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 Re:

Quote:

KrispyKrittr wrote:
Quote:
Without water baptism it is impossible to please God.



Where is that in scripture??

No, scripture tells us what need in order to please God...

Hebrews 11:6 [i]But [b]without faith it is impossible to please him[/b]: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.[/i]

Lets get it right. It doesnt say anything about baptism.

Krispy

Relax, it was a joke.

 2008/2/19 8:55
LoveHim
Member



Joined: 2007/6/14
Posts: 562
Indiana, US

 Re:

Quote:
Relax, it was a joke.

ha ha, you got me man. with the way it's been aroung here lately, it was hard to tell. it's been crazy like that lately.

anyways, have a good one. ;-)
phil

 2008/2/19 9:12Profile
BlazedbyGod
Member



Joined: 2007/8/22
Posts: 462


 Re:

Quote:

KrispyKrittr wrote:
You've asked for a lot of advice... have you ignored it?

Baptism is a work. You are saved by grace thru faith. [b]Faith is NOT a work[/b] (contrary to what Calvinists believe).

Scripture is very clear about this.

You're thinking too hard.

Krispy



1 Thess 1:13 Remembering without ceasing your [b]WORK of faith[/b], and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;

2 Thess 1:11 Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and [b]the WORK OF FAITH[/b] with power:

Faith and works MUST go together. A man is justified by works-and works is what makes faith complete.

James 2:18Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee [b]my faith BY my WORKS[/b]

James 2:22Seest thou how [b]faith WROUGHT with his works[/b], and[b] BY WORKS was faith made PERFECT[/b]?

This is one thing that the Bible is clear on:
James 2:24 Ye see then how that [b]BY WORKS a man IS JUSTIFIED, and NOT By FAITH ONLY[/b].

The Bible is clear that we not saved by faith ALONE:
James 2:14What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? [b]can faith save him[/b]

The implication that James is giving is clearly that faith (alone) cannot save him.

 2008/2/19 11:27Profile









 Re:

Blazed, your exegesis is bad, and your conclusions are wrong. Proof texting out of context is never a good idea.

E-sword is great, but this is an example of how it can be like playing with a loaded gun.

"Faith" in James means "mental assent; an intellectual belief in the existence of God." You can see this in verses 14, 17, 19. The faith that James talks about is a faith that even the demons can have! James was the leader of the Messianic church in Jerusalem and so he uses terms in the same way the non-Messianic Jews in Jerusalem do. The Pharisees and rabbis in Jerusalem spoke of the assertion of monotheism and the mere intellectual assent to orthodox teaching as "having faith." Does this kind of faith save people? NO! And Paul would have agreed. Intellectual faith does NOT save anyone.

The kind of "faith", Paul talks about is "absolute trust; total dependence on God; being fully persuaded that God had power to do what he had promised" (Romans 4:5,18,21). This is more than just intellectual faith! The difference between James' "faith" and Paul's use of the word is the difference between believing a parachute could save you if you jumped out of a plane (James) and actually jumping out of a plane and pulling the ripcord (Paul).

"Justified" is the other word that is being used differently. Paul is talking about being justified in God's sight (Romans 5:1). James is talking about being justified before men (James 2:18). "Don't tell me that you have faith, show me!" James says.

James gives the example of Abraham's offering of Isaac (Genesis 22). He says this action by Abraham was proof before men of Abraham's righteousness: "Was not Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar?" (James 2:21). But James is quick to add that Abraham was made righteous before God some 30 years prior to this event: "Abraham believed God and his faith was credited to him as righteousness" (James 2:23; Genesis 15:6).

There is no contradiction between Paul and James when you realize that the one is talking about justification before God and one is talking about justification before men.

Krispy

 2008/2/19 14:12
BlazedbyGod
Member



Joined: 2007/8/22
Posts: 462


 Re:

Quote:

KrispyKrittr wrote:
Blazed, your exegesis is bad, and your conclusions are wrong. Proof texting out of context is never a good idea.

E-sword is great, but this is an example of how it can be like playing with a loaded gun.

"Faith" in James means "mental assent; an intellectual belief in the existence of God." You can see this in verses 14, 17, 19. The faith that James talks about is a faith that even the demons can have! James was the leader of the Messianic church in Jerusalem and so he uses terms in the same way the non-Messianic Jews in Jerusalem do. The Pharisees and rabbis in Jerusalem spoke of the assertion of monotheism and the mere intellectual assent to orthodox teaching as "having faith." Does this kind of faith save people? NO! And Paul would have agreed. Intellectual faith does NOT save anyone.

The kind of "faith", Paul talks about is "absolute trust; total dependence on God; being fully persuaded that God had power to do what he had promised" (Romans 4:5,18,21). This is more than just intellectual faith! The difference between James' "faith" and Paul's use of the word is the difference between believing a parachute could save you if you jumped out of a plane (James) and actually jumping out of a plane and pulling the ripcord (Paul).

"Justified" is the other word that is being used differently. Paul is talking about being justified in God's sight (Romans 5:1). James is talking about being justified before men (James 2:18). "Don't tell me that you have faith, show me!" James says.

James gives the example of Abraham's offering of Isaac (Genesis 22). He says this action by Abraham was proof before men of Abraham's righteousness: "Was not Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar?" (James 2:21). But James is quick to add that Abraham was made righteous before God some 30 years prior to this event: "Abraham believed God and his faith was credited to him as righteousness" (James 2:23; Genesis 15:6).

There is no contradiction between Paul and James when you realize that the one is talking about justification before God and one is talking about justification before men.

Krispy



The Greek word AND definition of "faith" in James chapter 2:

Faith-Pistis, conviction of the truth of anything, belief; in the NT of a conviction or belief respecting man's relationship to God and divine things, generally with the included idea of trust and holy fervour born of faith and joined with it
relating to God
the conviction that God exists and is the creator and ruler of all things, the provider and bestower of eternal salvation through Christ relating to Christ
[b]a strong and welcome conviction or belief that Jesus is the Messiah, through whom we obtain eternal salvation in the kingdom of God[/b] the religious beliefs of Christians belief with the predominate idea of trust (or confidence) whether in God or in Christ, springing from faith in the same fidelity, faithfulness
the character of one who can be relied on

[url=http://bible1.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=4102&version=kjv]Definition of Faith in Greek in James 2[/url]

What is the very first verse in James 2:1 about faith:

James 2:1 My brethren, have not [b]the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ[/b], the Lord of glory, with respect of persons.

This is the "faith" that all of James 2 is speaking of.

"Pistis is used in ALL these verses in James 2:

Jas 2:1 My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons.

Jas 2:5 Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?
Jas 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

Jas 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

Jas 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

Jas 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

Also I might add: There is only: ONE FAITH, One Lord, One Baptism

The Bible is clear that this faith, is about believing in God" verse 19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

The devils do not give a mental assent, they KNOW that God is real-more so than some Christians-it even adds that they "TREMBLE" how or why would they "tremble" with only a mental assent of faith?

 2008/2/19 14:53Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3698
Ca.

 Re:

James is not saying that you cannot have faith without works. He is saying that if you do have the Faith of Jesus Christ your works will show forth this faith.

Everybody always uses this portion of scripture to validate their works instead of validating their Faith.

"Have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ." Faith is the distinguishing thing in the Christian Body of Christ, for it is this by which man is justified, and hence it comes to be put for the Body of Christ itself. The meaning here is, "Do not hold such views of the body of Christ, as to lead you to manifest partiality to others on account of their difference of rank or outward circumstances or works of a falseness in their faith. The faith must show forth the trueness of the works in whom Christ is, being shown in the believers walk, thus validating the Faith is the Faith of Christ in you the Hope of Glory. Not that without works their is no faith.

Colossians 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

Now with a little help from Albert Barns comentary of the Bible;

The subject of justification, showing that works are necessary in order that a man may be justified, or esteemed righteous before God, Jas 2:14-26. For a general view of the design of this part of the epistle, The object here is to show that in fact no one can be regarded as truly righteous before God who does not lead an upright life; and that if a man professes to have faith, and has not works, he cannot be justified; or that if he have real faith, it will be shown by his works. If it is not shown by works corresponding to its nature, it will be certain that there is no true religion, or that his professed faith is worth nothing. The "stand point" from which James views the subject, is not that faith is unnecessary or worthless, or that a man is not justified by faith rather than by his own works, in the sense of its being the ground of acceptance with God; or, in other words, the place where the apostle takes his position, and which is the point from which he views the subject, is not before a man is justified, to inquire in what way he may be accepted of God, but it is after the act of justification by faith, to show that if faith does not lead to good works it is no faith at all, it is, "dead," or is of no value to show forth the faith of Jesus Christ in the believer; and that in fact, therefore, the evidence of justification by faith, is to be found in good living, and that when this is not manifest, all a man's professed religion is worth nothing. In doing this, he

(a) makes the general statement, by a pointed interrogatory, that faith cannot profit, that is, cannot save a man, unless there be also works, that follow the act of justification, by the birthing of Christ in the believer.Jas 2:14.

He then;

(b) appeals, for an illustration, to the case of one who is hungry or naked, and asks what mere faith could do in his case, if it were not accompanied with proper acts of benevolence, Jas 2:15-17. He then,

(c) by a strong supposable case, says that real faith will be evinced by works, or that works are the proper evidence of its existence, Jas 2:18.
End;



Not that faith without works is "dead", but that faith never existed as shown forth by the works.

Jhn 5:20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jhn 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater [works] than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

The Faith of Jesus Christ as Paul says many times, by the Faith that we now possess, it being imputed to us by His Life that is born again in the believer.

So truly faith without works is dead, it is truly a dead faith that never existed in the professing religeous person who has respect for,"partiality to others on account of their difference of rank or outward circumstances or works of a falseness in their faith.

In The Faith of Christ by His Works in me:

Phillip


_________________
Phillip

 2008/2/19 16:35Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3698
Ca.

 Re:

Quote:

""The implication that James is giving is clearly that faith (alone) cannot save him.""

That is so true, it first takes Grace.

Ephesians 2:4-10 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

In Christ: Phillip



_________________
Phillip

 2008/2/19 19:13Profile









 Re:

Hi Jesse (Luckyd)

I was reading an article by David H. Sorenson and found information about Erasmus, that goes into detail about his later years. Erasmus actually allied himself with the anabaptists, and believed in total immersion:

This is the quoted text:

"Erasmus and the Anabaptists

However, what is most amazing is that in Erasmus's later years, he came very close to becoming an Anabaptist. Though he never joined with them, his theology became somewhat parallel with theirs. Friesen shows that by 1530, his name had come to be associated with the Anabaptists whom the Catholics and many Protestants considered to be the arch-heretics of the sixteenth century. [8] One church historian, Walter Koehler, has gone so far as to assert that Erasmus "was the spiritual father of the Anabaptists" (22). Another historian, Leonhard von Muralt, credits Erasmus with having "prepared the way for Anabaptism and provided material for the construction of their teachings" (22). Friends of Erasmus thus warned him that he was moving dangerously close to an Anabaptist position (36).

Perhaps more than anything else, Erasmus began to advocate baptism by immersion after conversion. Though this was called an Anabaptist heresy by the Catholics and Protestants, it was simply Bible teaching. The third edition of his Greek New Testament of 1522 differed from the second only in its introductory notes. There, Erasmus advocated that Christian youth be taught biblical instruction first - before they were baptized. He even advocated re-baptism for those already sprinkled as infants (45). Moreover, he came to believe that baptism was to be by immersion. In his annotations (i.e., commentary or notes) on Matthew 28, Erasmus wrote, "After you have taught them these things, and they believe what you have taught them, have repented their previous lives, and are ready to embrace the doctrine of the gospel (in their life), then immerse them in water, in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost" (51, emphasis mine).

That teaching concerning baptism is perilously close to, if not synonymous with, Fundamental Baptist theology. It certainly was Ana-baptist doctrine. Balthasar Hubmaier was an early Anabaptist leader. He essentially quoted Erasmus's statement above to establish his own point regarding baptism by immersion in his book of 1526 entitled Old and New Believers on Baptism. After having quoted the above-mentioned statement by Erasmus, Hubmaier noted, "Here Erasmus publicly points out that baptism was instituted by Christ for those instructed in the faith and not for young children" (53). In his annotations (i.e., commentary or notes) on Matt. 28:18-20, Erasmus also went on to write, "The Apostles are commanded that they teach first and baptize later."

Erasmus in Summary

Erasmus is a fascinating character in the lineage of the Received Text of the New Testament. His Greek New Testament, without doubt, was the catalyst which sparked the Reformation. He was a Catholic at the beginning of the Reformation. However, as he continued to search the Scriptures, he increasingly became less and less Catholic in his position. By the time he died in 1536, he had virtually become an Anabaptist in his theology. To his demerit, he never officially left the Catholic Church. However, when he died, it was not in the arms of Rome. Rather, in 1534, he returned to Basel, Switzerland, and two years later died in the midst of his Protestant friends, "without relations of any sort, so far as known with the Roman Catholic Church." [9]"

In Christ Jesus,

Walter

 2008/2/19 20:07
jayyou
Member



Joined: 2007/10/19
Posts: 136


 Re:

Hi everybody,

Please allow me to contribute to this.

I just want to quote a few verses and Hopefully that will help you brother.

I like to go right to the fountain of knowledge.


John 3:5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.


what is to be born of water?

whatever that means to you, you must do it, for Jesus said it Himself, unless you do it, you cannot enter the kingdom of God.

======

Mark 16:16 "He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.


Here it talks about two things. One is faith and the other baptism.


Please look carefully at the text. It doesn't talk only about faith, it also mentions baptism.

++++++

The other interesting thing is here.


Acts 8:35-38 Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning at this Scripture, preached Jesus to him. 36 Now as they went down the road, they came to some water. And the eunuch said, "See, here is water. What hinders me from being baptized?" 37 Then Philip said, "If you believe with all your heart, you may." And he answered and said, "I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God." 38 So he commanded the chariot to stand still. And both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water, and he baptized him.


Why would the Eunuch ask to be baptized?

Why didn't phillip say, it was not necessary for His salvation?

Why was Jesus baptized? did He need it?


=======


and a last verse.

1 Peter 3:20-21 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water. 21 There is also an antitype which now saves us -- baptism


=====

People like to mention the thief on the cross.

I believe that God is a God of allowances, He will judge us according to our knowledge and also according to our situation.

God is a God of mercy and not sacrifice. The thief on the cross believed in Jesus and therefore He was saved, because God is a God of merci, but let's not forgete the verses that I quoted above. if Jesus said that we must be born of water and spirit then why would we run the risk of disobeing Him.

Some say that you do not need to be baptized despite of Jesus said.

John 3:5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.


Dear brother if you are in doubt, go to scriptures and you will find what Jesus said to all of us.


unless there is a text in the bible that says clearly, you do not need baptism, then fine, otherwise, trust the bible and not opinions.








 2008/3/6 16:09Profile
psalm1
Member



Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 1230


 Re: due to scripture i now feel baptism is needed

luckyd, Look at it in reverse.

Ask yourself where is it in scripture that someone was rebuked for no or improper baptism.

These people try to unsettle you to make you think you left something out.

Get away from these people.They are bad news(no pun intended)


Born again plus nothing.
This is the correct position.(as far as salvation)

now align yourself with proven ministries and draw close to them.

Quote;something tells me we dont need baptism for salvation but scripture seems to prove otherwise very much so.



Your discernment is correct,you discerned properly


When they quoted you that dialog between Jesus and Nicodemus,they essentially asked you to make a flying leap with them that water means water baptism.

Align yourself with the very best.
Not those that would unsettle you in salvation.


David

 2008/3/6 21:18Profile





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