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 Re:

Nile,

Just to comment on your excellent post :

1. The scriptures never explicitly say a person must believe Jesus is God to be saved. The best there is are inferences.

[i][b][color=330099]
You are correct. Given that, it amazes me that some have been burned for this 'crime'. [/color][/b][/i]


2. The scriputres never explicitly say that Jesus is God. Verses like Titus 2:13 are hotly debated on the correct translation (look up "granville sharp's rule"). Verses like "My Lord, my God" are not declarations that Jesus is God - that view must be infered from the verses.

[i][b][color=330099]Nile, again ... you are correct. Many of these verses have been doctored by the 'orthodox'. After many years of searching this subject out with the 'blinkers off', I have come the conclusion that there is no evidence for the godman doctrine.[/color][/b][/i]

3. The apostles and disciples never explicitly teach the doctrine that Jesus is God. You will find no discourse on the divinity of Jesus and the importance of believing in this doctrine. If it is not worhty of a single paragraph in the whole of Paul's writtings, why do people advocate it so strongly? (We see many paragraphs on who Jesus was, but simply no paragraphs on the fact that he was God.)

[i][b][color=003399]Excellent point Nile. It always amazes me that Paul, a Pharisee, who would have strongly believed in the Oneness of God would so casually have moved over to believing that God was 3 in 1 or 1 in 3. These Jewish people had for so long resisted the pagan godman, trinity myths, (to the point of giving there lives for it). You would think that Paul, in trying to convince them would have at least given a single paragraph in the scriptures to this!!! However, there is not a single mention that the SHEMA (God is ONE), has changed and the God is now three in one)... and yet Christianity has based it's entire standing on this ... astounding.[/color][/b][/i]

4. Everyone should realize that Sharon has studied these topics for some years now. Simply quoting John 1:1 or Titus 2:13 isn't going to rock her boat. You'll have to formulate your arguments much more precisely than that, and be ready to defend every point you make.

[i][b][color=330099]Nile, I haven't been on the board for long. However, from what i've seen of Sharon's posts, I see one who has a lot of depth ... and sincerity to boot. Unlike some of the attack hounds I see knipping at her heels. ( anyway, I guess she's gone now :-( . I trust these little 'attack poodles' (quote from her post) are happy now. In my opinion, it is our loss.)[/color][/b][/i]

5. I think those who said they cannot learn anything from Sharon should strongly reconsider that statement. If nothing else you can learn how to respectfully, courteously, and intelligently discuss a topic (not to say that no one else is doing these things).

[i][b][color=330099]I agree.[/color][/b][/i]

6. This topic was not about the deity of Jesus but on the keeping of the Sabbath (and the deeper issure of following the Law).





 2008/2/14 21:51
Lowly
Member



Joined: 2007/10/13
Posts: 41


 Re:

"Well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias the prophet unto our fathers, 26Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive: 27For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them." Acts 28: 25-27 :-(

In His amazing love,
Lowly
_______________________________________
Learn of Me for I am meek and lowly of heart........

 2008/2/14 22:42Profile
Miccah
Member



Joined: 2007/9/13
Posts: 1752
Wisconsin

 Re:

Quote:
Everyone should realize that Sharon has studied these topics for some years now. Simply quoting John 1:1 or Titus 2:13 isn't going to rock her boat. You'll have to formulate your arguments much more precisely than that, and be ready to defend every point you make.




Actually, the burden of proof lies on those who wish to teach something that IS unscriptual, expecially if they are professing to be a Christian. If someone professes to be a Christian, then it IS the Churches responsibility to point out errors and help to guide those in error to correction. If those in error do not take heed to sound doctrine and teaching, futher measures WILL take place.

[u][b]Titus 1:10-16 (NKJV][/b][/u]

For there are many insubordinate, both idle talkers [b]and deceivers[/b], especially those of the circumcision, [b]whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole households[/b], teaching things which they ought not, for the sake of dishonest gain. One of them, a prophet of their own, said, “Cretans are always liars, evil beasts, lazy gluttons.” This testimony is true. [b]Therefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith, not giving heed to Jewish fables and commandments of men who turn from the truth.[/b] To the pure all things are pure, but to those who are defiled and unbelieving nothing is pure; but even their mind and conscience are defiled. [b]They profess to know God, but in works they deny Him, being abominable, disobedient, and disqualified for every good work.[/b]


Someone posted something like this before, but I am going to add to it.

If you do not believe that Jesus is who He said He was, you might as well throw out the entire NT, because He would never have been crucified in the first place. He was killed because He said that He was God, not because He didn't.


_________________
Christiaan

 2008/2/15 0:30Profile
LoveHim
Member



Joined: 2007/6/14
Posts: 562
Indiana, US

 Re:

dear brothers and sisters,

i thank God that the discussion has moved to the deity of Christ. this thread and the one that sister annie posted was meant to destroy our great Lord and Savior, but instead it has helped to open the multitude of scriptures that show His humanity and His deity. praise God.

ps. if anyone is gonna try to discredit the trinity or Jesus's deity, please address the multitude of scriptures posted in defense of this vital biblical doctrine.

phil

 2008/2/15 9:26Profile









 Re:

Quote:
Therefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith, not giving heed to Jewish fables and commandments of men who turn from the truth.




Thank You Miccah,


The main distinction of the first day is that on this day the Lord Jesus rose from the dead.


The word Sabbath implies a cessation of, God ceased His work of creation and rested on the Sabbath or 7th day.

Christ finished His work of redemption **It is finished** and rested on the Sabbath.

Christ truly perfected the law in His perfect sacrifice, His finished work of redemption, and His Sabbath rest.

For the Christian, Saturday or the Sabbath is the day of the ***dead Christ resting*** in the tomb.

Sunday is the day of the ****living Christ, alive forever more****.

The Sabbath commemorates the end of the old creation.

Not only was the first day of the week the day Jesus was resurrected,:

1. It was the day when Jesus first appeared to His disciples with a commission to evangelize John 20:19-23.

2. On Sunday the first gospel sermon was preached about Christ's death and resurrection Acts 2:1, Pentecost was always on Sunday

3. On that day the first converts were baptized and gathered into a Christian church Acts 2:41


4. On Sunday the disciples at Troas gathered together to break bread take the Lord's Supper, and Paul preached to them Acts 20:7.

5. On the first day of the week the Corinthian believers were to lay aside their gifts for the Lord's work I Cor. 16:2.

We serve a LIVING Savior.

I wonder, if SDA's or any other worshiping on Saturday really know what they are doing.....Are you saying Jesus didn't rise from the dead?

If He didn't **rise**, then your sin is not forgiven.

Your worshiping a day Jesus was still in the Grave...hummmmm!

Now connect that with the Deity of Christ, and Hebrews 13:20 & 21.....

So this Everlasting Covenant you say is still in effect for the Sabbath Day has actually NOW passed with the Risen Christ to the New Day...the Day of our Jesus Christ!


Love in Christ
Katy

 2008/2/15 10:40
luvvom
Member



Joined: 2008/4/17
Posts: 2


 Re:

This is a strange forum. I'm not use to this type of "blog" I feel lost so if I don't comment correctly that's why. Actually, I posted this somewhere but have no idea where. I hit the button "Start a new thread" and that didn't seem right and it wasn't, but neither does the way I'm doing now seem right...but at least it will be within this section.

It is sad when people get caught up in the "Oneness" heresy. If Wildbranch has been studying this for years and still holds to the heresy that Christ is only man, then it is obvious that the Holy Spirit is not in her to teach her the truth.

Also, someone else has very bad info on Calvin. He didn't have anything to do with that young man's death. He was only brought into court to testify against the man's heretical beliefs. That was all. There are sites which depict Calvin as a horrible person but they are wrong. I suggest reading his writings in the Institutes of the Christian Religion. The first one you should read is on prayer. I know you will come to see who Calvin really was. Read what HE wrote not what SECONDARY SOURCES write. There are a lot of people who hate Calvin and they are quite willing to tell lies about him. Anyway, I probably won't find my way back here. Search, read, and learn.

 2008/4/17 3:57Profile
jayyou
Member



Joined: 2007/10/19
Posts: 136


 Re:

Hi There everybody, May the peace and love of our Lord Jesus Christ be with all of us.


Please allow me to add my comment on this thread.

I am very aware that this thread was supposed to be about Sabbath Day versus /any day, every day/ no day, but for some reason it changed direction and moved on to a different subjet.

Please I do not want to offend anybody here, but as a Sabbath Keeper and believer in the Trinity, I respect everybody's point of view but I believe that I should make a distinction here that not everybody that advocates Sabbath Keeping share the same view when it comes to the Trinity.

This why I say this:


Throughout the bible we have in many places the confirms that God is One.

Deuteronomy 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one!

1 Corinthians 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live.


Absolutely corect, there is one God.

but then the bible tells us this...

John 1:1-3 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.

Who is John describing here?

No one but Jesus Christ....


Hebrews 11:3 By faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that the things which are seen were not made of things which are visible.


Here we have a description that the worlds were made by the word of God and in John we have a very clear description that the worlds were created through Jesus and without Jesus nothing that was made was made.... and John goes on saying that Jesus is God..

but to me, this is the most amazing proof that Jesus was with God, Jesus was and is God, is this text.


Genesis 1:26 Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness.

You can research this text in any language and you will find this verse translated as:

OUR IMAGE,
OUR LIKENESS,

If God was alone there and then, He would have said:

Let me make man in MY image.


So, to me Jesus was God, is God and always will be God and he is so unique that he is the only Being in the whole universe that is able to claim to be God and man at the same time.

Jesus had to be God to save us, for:

Jonah 2:9 Salvation is of the LORD."

Psalm 37:38-39 But the transgressors shall be destroyed together; The future of the wicked shall be cut off. 39 But the salvation of the righteous is from the LORD.

Jesus also had to be a man, for:


Man sinned man had to die...

Ezekiel 18:4 "Behold, all souls are Mine; The soul of the father As well as the soul of the son is Mine; The soul who sins shall die.


Ezekiel 18:20 The soul who sins shall die.


So, Jesus is the only one that satisfied all the criteria to save a lost world.

=========

To me there is no doubt as far as the Deity of Christ is concerned.


May the peace of Jesus Christ the Saviour of the world be with us all.

Jayme

 2008/4/17 6:58Profile
jayyou
Member



Joined: 2007/10/19
Posts: 136


 Re:

Helle again.

I have a couple of questions for you all:


I have a question though in regard of the Ten commandments
+++++++

Revelation 11:19 hen the temple of God was opened in heaven, and the ark of His covenant was seen in His temple. And there were lightnings, noises, thunderings, an earthquake, and great hail.

+++++++++++

Based on what John said, please comment on these questions?


We know that the earthly tabernacle was an exact copy of the heveanly one.


What is inside the ark that John saw?

Is the fourth commandment still there or it is only nine?

If one would take the Ten Commandments out of the ark, would it be described as a day or as a person?


Thanks....

Jayme




 2008/4/17 7:03Profile









 Re:

Quote:
Revelation 11:19 hen the temple of God was opened in heaven, and the ark of His covenant was seen in His temple. And there were lightnings, noises, thunderings, an earthquake, and great hail




When Jesus died on the Cross, the veil in the Temple was rent exactly the same time Jesus flesh was pierced in His side, signifying the way into the Holy of Holies had veen opened (( The Tabernacle of God))

The Holy of Holies is that Temple or Tabernacle

and that which was made with Hands was a picture/pattern of Jesus Christ Himself.

Because we can only come to God through Jesus Christ.....all outside of Christ will endure the wrath and Judgement coming.

Hebrews 10: 19Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,

20By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;



29Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

30For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.

31It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.



All wisdom and knowledge is in Christ.....

Revelation 13:18
Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.


Colossians 2:2-4

2That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ;

3In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.

4And this I say, lest any man should beguile you with enticing words.

2 Corinthians 3:

13And not as Moses, which put a veil over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:

14But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.

15But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.

16Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.

17Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

18But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.


Those still under the Law of Moses are blinded and have not the Wisdom that is in Christ...and have not entered through the veil.

Galatians 2:
20I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

21I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.




Katy

 2008/4/17 9:37









 Re: "Where can I lay my head, where can I dwell?"


"Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of any holy day, or in the new moon, or of SABBATH DAYS"



"which are but a shadow of things to come; BUT THE BODY IS OF CHRIST" [Col:3 vss 16 +]


The JUDEAIZERS followed Paul's ministry around like flies on honey, ripping away the foundations of Grace and Mercy, replacing them with the deadly chains of the LAW. Christ was the end of the law, and righteousness for all who believed.


In my somewhat limited exposure to "Messianic" "believers" in Israel, and here in America, I was stunned to discover that many, many Messianics view Jesus as another balance to even out the scales of the Law. They claim Him, yet cling to all the customs,[especially in Israel]and worse, traditions that Judaism provide.

Whether if this is done to avoid persecution, I do not know. There is a heightened hatred of Jesus as Lord in Israel.


Many of you in America may support these Organizations without realizing that they are not Christian at all, but have simply adopted the lingo. American Christians are very generous in giving to the true Messianics in Israel, and there is money to be made, and, remember, like "Jehovah's witnesses", some are very, very sincere, in attributing Jesus of Nazareth angel status, or less. They may keep their legalism and true belief system hid, also, for financial gain. People don't like to support cults.




Saying that, maybe a more gentle approach would have been appropriate. On the other hand, Paul, speaking of the wolf who comes knocking on your door SELLING.


"If any man comes to you with another gospel, Do not let him in your door!" [para]


Another thought on the Sabbath.


"I will put My laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts; and I will be unto them a God, and they shall be to me a people"




Born again Christians have God the Spirit to walk with, and obey, not a belief system.


The Sabbath rest is ABIDING in the resting God the Spirit dwelling in every Born Again Christian.


So many Sabbath keepers are nice, on Saturday, or Sunday, dress up and go to a meeting, nap a bit, and relax, and have an easy day of it, but yet bear the filthiest and blackest selfish heart imaginable, Sabbath after Sabbath, Shabot after Shabot. The religious crowd is the worst, for they despise the freedom of walking in Jesus Free, and as then, is now. They loathe a Spirit filled believer who believes that Christ is the END of the Law, and righteousness for all who BELIEVE.



Paul wished that these who bound others with the chains they themselves bore would be "cut off".


Christ has came that we may be free, so be not entangled again in the "YOKE OF BONDAGE"!







 2008/4/17 11:04





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