| Poster | Thread | roaringlamb
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And Thank you Brother for your understanding in your closing line.
Sister if love cannot reign over these discussions, then there is no need to have them.
I do agree that there are differing Greek lexicons, however I believe Thayer's is one of the best as he looked also at how the words were used in the time the NT was written, and the Koine Greek used.
May our God and Savior Jesus Christ comfort you in His wondrous love and mercy!
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patrick heaviside
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|  2008/2/13 22:42 | Profile | LoveHim
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Choose ye this day whom you will serve"
Just as I pointed out to krispy, this is spoken to God's people, and not to the unbelieving nations around them. Thus to apply this to all unsaved people as a means of a so called "free will" is not good Biblical stewardship.
brother roaringlamb, i have been mulling this type of statement over in my mind for a couple of weeks now and i find this statement about the people in the old testament wanting.
the basic difference between us (NT believers) and them (OT believers) is that we have the Spirit of God dwelling within us right? yet to these men (OT believers), God commands them to repent, choose Him, forsake their sin and idols, follow hard after Him.
you object and say "yea but that was to israel or to the believing jews", but that has absolutely no bearing on the scripture brother. did God create the jews differently than the other people? if so, then why did some gentile people become jews and become part of israel (ruth comes to mind). (remember that some foreigners [gentiles] became jews as well). so the statement that only jews could follow His commands is wrong.
the problem you have when reading the old testament is that you have to justify and try to excuse why God commanded them to do so many things (like repent, choose, forsake, etc) that he still commands all men today.
all i know is that your statement about the OT and it being to God's people so they can do it is not scriptural and is found wanting.
sorry to interject, it's just been on my mind for a couple of weeks now.
phil |
| | 2008/2/14 8:30 | Profile | hmmhmm
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Joined: 2006/1/31
Posts: 4994
Sweden
| | Re: | | Quote:
roaringlamb wrote:
Quote:
And Thank you Brother for your understanding in your closing line.
Sister if love cannot reign over these discussions, then there is no need to have them.
I do agree that there are differing Greek lexicons, however I believe Thayer's is one of the best as he looked also at how the words were used in the time the NT was written, and the Koine Greek used.
May our God and Savior Jesus Christ comfort you in His wondrous love and mercy!
some side info; Thayer did not believe in the trinity and some of his work reflects that. Can be a "good to know" thing.
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CHRISTIAN
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| | 2008/2/14 9:53 | Profile | roaringlamb
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Santa Cruz California
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the basic difference between us (NT believers) and them (OT believers) is that we have the Spirit of God dwelling within us right? yet to these men (OT believers), God commands them to repent, choose Him, forsake their sin and idols, follow hard after Him.
Yet the Scriptures state clearly that there is none righteous, none that seek God etc.
So, the command does not indicate ability to do.
Were there people filled with the Spirit in the OT? Let's look-
Gen 41:38 And Pharaoh said unto his servants, [b]Can we find such a one as this is, a man in whom the Spirit of God is?[/b]
Gen 41:39 And Pharaoh said unto Joseph, Forasmuch as God hath shewed thee all this, there is none so discreet and wise as thou art:
Exo 28:3 And [b]thou shalt speak unto all that are wise hearted, whom I have filled with the spirit of wisdom[/b], that they may make Aaron's garments to consecrate him, that he may minister unto me in the priest's office.
Exo 31:2 See, I have called by name Bezaleel the son of Uri, the son of Hur, of the tribe of Judah:
Exo 31:3 And [b]I have filled him with the spirit of God[/b], in wisdom, and in understanding, and in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship
Exo 35:21 And they came, [b]every one whose heart stirred him up, and every one whom his spirit made willing[/b], and they brought the LORD'S offering to the work of the tabernacle of the congregation, and for all his service, and for the holy garments.
Num 11:24 And Moses went out, and told the people the words of the LORD, and gathered the seventy men of the elders of the people, and set them round about the tabernacle.
Num 11:25 And the LORD came down in a cloud, and spake unto him, [b]and took of the spirit that was upon him, and gave it unto the seventy elders: and it came to pass, that, when the spirit rested upon them, they prophesied, and did not cease.[/b]
Num 24:2 And Balaam lifted up his eyes, and he saw Israel abiding in his tents according to their tribes; [b]and the spirit of God came upon him.[/b]
Num 27:18 And the LORD said unto Moses, Take thee Joshua the son of Nun, [b]a man in whom is the spirit[/b], and lay thine hand upon him;
Jdg 3:9 And when the children of Israel cried unto the LORD, the LORD raised up a deliverer to the children of Israel, who delivered them, even Othniel the son of Kenaz, Caleb's younger brother.
Jdg 3:10 [b]And the Spirit of the LORD came upon him[/b], and he judged Israel, and went out to war: and the LORD delivered
Jdg 6:34 But [b]the Spirit of the LORD came upon Gideon[/b], and he blew a trumpet; and Abiezer was gathered after him.
Jdg 11:29 Then [b]the Spirit of the LORD came upon Jephthah, and he passed over Gilead, and Manasseh, and passed over Mizpeh of Gilead, and from Mizpeh of Gilead he passed over unto the children of Ammon.
Jdg 13:24 And the woman bare a son, and called his name Samson: and the child grew, and the LORD blessed him.
Jdg 13:25 [b]And the Spirit of the LORD began to move him[/b] at times in the camp of Dan between Zorah and Eshtaol.
Jdg 14:5 Then went Samson down, and his father and his mother, to Timnath, and came to the vineyards of Timnath: and, behold, a young lion roared against him.
Jdg 14:6 [b]And the Spirit of the LORD came mightily upon him[/b], and he rent him as he would have rent a kid, and he had nothing in his hand: but he told not his father or his mother what he had done.
To Saul-
1Sa 10:6 And [b]the Spirit of the LORD will come upon thee[/b], and thou shalt prophesy with them, and shalt be turned into another man.
1Sa 10:10 And when they came thither to the hill, behold, a company of prophets met him; and [b]the Spirit of God came upon him[/b], and he prophesied among them.
1Sa 11:6 And [b]the Spirit of God came upon Saul[/b] when he heard those tidings, and his anger was kindled greatly.
1Sa 16:13 Then Samuel took the horn of oil, and anointed him in the midst of his brethren: and [b]the Spirit of the LORD came upon David[/b] from that day forward. So Samuel rose up, and went to Ramah.
Brother I could go on, but I think this proves that there were indeed people who had the Spirit in the OT, and He was given to them to work for God.
Now of course, the Spirit is not limited to only Israel the nation, but to Israel the Church.
And again, we must learn to interpret the OT through the NT, so if Paul writes that all are dead, than that also includes those that we read of in the OT. We cannot disprove the NT and its teachings of man's inability by going back to the types and shadows of the OT.
Quote:
(remember that some foreigners [gentiles] became jews as well)
And these had to follow God's rules for His covenant people, but this does not prove ability or free will to come to God. It does show the greatness of God's mercy though.
Quote:
all i know is that your statement about the OT and it being to God's people so they can do it is not scriptural and is found wanting.
Really? Were the dietary and ceremonial laws given to the Philistines? or the Amalekites? to the Americans?
No, they were specifically given to Israel alone. The OT is predominantly about God's promises to His people Israel to bring a Messiah that would be a "light to the Gentiles", and One who would bear the iniquities of His people.
There is nothing "wanting" brother, again, we are victims of tradition, and bad teaching, and sadly this causes us to come to Scripture with a preconceived idea about what it must mean. Like the idea that the Holy Spirit was not in people in the OT ;-)
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patrick heaviside
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| | 2008/2/14 11:59 | Profile | roaringlamb
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some side info; Thayer did not believe in the trinity and some of his work reflects that. Can be a "good to know" thing.
Yes, but his command of Greek is worthy of admiration. I'd also like to see some proof(not that I don't trust you, but alot of times people say things that are unfounded only because they dislike the person or their theology)
See, most of us would disagree with Erasmus, but his Greek NT was one of the main sources for the KJV, Tyndale, and Geneva Bibles.
A man doesn't have to be a Christian to interpret words. He should be one if interpreting Scripture, but who knows?
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patrick heaviside
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| | 2008/2/14 12:02 | Profile | hmmhmm
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roaringlamb wrote:
Quote:
some side info; Thayer did not believe in the trinity and some of his work reflects that. Can be a "good to know" thing.
Yes, but his command of Greek is worthy of admiration. I'd also like to see some proof(not that I don't trust you, but alot of times people say things that are unfounded only because they dislike the person or their theology)
See, most of us would disagree with Erasmus, but his Greek NT was one of the main sources for the KJV, Tyndale, and Geneva Bibles.
A man doesn't have to be a Christian to interpret words. He should be one if interpreting Scripture, but who knows?
well you are right brother, i do own Thayers myself and use it often, its just one of those things that can be good to know, that Thayer if i remember correctly, i will try look and see if i find some source for you. But if i remember correctly Thayer saw the Holy Spirit as a "force/power" rather then the traditional view, But i dont want to discredit his whole work, absolutely not. As for his theology i dont know that much what and where he stands. I do find his work very useful. And i would recomend it to anyone any day.
but as i said and have read, its a good thing to know :-)
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CHRISTIAN
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| | 2008/2/14 12:21 | Profile | LoveHim
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Indiana, US
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Brother I could go on, but I think this proves that there were indeed people who had the Spirit in the OT, and He was given to them to work for God.
come on brother, i think you'll agree with me that the OT believers did not all have the living God within them, dwelling and making His abode in them. let's be reasonable my friend. they were not all filled with the Spirit.Quote:
And these had to follow God's rules for His covenant people, but this does not prove ability or free will to come to God. It does show the greatness of God's mercy though.
what i was talking to you about was your comment that the "choose this day whom you will serve" doesn't work because it was written to God's people. but that doesn't make sense since someone foreigner could convert and become a jew and choose God. (your comment was that the gentiles couldn't, but the jews could because they were God's people). Quote:
Really? Were the dietary and ceremonial laws given to the Philistines? or the Amalekites? to the Americans?
were we even talking about dietary laws brother?? i was talking about choosing Him, forsaking sin, following hard after Him.Quote:
The OT is predominantly about God's promises to His people Israel to bring a Messiah that would be a "light to the Gentiles", and One who would bear the iniquities of His people.
i will agree with almost all this, except isaiah 53:6 says that "we ALL have gone astray, we have turned, every one, to his own way; and the LORD has laid on Him the iniquity of us ALL". (please don't say that ALL-mankind have sinned, but God laid on Him the sin of ALL-of all kinds of people).
love talking to you man.:-)
phil |
| | 2008/2/14 14:19 | Profile |
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