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vasilef
Member



Joined: 2005/12/8
Posts: 120
ROMANIA

 Children and church worship

There is a question that never crossed my mind till another brother told me about this.
Please don't give a quick answer based on your experience or feelings.
Please check this question in the light of the Scripture before drawing any conclusion.

Let me write first a small introduction.
I grew up in a Baptist church where as a child I was encouraged to take part in the church service: singing, reciting Bible verses and all kind of other activities during the church service.

But then someone asked me this question: Who can worship, serve and build the Church? The answer is obvious: those who are born of the Spirit.
Well then, as a child, I wasn't born of the spirit till I've been around 20 years old.
Was my service justified? Is the children's service today justified?
Almost every evangelical church encourages their children to have their part in the worship and church service. At least with the occasion of Christmas and Easter.

Should not serve the church only those who are led and inspired by God's Spirit?

Matthew 19
Jesus said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these."

Obviously, Jesus is not speaking here about the children's service but about the free access they have to Him, about their simplicity and sincerity.

1 Corinthians 14:26
What then shall we say, brothers? When you come together, everyone has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. All of these must be done for the strengthening of the church.

This service should happen as the Spirit is leading everyone but a child, unless is borne and led by the Spirit won't really build the Church.
When children are singing or doing something in the church it could be a nice time, some entertainment but not real fellowship and worship. A Christian's child is not a Christian unless he repents and believes in Jesus Christ. These are some question marks for which I don't have yet a final answer.
Have you ever thought about it?


_________________
Vasile Filip

 2008/2/25 7:15Profile









 Re: Children and church worship

When Jesus preached to the multitudes... did Peter and Andrew shuffle the kids off for Children's Church for flanel graph board Bible stories?

No.

When Moses was commanded by God to address the people, did God instruct Moses to address only the adults?

No.

There is no Biblical presidence for removing the children from under the preaching of the Word of God. This is clearly a man-made thing because children in this day and age are seen as an inconvenience. A distraction.

And no wonder. Mom wants to have her career, or the parents are in debt up to their eye balls, so they shuffle the kids off the day care... and then when they are older they drop them off at the Government feeding trough to eat slop (otherwise known as the public school)... and it's a real inconvenience for mom and dad when they kids have spring break and summer break because then they have to get babysitters.

And this disregard for the children is in the church now as well. Mom and dad dont want to make their children sit and listen, it's easier to escort them down stairs to yet another babysitter.

But this is never seen in scripture.

In fact, what we see is God commanding the national leaders of Israel to address ALL of the nation, not just dad. Or dad and mom. We see Jesus sharply rebuking His own disciples for trying to shoo away the children.

And as far as only adults have God's Spirit leading them, this is hogwash. I've seen 5 yr olds being led of God's Spirit way beyond most 30-40 yr olds.

No, there is nothing in scripture that would lead anyone to conclude that children should be removed from the worship service. In fact, we find just the opposite.

I think it's a great mistake to remove them.

Instead, parents ought to learn how to teach their children to behave. Take notes, ask questions, pay attention. I know many who do this (and interestingly, they are all [b]homeschoolers[/b])

And yea, I've thought about it a lot. This issue has come up in our house churches often... and this is where we always land on this topic.

Krispy

 2008/2/25 8:34
vasilef
Member



Joined: 2005/12/8
Posts: 120
ROMANIA

 Re:

I see what you mean.
Of course, I agree that a child can be born again or led by the Spirit.
but when there is one led by the Spirit and other 10 which are not, if they want to sing as a group, should their parents or the church elders encourage them?
However, it's something different when meeting in a home, you know much more about the other people's daily problems or burdens and you can approach them differently.
In a larger congregation it's more difficult to oversee the people.
I speak from my experience: We were about 30-40 children who were expected regularly to sing during the church service.
I wonder now, was that praise a "holy offering" before the Lord? Was the church truly blessed or just entertained?
If the children from your church are singing a song, for example, are you really blessed or you just find it cute or you like it? You have to be truly honest to answer this.


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Vasile Filip

 2008/2/25 9:33Profile
ginnyrose
Member



Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7534
Mississippi

 Re: Children and church worship

This issue is one that requires a lot of serious, prayerful thought. I agree with the other responses to this thread - so far.

I would reiterate this idea: how much is entertainment? how much is real spiritual enlightenment?

Then you have the child himself who is very young, immature and by no means do you want to stifle his expression or involvement. I well remember performing in Christmas programs in our parochial school and what a blessings this memory still gives to this 60 year old lady. Seems to me what you need is balance and this requires the leading of the Holy Spirit.

BTW, old folks, especially, love to hear children sing or perform. This may not seem logical to a younger person, but it does cheer older people. Is it perhaps because the young are not so skilled in manipulating folks like the older ones are? There is an innocence there in small children that gratifies older people, me included and I am NOT old! Some older folks - like young adults - take great pride in their public performance....seems to me the issue here can well be applied to persons regardless of age.

You wanted scripture to bolster our thoughts. Remember how Miriam lead the women in song and dance after a great deliverance when the Israelites crossed the Red Sea? (Exo. 15) God loves spontaneous praise, one that is not forced but rises from pleasure and joy in the heart. This is the challenge for all of us, IMHO.

Blessings,
ginnyrose


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Sandra Miller

 2008/2/25 10:03Profile
Compton
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 2732


 Re:

As we cultivate a keener appreciation for the works of God in our own lives, we need to be careful of getting too religious regarding the grace of God in other people's lives. I conclude that even seasoned saints must still acquiesce to marvel at salvation as a mystery of God's heart. There is both singular perfect holiness that only he can boast of and inclusive big hearted compassion that we boast of---all for his glory. Why it pleased such a perfect God to see we are saved, and how he intervenes for our salvation remains one of the most divisive controversies even among the saved!

For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy. 1 Cor 7:14

I can think of no good reason to ban children from healthy forms of worship just because they show no signs of authentic confession, or even comprehension of saving faith. See it as spiritual apprenticeship that could very well lead to Godly habits and eventual personal knowledge of the Lord.

Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it. Prov.22.6

Blessings,

MC


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Mike Compton

 2008/2/25 11:53Profile









 Re:

I do want to make it clear... childrens church or Sunday school is not a bad thing. I dont think a church is wrong to have them. I just really disagree with the reasoning in the original post about kids and the worship service.

In some of Pauls letters he addresses how churches should be run. There are strict qualifications for pastors/elders, deacons, etc. But Paul also talked a lot about "one has a word of knowledge" "one has a prophesy" etc etc... and yes, it's implied that these would be Christians, and thats true... but if they are Christians, who are we to judge where they are with the Lord? Who are we to set a standard outside of scripture? I'm not talking about the laity here, I'm talking about average Joe Christian's participation in the church.

But let me ask you this... what about the adults in the service? If what Ravenhill says is true, then only 2% of the adults in any given church are truly born again and following the Lord.

What then?

Krispy

 2008/2/25 13:04
vasilef
Member



Joined: 2005/12/8
Posts: 120
ROMANIA

 Re:

Quote:
But let me ask you this... what about the adults in the service? If what Ravenhill says is true, then only 2% of the adults in any given church are truly born again and following the Lord.



It's not exactly what Ravenhill said. If it would be really so it would be more than a disaster.
He said that he doubts that more than two percent of professing Christians in the United States are truly born again.
So I see many dead churches today buy I still try to find the one where God is moving and changing the people's hearts.

you said: "who are we to judge where they are with the Lord?" I'm not the one who has to judge them but I certainly believe that the elders of the church have the right and obligation to judge them , which means to distinguish between carnal and spiritual, between goat and sheep, between false and real.
Can we allow everyone to say anything in the church if he profess to be a Christian? If he brings death in the church the elders should approach this person with love and restrict his participation (public speaking/singing). I think this is not outside the scripture.

This is about the adults in the service.


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Vasile Filip

 2008/2/26 4:59Profile
BVO
Member



Joined: 2004/10/6
Posts: 114
ohio

 Re: children

Good turn in the conversation. If the adult service is Spirit led, and not carnal or soulish, what better place for the children to be. If in fact the meeting is soulish and carnal the children probably will not be a help or hindrance, but most likely will not be helped but hindered from spiritual growth. Unfortunately the church that is soulish and carnal in their meeting, will probably be soulish and carnal in their childrens classes as well. I know that I was supposed to keep this out of the experiential but I think these are kingdom principles as well.
I, like krispy believe that the children go with the parents. I believe as Jesus at 12 was in the temple reasoning with the teachers it would not have been taboo for a 12 year old to be in the temple. This past Sunday we actully had great coversation on the content of the service with our 4 young ones (7, 9, 11, 14) How much better to be able to hash over what was still so freshly taught. When our children were in childrens classes it usually went like "how was class today? Did you learn anything?" There is maybe not a always right or wrong, but I don't think you can go wrong with children hearing a Spirit led message that is tailored by God for all who hear it. Thanks for tolerating my babbling! Lord bless this post, Barry


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Barry Voss

 2008/2/26 8:23Profile









 Re:

Notice I didnt say I agree with Ravenhill necessarily. Nor do I wholly disagree. I was just asking a question to make a point.

Quote:
If the adult service is Spirit led, and not carnal or soulish, what better place for the children to be.



This is exactly my point.

The arguments against children in the service in the original post are not scriptural... and thats my main point.

Krispy

 2008/2/26 8:36
Miccah
Member



Joined: 2007/9/13
Posts: 1752
Wisconsin

 Re:

"Let the little children come to me"---Jesus.


Jesus doesn't deny them regardless of where He is.


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Christiaan

 2008/2/26 9:47Profile





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