be proposed as examples, and it is a shame not to follow them.

Matthew Henry
([i]Italics[/i] extant)

Cont.


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Mike Balog

 2008/3/22 9:58Profile
PaulWest
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 Re: What? came the word of God out from you? ~ Henry

Quote:
The spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets (1Co_14:33); that is, the spiritual gifts they have leave them still possessed of their reason, and capable of using their own judgment in the exercise of them. Divine inspirations are not, like the diabolical possessions of heathen priests, violent and ungovernable, and prompting them to act as if they were beside themselves; but are sober and calm, and capable of regular conduct. The man inspired by the Spirit of God may still act the man, and observe the rules of natural order and decency in delivering his revelations.



I was reading this verse during this morning's quiet time: "The spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets" and thinking how the Holy Spirit is truly a Spirit of self-control, of holiness, sobriety, decency, order, non-confusion. When He inspires our spirits and hearts in the truest sense, He always leaves us the authority to bring our own spirits into subjection. He doesn't posssess us, He doesn't cause us to do or say goofy things beyond our control, and transgress the bounds of decency. [i]The spirits of the prophets are subect to the prophets[/i] (I Cor. 14:32). Demonic influence brings the possesee under subjection to the alien spirit to do its will; the Holy Ghost inspires our hearts to embrace the opposite: He guides us toward a disposition of self-control, of sobriety, and discernment.

Thanks for posting this, brother. A good confirmation by the Lord to my spirit.


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Paul Frederick West

 2008/3/22 10:44Profile
crsschk
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 What? came the word of God out from you? ~ Henry

Quote:
I was reading this verse during this morning's quiet time: "The spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets" and thinking how the Holy Spirit is truly a Spirit of self-control, of holiness, sobriety, decency, order, non-confusion.



Interesting! That is that you were also reading in this realm. The corollary to this that you mention and I like this, [i]non-confusion[/i], was;

Jas 3:17 But the wisdom that is from above is [u]first[/u] pure, [u]then[/u] peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, [u]without[/u] partiality, and [u]without[/u] hypocrisy.

Started in the middle as it were with the title and recognized I needed to go both directions, back a bit (this section) and then forward and on out. Something about the title line just stuck ...


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Mike Balog

 2008/3/22 10:59Profile
PaulWest
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 Re: What? came the word of God out from you? ~ Henry

Quote:
Interesting! That is that you were also reading in this realm. The corollary to this that you mention and I like this, non-confusion, was;Jas 3:17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.



We're tracking, brother :-)


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Paul Frederick West

 2008/3/22 11:05Profile









 Re:

Quote:
Matthew Henry:
Is not this perfect uproar? [b]Can this be edifying?[/b] And yet all religious exercises in public assemblies should have this view, Let all things be done to edifying




[b]ED'IFY,[/b] v.t. [L. oedifico; oedes, a house, and facio, to make.]

1. To build, in a literal sense. [Not now used.]

[b]2. To instruct and improve the mind in knowledge generally,and particularly in moral and religious knowledge, in faith and holiness. [/b]
[i]Edify one another. 1 Thess.5. [/i]

3. To teach or persuade. [Not used.]


[b]ED'IFYING,[/b] ppr. Building up in christian knowledge; instructing; improving the mind.


[b]EDIFICA'TION,[/b] n. [L. oedificatio. See Edify.]

[b]1. A building up, in a moral and religious sense; instruction; improvement and progress of the mind, in knowledge, in morals, or in faith and holiness. [/b]
[i]He that prophesieth, speaketh to men to edification. 1 Cor.14. [/i]

2. Instruction; improvement of the mind in any species of useful knowledge.

-Noah Webster, 1828


It's interesting that the emphasis in this definition of 'edify' isn't on emotion or experience but on knowledge.

[i]"For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding; That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God." Colossians 1:9-10[/i]

Quote:

Matthew Henry:

Therefore divine inspiration should by no means throw Christian assemblies into confusion, and break through all rules of common decency, which yet would be unavoidable if several inspired men should all at once utter what was suggested to them by the Spirit of God, and not wait to take their turns. Note, The honour of God requires that things should be managed in Christian assemblies so as not to transgress the rules of natural decency. If they are managed in a tumultuous and confused manner, what a notion must this give of the God who is worshipped, to considerate observers! Does it look as if he were the God of peace and order, and an enemy to confusion? [b]Things should be managed so in divine worship that no unlovely nor dishonourable notion of God should be formed in the minds of observers.[/b]



Good stuff here, brother Mike. Thanks for sharing this. And thanks for the edifying conversations, brothers. :-) That same bit that you first pulled out, brother Paul, was one that caught my eye.

Quote:

PaulWest:
When He inspires our spirits and hearts in the truest sense, He always leaves us the authority to bring our own spirits into subjection. He doesn't posssess us, He doesn't cause us to do or say goofy things beyond our control, and transgress the bounds of decency. The spirits of the prophets are subect to the prophets (I Cor. 14:32). Demonic influence brings the possesee under subjection to the alien spirit to do its will; the Holy Ghost inspires our hearts to embrace the opposite: He guides us toward a disposition of self-control, of sobriety, and discernment.



This all makes me think of brother Keith and what he says on the subject.

[i]"It's fruit, brother, not gifts, that is the evidence of the filling of the Holy Spirit."
"You can have every 'gift' but be a total grief to God. Seek after fruit."[/i]

Thank you, brothers.

 2008/3/22 16:20
crsschk
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Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: What? came the word of God out from you? ~ Henry

Quote:
It's interesting that the emphasis in this definition of 'edify' isn't on emotion or experience but on knowledge.



... [i]and increasing in the knowledge of God." [/i]Colossians 1:9-10

Great stuff here sister, excerpting the excerpt ...

Quote:
Does it look as if he were the God of peace and order, and an enemy to confusion? [b]Things should be managed so in divine worship that no unlovely nor dishonourable notion of God should be formed in the minds of observers.[/b]



Oh, the times we have failed at this.

The next section, the often hotly contended matters there, can but pray that it might be just taken and internalized, kept to this same understanding that it is towards edification - To build - Not to tear down, not to be put to confusion.


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Mike Balog

 2008/3/22 20:20Profile
crsschk
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 What? came the word of God out from you? ~ Henry

[color=000066] Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; [i]but they are commanded[/i] to be under obedience, as also saith the law. 1Co 14:34 [/color]


[b]1Co 14:34-35 -[/b]
Here the apostle, 1. Enjoins silence on their women in public assemblies, and to such a degree that they must not ask questions for their own information in the church, but ask their husbands at home. [i]They are to learn in silence with all subjection; but, says the apostle, I suffer them not to teach[/i], 1Ti_2:11, 1Ti_2:12. There is indeed an intimation (1Co_11:5) as if the women sometimes did pray and prophecy in their assemblies, which the apostle, in that passage, does not simply condemn, but the manner of performance, that is, praying or prophesying with the head uncovered, which, in that age and country, was throwing off the distinction of sexes, and setting themselves on a level with the men. But here he seems to forbid all public performances of theirs. They are not permitted to speak (1Co_14:34) in the church, neither in praying nor prophesying. The connection seems plainly to include the latter, in the limited sense in which it is taken in this chapter, namely, for preaching, or interpreting scripture by inspiration. And, indeed, for a woman to prophesy in this sense were to teach, which does not so well befit her state of subjection. A teacher of others has in that respect a superiority over them, which is not allowed the woman over the man, nor must she therefore be allowed to teach in a congregation: [i]I suffer them not to teach.[/i] But praying, and uttering hymns inspired, were not teaching. And seeing there were women who had spiritual gifts of this sort in that age of the church (see Act_22:9), and might be under this impulse in the assembly, must they altogether suppress it? Or why should they have this gift, if it must never be publicly exercised? For these reasons, some think that these general prohibitions are only to be understood in common cases; but that upon extraordinary occasions, when women were under a divine [i]afflatus[/i], and known to be so, they might have liberty of speech. They were not ordinarily to teach, nor so much as to debate and ask questions in the church, but learn in silence there; and, if difficulties occurred, [i]ask their own husbands at home.[/i] Note, As it is the woman's duty to learn in subjection, it is the man's duty to keep up his superiority, by being able to instruct her; if it be her duty to ask her husband at home, it is his concern and duty to endeavour at lest to be able to answer her enquiries; if it be a shame for her to speak in the church, where she should be silent, it is a shame for him to be silent when he should speak, and not be able to give an answer, when she asks him at home. 2. We have here the reason of this injunction: It is God's law and commandment that they should be under obedience (1Co_14:34); they are placed in subordination to the man, and it is a shame for them to do any thing that looks like an affectation of changing ranks, which speaking in public seemed to imply, at least in that age, and among that people, as would public teaching much more: so that the apostle concludes it was a shame for women to speak in the church, in the assembly. Shame is the mind's uneasy reflection on having done an indecent thing. And what more indecent than for a woman to quit her rank, renounce the subordination of her sex, or do what in common account had such aspect and appearance? Note, Our spirit and conduct should be suitable to our rank. The natural distinctions God has made, we should observe. Those he has placed in subjection to others should not set themselves on a level, nor affect or assume superiority. The woman was made subject to the man, and she should keep her station and be content with it. For this reason women must be silent in the churches, not set up for teachers; for this is setting up for superiority over the man.

Cont.


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Mike Balog

 2008/3/22 20:36Profile
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 Re:

Ronya wrote:

Quote:
This all makes me think of brother Keith and what he says on the subject.

"It's fruit, brother, not gifts, that is the evidence of the filling of the Holy Spirit."
"You can have every 'gift' but be a total grief to God. Seek after fruit."





Just wondering how you square this with the word of God in 1 Cor 14:1 "Follow after charity and desire spiritual gifts,..."

Following after charity I understand would be an exhortation to obtain charity - agape love, but that does not seem to negate seeking the gifts, and Paul directs them which spiritual gift to prefer, from a principle of charity.

Linda


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Linda

 2008/3/23 11:59Profile
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 Re: What? came the word of God out from you? ~ Henry

chrsschk quoted scripture:

Quote:
Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. 1Co 14:34



Quote:
they are to learn in silence with all subjection; but, says the apostle, I suffer them not to teach, 1Ti_2:11, 1Ti_2:12.



This conversation has really challenged me, and I have some things to ask which I offer up to you to enable me to understand further. I have also spent some time reading Matthew Henry's commentary on these scriptures.

1. Would you say that these instructions only for church meetings in the building e.g. Sunday meetings? Or perhaps mid week house meetings also?

2. If a woman is not to teach a man, then can she openly discuss, perhaps even disagree with what has been said by a brother? What about on this site?

3. What if a woman is ahead of the man in knowledge of the Lord and that man is her husband?

4. Is it wrong to question a pastor on his teachings that may not line up with scripture, bearing in mind that there is so much twisting of scripture and false teaching coming from the pulpit?

5. What if there is no husband at home to ask the questions, since the scriptures command this to be done?

Well, I will stop here, and may I say I ask this in all humility, wanting only to be pleasing to the Lord.

Linda


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Linda

 2008/3/23 15:24Profile
crsschk
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 Re: What? came the word of God out from you? ~ Henry

[color=000066]What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only? 1Co 14:36[/color]

[b]1Co 14:36-40 -[/b]
In these verses the apostle closes his argument, 1. With a just rebuke of the Corinthians for their extravagant pride and self-conceit: they so managed with their spiritual gifts as no church did like them; they behaved in a manner by themselves, and would not easily endure control nor regulation. Now, says the apostle, to beat down this arrogant humour, [i]“Came the gospel out from you? Or came it to you only?[/i] 1Co_14:36. Did Christianity come our of Corinth? was its original among you? Or, if not, is it now limited and confined to you? are you the only church favoured with divine revelations, that you will depart from the decent usages of all other churches, and, to make ostentation of your spiritual gifts, bring confusion into Christian assemblies? How intolerably assuming is this behaviour! Pray bethink yourselves.” When it was needful or proper the apostle could rebuke with all authority; and surely his rebukes, if ever, were proper here. Note, Those must be reproved and humbled whose spiritual pride and self-conceit throw Christian churches and assemblies into confusion, though such men will hardly bear even the rebukes of an apostle. 2. He lets them know that what he said to them was the command of God; nor durst any true prophet, any one really inspired, deny it (1Co_14:37): [i]“If any man think himself a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge[/i], etc., nay, let him be tried by this very rule. If he will not own what I deliver on this head to be the will of Christ, he himself never had the Spirit of Christ. The Spirit of Christ can never contradict itself; if it speak in me, and in them, it must speak the same things in both. If their revelations contradict mine, they do not come from the same Spirit; either I or they must be false prophets. [i]By this therefore you may know them[/i]. If they say that my directions in this matter are no divine commandments, you may depend upon it they are not divinely inspired. But if any continue after all, through prejudice or obstinacy, uncertain or ignorant whether they or I speak by the Spirit of God, they must be left under the power of this ignorance. If their pretences to inspiration can stand in competition with the apostolical character and powers which I have, I have lost all my authority and influence; and the persons who allow of this competition against me are out of the reach of conviction, and must be left to themselves.” Note, It is just with God to leave those to the blindness of their own minds who wilfully shut out the light. Those who would be ignorant in so plain a case were justly left under the power of their mistake. 3. He sums up all in two general advices: - (1.) That though they should not despise the gift of tongues, nor altogether disuse it, under the regulations mentioned, yet they should prefer prophesying. This is indeed the scope of the whole argument. It was to be preferred to the other, because it was the more useful gift. (2.) He charges them to let all things be done decently and in order (1Co_14:40), that is, that they should avoid every thing that was manifestly indecent and disorderly. Not that they should hence take occasion to bring into the Christian church and worship any thing that a vain mind might think ornamental to it, or that would help to set it off. Such indecencies and disorders as he had remarked upon were especially to be shunned. They must do nothing that was manifestly childish (1Co_14:20), or that would give occasion to say they were mad (1Co_14:23), nor must they act so as to breed confusion, 1Co_14:33. This would be utterly indecent; it would make a tumult and mob of a Christian assembly. But they were to do things in order; they were to speak one after another, and not all at once; take their turns, and not interrupt one another. To do otherwise was to destroy the end of a Christians ministry, and all assemblies for Christian worship. Note, Manifest indecencies and disorders are to be carefully kept out of all Christian churches, and every part of divine worship. They should have nothing in them that is childish, absurd, ridiculous, wild, or tumultuous; but all parts of divine worship should be carried on in a manly, grave, rational, composed, and orderly manner. God is not to be dishonoured, nor his worship disgraced, by our unbecoming and disorderly performance of it and attendance at it.

Mathhew Henry


[i]If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord. But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant. Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues. Let all things be done decently and in order.[/i] 1Co 14:37-40


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Mike Balog

 2008/3/23 18:34Profile





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