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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Is God the creator / author of sin?

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jgraves11
Member



Joined: 2008/1/26
Posts: 55
Munford, TN

 Re:

Good job roaringlamb,

you posted right before I did, I guess


_________________
John Graves

 2008/2/12 14:11Profile









 Re:

Quote:
He created us therefore He can do with us what He wants. I think the best explanation of this mind boggling doctrine is found in Wayne Grudem's Systematic Theology book. He basically says that even though God ordains things to happen, the person who does those things is still responsible.



To quote Mr. Spock... "Thats highly illogical, Captain".

So much for "Come, let is reason together" (another quote, this time from God).

Brother, what you said defies logic, but I know what comes next... "it's part of the mystery of God". Thats where the conversation usually ends up with Calvinists.

It's no different than a dog chasing his tail, or debating scripture with JW's or Mormons with their redefining of words and terms... instead of just plainly reading scripture and letting it speak... as a whole... and in context.

Krispy

 2008/2/12 14:26
jgraves11
Member



Joined: 2008/1/26
Posts: 55
Munford, TN

 Re:

Quote:
To quote Mr. Spock... "Thats highly illogical, Captain".



Actually it is perfectly logical. If you create a pot then crush it, are you held to any kind of responsiblity for what you did with it? Could you not create a peice of pottery for the simple purpose of displaying your wrath?

Romans 919 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For zwho can resist his will?” 20 But who are you, O man, ato answer back to God? bWill what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 cHas the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump done vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience evessels of wrath fprepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known gthe riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he hhas prepared beforehand for glory—
The Holy Bible : English standard version. 2001 (Ro 9:19-23). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society.

That is my interpretation of this particular passage. If you have a different one that is fine.


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John Graves

 2008/2/12 14:30Profile
roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

Quote:
Brother, what you said defies logic,



And God becoming a man doesn't?

Christ coming to us in the bread and wine of communion doesn't seem a bit illogical to you?

Better yet-
A holy God saving unholy people by dying for them instead of giving them what they deserve.

That is not logical at all, but thank God it is true!!!


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patrick heaviside

 2008/2/12 14:33Profile
tjservant
Member



Joined: 2006/8/25
Posts: 1658
Indiana USA

 Re:

Quote:

jgraves11 wrote:
tj,

I think it is would be best to say that God is not held accountable by the same standards that we are. He created us therefore He can do with us what He wants. I think the best explanation of this mind boggling doctrine is found in Wayne Grudem's Systematic Theology book. He basically says that even though God ordains things to happen, the person who does those things is still responsible.

For example, Judas Iscariot was responsbile for his betrayal of Christ, but God ordained it did he not? What about Pilot and the jews? Look at Acts 4 down around verse 23
When they were released, they went to their friends and reported what the chief priests and the elders had said to them. 24 And when they heard it, they lifted their voices ptogether to God and said, “Sovereign Lord, qwho made the heaven and the earth and the sea and everything in them, 25 who through the mouth of our father David, your servant,3 said by the Holy Spirit,
r“ ‘Why did the Gentiles rage,
and the peoples plot in vain?
26 The kings of the earth set themselves,
and sthe rulers were gathered together,
against the Lord and against his tAnointed’4—
27 for truly in this city there were gathered together against your uholy servant Jesus, vwhom you anointed, both wHerod and xPontius Pilate, along ywith the Gentiles and zthe peoples of Israel, 28 ato do whatever your hand and byour plan had predestined to take place. 29 And now, Lord, clook upon their threats and grant to your servants5 to continue to sp
The Holy Bible : English standard version. 2001 (Ac 4:23-29). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society.



Thank you brother.


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TJ

 2008/2/12 14:56Profile









 Re:

Quote:
Yea... I thought so. 41 people have read this and no one wants to step up and answer this question for me.

Ah Krispy, I love your humour!!

Ok on to the question. I have to honestly say YES and NO.

NO God didn't create sin, sin is a result of disobedience.

YES God created evil, because He created a tree that was both Good and Evil.

He created Light and Darkness. These were separate from the creation of the Sun and the Moon. The first day didn't have a Sun or a Moon, those were created on the 4 day.

 2008/2/12 15:41









 Re:

Quote:
And God becoming a man doesn't?



God created man... so it makes sense that He can also become one.

Quote:
Christ coming to us in the bread and wine of communion doesn't seem a bit illogical to you?



He doesnt come to us in the bread and the wine of communion. Communion is symbolic of Him, meant to be done in remembarence of Him. There is nothing supernatural about communion. My apologies to any Catholics or Lutherans, or other "Catholic Lite" denominations... but it's true.

Quote:
A holy God saving unholy people by dying for them instead of giving them what they deserve.



In light of God's love and mercy, no it's not illogical at all. The best example I have is my relationship with my children. There are times I could hang them out to dry... but I dont... because of love and mercy. Makes perfect sense to me.

Krispy

 2008/2/12 15:45
tjservant
Member



Joined: 2006/8/25
Posts: 1658
Indiana USA

 Re:

Quote:
"it's part of the mystery of God". Thats where the conversation usually ends up with Calvinists.



I will not “name drop”, but one could easily compile a very long list of prominent Arminians who have said, and do say, this very thing.

This is definitely not a Calvinism exclusive.

It would seem that many have come to the conclusion that there are simply parts of God that are above our understanding.

Why is it not Okay to simply say…”we just don’t have it all completely figured out?”

** edit 4 spelling **


_________________
TJ

 2008/2/12 15:54Profile
hmmhmm
Member



Joined: 2006/1/31
Posts: 4994
Sweden

 Re:


i always found this "A dialogue between a predestinarian and his friend" interesting.... also it is nice with the references so one can go do deeper study


FRIEND. -- SIR, I have heard that you make God the author of all sin, and
the destroyer of the greater part of mankind without mercy.

PREDESTINARIAN. -- I deny it; I only say, "God did from all eternity
unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass." (Assembly's Catechism,
chap. 3.)

Friend. -- Do you make no exception?

Pred. -- No, surely; for "nothing is more absurd than to think anything at
all is done but by the ordination of God." (Calvin's Institutes, book 1.,
chap. 16, sect. 3.)

Friend. -- Do you extend this to the actions of men?

Pred. -- Without doubt: "Every action and motion of every creature is so
governed by the hidden counsel of God, that nothing can come to pass, but
what was ordained by him." (Ibid., sect. 3.)

Friend. -- But what then becomes of the wills of men?

Pred. -- "The wills of men are so governed by the will of God, that they
are carried on straight to the mark which he has fore-ordained." (Ibid., sect.
8.)

Friend. -- I suppose you mean the permissive will of God?

Pred. -- No: I mean, "all things come to pass by the efficacious and
irresistible will of God." (Twissi Vindiciae Gratiae Potestatis &
Providentiae Dei. Editio Jensoniana, par. 3, p. 19.)

Friend. -- Why, then, all men must do just what they do?

Pred. -- True: "It is impossible that anything should ever be done, but
that to which God impels the will of man." (Ibid., p. 19.)

Friend. -- But does not this imply the necessity of all events?

Pred. -- "I will not scruple to own that the will of God lays a necessity
on all things, and that everything he wills necessarily comes to pass."
(Calvin's Inst., b. 3, c. 24, sec. 8.)

Friend. -- Does sin then necessarily come to pass?
Pred. -- Undoubtedly: For "the almighty power of God extends itself to
the first fall, and all other sins of angels and men." (Assembly's Catechism,
c. 5.)

Friend. -- I grant, God foresaw the first man would fall.

Pred. -- Nay, "God not only foresaw that Adam would fall, but also
ordained that he should." (Calvin's Inst., b. 3, c. 23, sec. 7.)

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=20964&forum=34&2]The rest of this interesting conversation[/url]


_________________
CHRISTIAN

 2008/2/12 16:06Profile









 Re:

Quote:
Why is [it] not Okay to simply say…”we just don’t have it all completely figured out?”

That should be everyone's testimony. For example, I study preterism. I don't have all the answers because I am still studying, I don't have it all figured out yet.

When I first got saved, I lived under a cloud of condemnation, for years I didn't understand the grace of God or how to rest in His love, Why?? Because I didn't have it all figured out yet. I still don't, but I am so grateful for that grace today, and that I can rest in that assurance that He loves me and wants me.

If we had it all together and we knew it all, we would be God. The word of God is unsearchable, just when you think you've closed the book on a subject another door is opened to more realities. As He is eternal so is His word.

 2008/2/12 16:06





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