The "quotes" of men from the past and the historians, etc., don't affect how I see fellow Christians at all.To coin a phrase I just learned from PaulWest - I know I'm "pretty messed-up", but I knew most of these histories before I 'asked' to be a member of a Reformed Theology Presbyterian Church last year.Now go figure - because if we 'must' title one another - I'm a pentecostal/anabaptist.All I know is that it's not about Denominations or Teachers but about the Love of Christ shed abroad from heart to heart. When I feel that - I'm attracted to it. I can't become reformed theology - but they don't expect me to and never asked I do and I don't try to change their theology neither.Go figure - we just love each other - even though we all know about these Histories and am happy we all do for the main purpose, that History is to be learned so that we'll avoid repeating it. AMEN !!!"Love never fails!"
we just love each other - even though we all know about these Histories and am happy we all do for the main purpose, that History is to be learned so that we'll avoid repeating it. AMEN !!!
_________________Mike Compton
HE_Reigns wrote:The "quotes" of men from the past and the historians, etc., don't affect how I see fellow Christians at all.To coin a phrase I just learned from PaulWest - I know I'm "pretty messed-up", but I knew most of these histories before I 'asked' to be a member of a Reformed Theology Presbyterian Church last year.Now go figure - because if we 'must' title one another - I'm a pentecostal/anabaptist.All I know is that it's not about Denominations or Teachers but about the Love of Christ shed abroad from heart to heart. When I feel that - I'm attracted to it. I can't become reformed theology - but they don't expect me to and never asked I do and I don't try to change their theology neither.Go figure - we just love each other - even though we all know about these Histories and am happy we all do for the main purpose, that History is to be learned so that we'll avoid repeating it. AMEN !!!"Love never fails!"
_________________TJ
Brothers, TJ if I might just emphasize your comments as whole earlier, but in part;
As a child I sat through many a sermon that contained low blows and cheap shots directed at Calvinists. You could hear and see the pride in them. The pride that comes from knowing they had not fallen into that poor state of deception like those Calvinists. I have seen many, on both sides, with puffed out theological chests. This is truly sad. Denominational and theological pride is scary at least to me.
After reading an article people say things like, I never knew that. I usually reply, You still dont. You only know what I wanted you to know.
_________________Mike Balog
He lived his own theology at least on that point.
"...as our Christ set the example for; their will be none of these atrocities of 'living our own theology' among us."[b][color=660000] I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me. [/color][/b]- John 5:30(KJV)
_________________Christopher Joel Dandrow
[i]Go to sleep, dear little boy. I have no gold to leave you, but a rich God. If you become a lawyer, I will hang you on the gallows. Some lawyers are greedy and rob their clients blind, it is almost impossible for lawyers to be saved. It's difficult enough for theologians. (Luther, to his son)[/i]Rather liked that quote, thought I would share it.Here's another piece that married even my own musings;[i]People with ideas are our perpetual source of discomfort. We don't really think of Luther much anymore and those who do, don't really think much of him. His monumental achievements are forever subordinate to "what he did to the Church," "what he said about the Jews," or "his insensitivity to women." As Luther might have been the first to ask: isn't imposition of our (dubious) moral authority on persons 500-years-dead something of an arrogance in itself? Alas, it has always been fashionable to dismiss Luther as not quite relevant or not quite nice. All his life he was accused of the oldest (and surprisingly contemporary) Christian libel -- odium humani generis -- hater of the human race: used to such cruel effect in devising tortures against the early Christians. As if to punish the man who did not even want the new Church named after him, Luther was omitted from official histories over 45 years of Communist rule in East Germany. During those dark years, Wittenberg's sole claim to egalitarian glory was a poisonous chemical industry. Today, Luther is eclipsed by the ubiquitous presence of an American civil rights activist. It is ironic in the extreme to remember that Martin Luther King (born just, plain, Michael King) legally changed his name in tribute to a man he rightly regarded as absolutely without peer.[/i] http://www.canadafirst.net/our_heritage/luther/Though the thought to beg off all this and just leave well enough alone, found I could not do so - so easily. Would hate to see any animosity or unresolved concerns just left lying to die amongst ourselves.
"What this thread appears to me to be is an honest and sincere attempt to arrive at truth."And how is that going to be known? Are we going to hold the trial of these men here?If I'm not mistaken, Richard Wurmbrand was a Lutheran Pastor. If after a trial is held here against these men, and Luther is found guilty of (being a false prophet?), should Pastor Wurmbrand's message be removed from the site?How about any of the speakers here that made statements supporting John Calvin. Or John Knox?Where does the investigation of fruit stop?
EDIT: "...isn't publishing these things deliberately harmfull?"I don't mean that brother Christian was being deliberately harmfull in publishing these things, but that the allegations themseves seem to be, that is, deliberately harmfull.
There were many who were bringing forth the break from Rome - the reformation and were always around from the first Church - some just got more attention in our history than others.Whenever there is a true move of GOD to free HIS people unto Spirit and 'Truth', the enemy is right there with a counter or counterfeit move to rob the Glory or thwart the unity of One Body with One Spirit.That is just part of what we learn that I take to heart for our future. Was it Roberts and Lewis and others that could speak to the moves that affected the genuine revivals of the past?And we see in our own times, 'barking dogs and squawking chickens' called "revival".Some are calling what they feel is coming the second reformation. Something inside makes me hold my breath for a moment when I hear that.I see all of the past, up unto what is coming in our future and feel the need for care and discernment to combine all things and have that "test all things" mindset because of it all.This topic is so much broader than about the initial three names in it's title. Even the history of the Church in our own generation.We need a broader scope to face our own futures by what we've seen in days gone by from the first Church until today and then tomorrow.That's what good I feel comes from this thread and the others on this Revival & Church History Section of the Forum. The "stickies" and past threads all shed light and give us wisdom on how to protect the Church presently and future tense.Just grateful for this particular section of the Forum. To combine Revival in the same section with Church History was a very wise decision and I'm grateful.
Do you call yourself a Christian? You will die of old age before you finish reading the horrible deeds done under this banner.
_________________Diane