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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Jesus and his teaching accentuate the end of all killing!!!!

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Mangan
Member



Joined: 2007/4/19
Posts: 161
Sweden (Northern Europe)

 Re:

Eddie! Your exegesis of the bible passages you used are beyond doubt oversimplified!! Let me give a counter example: There are two thieves at the cross - one of them got saved, Ergo: God legitimate the noble occupation of being a robber:-P.

When the gospels mention soliders it is always in the narrative or the historical context. The passages you mentioned just confirms - the power of faith on the one hand; and the centurions realization that Jesus must have been the Son of God on the other. Nothing else is said. If you compare this passages to the overall teachings of Christ - you do not even have buildning-block to create such a presupposition.

Sincerely Magnus
:-D


_________________
Magnus Nordlund

 2008/3/5 6:42Profile









 Re:

I agree w/ Ccchhhrriiissss... You say no one benefits from war, but I disagree.

Jews certainly benefitted from WWII. African-Americans benefitted from the Civil War. American citizens benefit everyday from the Revolutionary War.

This same Jesus, who you called a pacifist, was alive and well from the beginning of time, and He was alive and involved in every event in human history all down thru the ages... including the wars that GOD commanded Israel to fight. You remember those wars, dont you? Where God told Saul to kill every living creature, and Saul disobeyed, and God punished the entire nation for it? Do you think Jesus was standing in a corner wincing as His Father did these things?

I'm not calling Jesus a war-monger. He isnt. But we have to have a balanced perspective on Jesus.

Many anti-America Americans are beginnig to twist and wrench scripture in order to get Christians on their side. They understand that evangelical Christians, when unified, are a powerful voice in this country. So they are making attempts to bring Christians over to the anti-war, anti-America side of things.

I've been to war. I support the one we're currently involved in (tho I have concerns its not being handled properly)... and at the same time... guess what... I'm anti-war! I am against war, and I dont think anyone with a partially operating brain is "pro-war".

But when there is evil in the world, something must be done. Evil prevails when good men do nothing.

No one wants to run into a burning building just for kicks... but when there is a baby in that building [i]some[/i] men will run in to rescue that baby.

And [i]some[/i] men when simply stand by and watch, content to let someone else pay the price.

Krispy

 2008/3/5 7:52
hmmhmm
Member



Joined: 2006/1/31
Posts: 4991
Sweden

 Re:

Quote:

This same Jesus, who you called a pacifist, was alive and well from the beginning of time, and He was alive and involved in every event in human history all down thru the ages... including the wars that GOD commanded Israel to fight. You remember those wars, dont you? Where God told Saul to kill every living creature, and Saul disobeyed, and God punished the entire nation for it? Do you think Jesus was standing in a corner wincing as His Father did these things?



this is true, God is a warrior, he ordered many wars in OT, but that was then, now we are not in the OT days, God is the same, its the method that changed.

our weapons are not sword or guns. Our enemies cant be defeated by those weapons. You cant put a bullet in someone and at the same time bless him. You cant shoot someone and shout "i am a christian , I love you!"

it dont fit.

Jesus said

Mat 5:38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
Mat 5:39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
Mat 5:40 And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also.
Mat 5:41 And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.
Mat 5:42 Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.
Mat 5:43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
Mat 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
Mat 5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
Mat 5:46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
Mat 5:47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.


How can we obey that in a war?



_________________
CHRISTIAN

 2008/3/5 10:06Profile









 Re:

Quote:
this is true, God is a warrior, he ordered many wars in OT, but that was then, now we are not in the OT days, God is the same, its the method that changed.



Ahhh... so you [i]are[/i] a dispensationalist. ;-)

Krispy

 2008/3/5 10:12
Tears_of_joy
Member



Joined: 2003/10/30
Posts: 1554


 Re:

Quote:

hmmhmm wrote:

How can we obey that in a war?




Here is one living example:

A communist officer told a Christian while beating him: "I am almighty, as you suppose your God to be. I can kill you."
The Christian answered: "The real power is all on my side, for I can love you while you tortured me to death."

- Taken from Where Christ Still Suffers by Richard Wurmbrand


Other also:

"In the Tirgu-Ocna prison was a very young prisoner named Matchevici. He had been put in prison at the age of eighteen. Because of the tortures, he was very sick with tuberculosis. His family found out somehow that he was in this grave state of health and sent him one hundred bottles of streptomycin, which could make the difference between life and death."

An officer of the prison offered the young man the package if he would betray his fellow prisoners which he refused. He was then made another offer: betray those prisoners who had turned informants, who were now "denouncing" them, the Christians, and he could have the package. Matchevici's reply is quoted as this

“I am a disciple of Christ and He has taught us to love even our enemies. The men who betray us do us much harm but [b]I cannot reward evil with evil[/b]. I cannot give information even against them. I pity them. I pray for them. I don’t wish to have any connection with the Communists.”

Pastor Wurmbrand says that this young Christian returned to the cell they were in and that he witnessed him die 'praising God'. As he put it

Love conquered even the natural thirst for life.

-Qutations taken from Tortured for Christ by Richard Wurmbrand

 2008/3/5 10:15Profile
hmmhmm
Member



Joined: 2006/1/31
Posts: 4991
Sweden

 Re:

Quote:

KrispyKrittr wrote:
Quote:
this is true, God is a warrior, he ordered many wars in OT, but that was then, now we are not in the OT days, God is the same, its the method that changed.



Ahhh... so you [i]are[/i] a dispensationalist. ;-)

Krispy




I dont know brother :-) depends on who you ask

But in those verses we see that Jesus says "ye have heard". Jesus is saying in the OT you had heard this is the way to do it, but now... "I say unto you". Who says? Jesus says that is not the way any more..... I believe Jesus is God. So when he says something I believe it is so.

and he says when someone does all those things he says bless them and love them, if you can do that wile shooting them thats good.



_________________
CHRISTIAN

 2008/3/5 10:21Profile
Tears_of_joy
Member



Joined: 2003/10/30
Posts: 1554


 Re:

Quote:

KrispyKrittr wrote:

Ahhh... so you [i]are[/i] a dispensationalist.




What is dispensationalist (I'm very little familiar with this term)?

Is it this:

"Ye have heard ...

..But [b][u]I[/u][/b] say unto you"

 2008/3/5 10:23Profile









 Re:

When Jesus said "Ye have heard...", He was not issuing a new law, or doing away with an old law. He was coming against the "letter of the law" and showing the "spirit of the law".

We can follow a law to the letter, the most miniscule detail... and but still be breaking it because we have missed the spirit behind it.

This is what the people then were doing. More or less, Jesus was not adding to or taking away, He was explaining. On the outside they were obedient, but you will notice that Jesus was dealing with the heart... the inside.

Krispy

 2008/3/5 12:03
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4501


 Re:

Hi Tears_of_Joy…

The life of Richard Wurmbrand is a wonderful example of how a member of the persecuted Church took to a life of activism (in addition to love and prayer) in order to challenge the actions of an invading government during the Cold War. Mrs. Wurmbrand’s entire family had been executed at various Nazi concentration camps because of their Jewish race. Both Mr. and Mrs. Wurmbrand faced torture at the hand of communists for their unwavering faith in Christ.

I am reminded how, out of holy indignation, Richard Wurmbrand grabbed the microphone out of the hands of a leader at an anti-war rally at Berkeley in the 1960s. He began to describe his own personal testimony about the horrors of the “Communist Inquisition” to those protesting the American attempt to rid South Vietnam of the invading Communists. Brother Wurmbrand was arrested for this.

Later that same year, Richard Wurmbrand stripped to his waste at a Senate meeting (on Internal Security). He displayed his deep scars that came from torture at the hand of Soviet communists who quietly invaded his nation (Romania). He urged the Americans to be aware of the horrors of communism and to remain resolved at stopping the spread of militant communism.

For the rest of their lives, the Wurmbrands remained active in the aid of the underground Church. They often appealed for believers to speak or write to their Congressmen in order to use diplomatic pressure to free imprisoned believers. In fact, they often included prefabricated post cards in their monthly newsletters. These were asked to be signed and sent to government leaders in order to obtain the diplomatic release of imprisoned believers who were jailed because of their faith.

The Wurmbrands were wonderful examples of using their lives as "living sacrifices" to expose and end the horrors of the totalitarian, communist or Islamic persecution of believers.

:-)


_________________
Christopher

 2008/3/5 12:16Profile
hmmhmm
Member



Joined: 2006/1/31
Posts: 4991
Sweden

 Re:

Quote:

KrispyKrittr wrote:
On the outside they were obedient, but you will notice that Jesus was dealing with the heart... the inside.

Krispy



So if we love them on the inside, we can shot them on the outside? and be "good christians" so to speak?

I understand what you saying brother, but how do we obey sermon on the mount in a war? Americas military or any other. Face to face with your countries enemy's? do we obey clear scriptures? or in a war situation we have another set of rules to go by?

In my short life i learned there is almost always the exception that confirms the rule. Probably so in this case.

can we say it is ok to kill people in the right circumstance? there are times when taking another humans life will not be accountable before God as sin?

if so, can we lie also for our country?

can we steal ,rape and the rest of sins also ?

just some thoughts about this.


_________________
CHRISTIAN

 2008/3/5 13:49Profile





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