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Miccah
Member



Joined: 2007/9/13
Posts: 1752
Wisconsin

 Re:

ccchhhrrriiisss wrote:

Quote:


An interesting verse for discussion is found in II Thessalonians 2:

[b]only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed,[/b]


Just who is this who will be [i]taken out[/i] of the world in order for the “Wicked” (most likely, the Anti-Christ) to be revealed?





Hey Chris,

Don't mean to be too much a stickler, but the Word says "taken out of the way" not "taken out of the world".

Small but significant when talking about rapture stuff.
:-) :-) :-)


_________________
Christiaan

 2008/2/10 2:56Profile
daniel-
Member



Joined: 2005/8/25
Posts: 130
Germany

 Re:

Hello,

wow, this thread got really big. Well, first of all, thank you for all of your replies. To be honest, I did not want this to be turned into another rapture-debate. Seems that this issue is unavoidable :-)

The best thing for all of us to do is to simply draw as near as possible to God in our daily lives and be faithful to the core with whatever is at hand. I believe he is calling a people in these days whom He is going to raise up and who will glorify Him.

Personally, I think there will be a harvest in midst of great tribulation in this world and that we should be prepare ourselves and also pray for God to send workers out into the field.

Amen.

Daniel


_________________
Daniel Sahm

 2008/2/10 3:37Profile









 Re:

Quote:
The scripture from John 6 that I presented , from the mouth of Jesus, state that the resurrection is "at the last day". He did not say tomorrow, or 2000 years from the last day as you suggest. ???

The "Last Day" is the end of the 70th week of Daniel in which Jesus Christ came 2000 years ago and fulfilled. Though He was cut off in the middle of the week, the week continued until Daniels prophecies were fulfilled in that first century.

It's only "babble" when one doesn't understand. ;-)

 2008/2/10 11:50
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4502


 Re:

Hi dorcas…

Quote:
Thank you for your reply. I feel your confusion is partly because you choose to add 'indiscriminant' to the word. You did say 'indiscriminate' in your earlier post.


“Confusion?” Actually, I don’t feel [i]confusion[/i] in this regard. Like I said, I chose the word “indiscriminant” very carefully in order to distinguish the manner in which the Scriptures seem to indicate the Wrath of God will be poured out upon the Earth. During that time, entire geographic portions of the Earth will be destroyed in an instant. If a post-wrath view is correct, in my opinion it could only come about with God somehow supernaturally protecting all true believers during that time period (even when God destroys 1/3 of the Earth – or Babylon, etc…) because God has [u]not[/u] appointed for us to suffer His wrath. However, there are indications that this hour of God’s wrath will encompass the entire Earth (including those believers who will be here) without providing any sort of escape whatsoever.
Quote:
There is nothing in the words of Jesus to remove us from tribulation, and Rev 3:10 is the only verse I could see which implies a trial may be avoided. Other verses state clearly that we will be tried. But, we are to be of good cheer during tribulation, because He has overcome the world in which we will experience it.


Again, I think that this is why there needs to be a different word used to describe this time. It is not mere [i]tribulation[/i]. Believers have always suffered tribulation at the hands of the world. In the early days of the Church, believers were thrown to lions, gladiators, etc… Believers were tortured – to the point of being sawed in half (Hebrews 11). But the “hour” of which we speak is different. It will be a time of GREAT TRIBULATION. What makes it so “great?” During this time, the wrath of God will be poured out upon the entire planet. If we think persecution and tribulation from this world (and the god of this age) is bad – just wait until GOD pours out some wrath! The questions, however, are simple: Where will believers be during this “hour” of wrath? Are they appointed to suffer this wrath? Will believers who came to Christ BEFORE that hour began somehow be supernaturally protected during that hour? Will they be supernaturally protected when a third of the Earth is burned in an instant by God’s wrath?

I have always found it interesting in that most Bible scholars (including “pre,” “mid” and “post” trib people) accept that the time span of the “hour” of Great Tribulation that will come upon the entire Earth. Most scholars pick a period of 7 years (while a few agree upon 3 ½ years) – as indicated by the book of Daniel. We are promised to be “taken” (and not “left”). But ironically, the time of the Lord’s return (in which some will be taken and some will be left) is not even known by the Son of God (Mark 13:32)! I’ve always imagined that Christ Jesus would have a pretty good idea about his Second Coming if it is indeed calculated by Scripture. So if the “hour” of God’s wrath were to begin, then the Son of God would realize that His coming would be realized in about 7 (or possibly, 3 ½) years. Yet Jesus does not know the time of His return.

This is quite reminiscent of a Jewish wedding. The groom departs (following the betrothal), and goes to “prepare a place” for the bride. This home taking (or the “nissu’in” or “liḳḳuḥin”) can take place after at least one year, or after a home is finally prepared. Once the bride is “taken” to this place, a procession will begin in which people will be taken to the great “wedding feast.” The [i]Parable of the Ten Virgins[/i] from Matthew chapter 25, spoken in the same context with Matthew 24, illustrates this “type” as Christ is our groom and we are His bride. Some of the virgins were “unwise” because they slept without oil. When the groom suddenly came, they were unprepared, and ultimately, left behind.

How will the days be before the coming of the Lord? Well, in one context, we read that they will be similar to the days of Noah. In those days, people ate and drank all the way up until the flood suddenly came and the door was shut (and Noah and his family were protected above the flood). The “hour of trial” that will come upon the Earth doesn’t seem to fit such a description. During those days, people will seek death because of the terrible wrath of God (even wanting mountains to fall upon them in order to hide them from the presence of God)! Those who believe in a “taking away” before the wrath of God see the story of Noah as a type of the coming wrath. Everything went on like normal (marriage, divorce, eating and drinking, life is good, etc…) UNTIL the sudden day came in which Noah and his family was taken into the Ark and when God’s wrath began to be poured out and sudden destruction came.

Dorcas, I am well aware of the arguments for a post-trib coming of the Lord. While I [i]lean[/i] toward a belief that God will remove His bride before His wrath is dispensed upon the entire Earth, I am certainly aware of the various possible scenarios. I would NEVER point my finger at any of these beliefs and impudently call them “[i]a lie from Hell[/i]” (as some have done). Some seem so ferocious with their attitude – as if they thought that most pre-trib believers were so weak minded that they are actually going to bow to the Antichrist!

This entire discussion ultimately revolves around this question: Will believers be taken from the Earth during the hour in which God pours out His fierce wrath upon the Earth? There is plenty of room for discussion in this matter without necessitating resorting to ridiculously immature [i]cheap shots[/i] at the beliefs of others. I find it amazing that most post-trib believers confess to one time holding to a pre-trib viewpoint (some had these beliefs for YEARS). It makes me wonder why there is such a lack of patience on their part? Did someone point to their beliefs (back when they were pre-trib) and scoff at it while calling it a [i]lie from Hell[/i]? Or did someone take the time to present them a perspective with sincere gentleness and patience?

:-)


_________________
Christopher

 2008/2/10 15:27Profile









 Re:

I'd like to address just this part -

Chris said - "There is plenty of room for discussion in this matter without necessitating resorting to ridiculously immature cheap shots at the beliefs of others. I find it amazing that most post-trib believers confess to one time holding to a pre-trib viewpoint (some had these beliefs for YEARS). It makes me wonder why there is such a lack of patience on their part? Did someone point to their beliefs (back when they were pre-trib) and scoff at it while calling it a lie from Hell? Or did someone take the time to present them a perspective with sincere gentleness and patience?"


Did you catch where I said "Preterism is a lie" ?


When I wrote down every scripture from the old to the new and found that I could not see a Pre-Trib rapture at all - I became ANGRY at having been fed that. It wouldn't bother me in the least if someone had told me back then that what I was believing was Not True. I try to stay open until ALL the Scriptures on a Doctrine are studied. And it doesn't bother me, that for these 23 years or so - I've been literally attacked for believing post-trib and folks have gotten violent over it. NO - it Doesn't Bother Me. I sympathize with their views and respect there holding on to it for dear life - as they say they are and will. They can call post-trib a "lie" until He comes and it doesn't bother me.
It's the same with the Calvinists and Arminian debates. I am not Calvinist - but I joined a Reformed Church. Go figure.

Then 15 years after I came to my post-trib view, I read the complete History from the Early Church Fathers on and got even madder.

I'm tired of your cheap shots at Post-Trib people. It's CONSTANT. I said it was a lie once, early last year on Eli's thread and then when I saw that bothered you - I STOPPED.

IF, IF we could EVER move on to discuss this all Biblically - as PreachParsly and I were trying to do - I think it would be edifying - IF we could stay with Scriptures ONLY.

IF you had noticed or read our posts to each other - Preach and I were discussing WHEN the Wrath begins and how 'some' of us, namely me - believe in a post-trib/pre-wrath resurrection.
But you would have had to read our posts to have noticed that.

When we get to just Scriptures about this topic - it may help some Preterists to see that we STILL have a "Blessed Hope" to look forward to and we have not received our Glorified Bodies yet. Neither is GOD in the New Jerusalem that come down from Heaven wiping away our tears, and we still have sickness and Death. Phew!

That's why I appealed for a "theological" discussion on this Most Important Doctrine a few pages back, rather than constant whining.

A non-emotional, intelligent comparison of verses and chpt.s would be very edifying - I do believe - and before we are no longer allowed to meet together anymore due to persecution or Internet controls or Whatever is coming.

This particular doctrine has more Scripture in the whole of the Bible than any other doctrine in our statements of faith - as I've said before - and Jesus and Paul said - we Should know because they've "told us All things" concerning it all.

Jesus "didn't know" when He was coming back WHEN in the flesh - He has His Former Glory now as GOD and you cannot believe He doesn't know - being EQUALLY GOD as GOD.

God is not capable of "indiscriminate" wrath pouring neither. This is tiring. I wish Eli and Preach would come back for these topics and a few others who can stay Sola Scriptura with the Topic. Amen!

 2008/2/10 15:58
psalm1
Member



Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 1230


 Re:

Luke 9 ;27But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God

Matt 16; 28Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

Acts1;6When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

7And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

8But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

9And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

10And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;

11Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

22Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection.

They did not taste death until they witnessed him taken up into heaven.

But they did taste death without seeing Jesus return on his white horse with his saints.

So these scriptures are points of interest but they are NOT inferring that they saw Jesus return and set up the new Jerusalem.

A real dilemma comes when you try to make nero antichrist of revelation.


David

 2008/2/10 16:18Profile
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4502


 Re:

HE_Reigns...

Quote:
I'm tired of your cheap shots at Post-Trib people. It's CONSTANT. I said it was a lie once, early last year on Eli's thread and then when I saw that bothered you - I STOPPED.


Sister...could you…give it a rest?

You are accusing [i]me[/i] of attacking post-trib people? Sister, why do you entertain such a strange delusion! When and where have I taken "cheap shots at Post-Trib people" (and CONSTANTly)? Sister, I have only entered this discussion to promote a better manner of respect versus having people refer to others as having believed [i]a lie[/i]. You really should stop reading between the lines if you aren't adequately reading the lines of communication to begin with! The post that you are replying to, by the way, was not meant for [i]you[/i] (gasp!). It was a reply to Sister dorcas. And the "lie" that I mentioned was not written in regard to your words (I was actually referring to another brother who felt the "liberty" to point out the "lie" of a pre-wrath "taking away"). But now that you mention it, why do you feel such ease at labeling someone else's beliefs "a [i]lie[/i]?" I'm not a preterist, but it appears quite smug to use such divisive rhetoric toward another brother’s belief.
Quote:
IF, IF we could EVER move on to discuss this all Biblically - as PreachParsly and I were trying to do - I think it would be edifying - IF we could stay with Scriptures ONLY.
...
That's why I appealed for a "theological" discussion on this Most Important Doctrine a few pages back, rather than constant whining.
...
A non-emotional, intelligent comparison of verses and chpt.s would be very edifying - I do believe - and before we are no longer allowed to meet together anymore due to persecution or Internet controls or Whatever is coming.


Biblically? As if we (who lean [i]pre-wrath[/i]) don't want to discuss things Biblically? No offense, sister, but you tend to only have polite discussion with individuals who agree with your beliefs or where no specific doctrine is discussed. Once someone cautions the manner of your posts or introduces an alternative idea from your own, you often voice a feeling of being “attacked.” There is no attack here (or ulterior motives). I simply feel that we should be able to discuss this issue without resorting to degrading the views of others in regard to a manner that is not entirely clear from Scriptures. In fact, you have often stated that you were pre-trib before you became post-trib (for 10 years?). Why can’t you afford someone the same patience and tenderness without resorting to an attack on their beliefs?
Quote:
This particular doctrine has more Scripture in the whole of the Bible than any other doctrine in our statements of faith - as I've said before - and Jesus and Paul said - we Should know because they've "told us All things" concerning it all.


And yet we have so many different ideas about just how, exactly, the End will come about. But yet you seem to act as if you DO know "All things" pertaining to this oft-debated subject! How "clear" is this subject when it is difficult to find two people who believe exactly the same way in regard to the exact timing, timeline and nature of the Lord's return? It doesn't appear that everyone has reached a “consensus” regarding your beliefs.

Annie, you have been on SermonIndex for quite some time (as GrannieAnnie, Me_Again, and now HE_Reigns). You know that there is a plethora of topics in which some very sincere, revival-seeking and God-loving people disagree. Do we really need to resort to such divisive rhetoric? This sort of conversation is tiring (to say the least). Can’t we just discuss the issue in a polite manner without the use of such divisive rhetoric? Is it possible that people can read all of those verses that you have provided and STILL come to a different conclusion than the one that you have provided? Are we simply not “wise” enough or “spiritual” enough to garner the respect for our leanings?

Sister, please stop entertaining the notion that I (or anyone else in this discussion) is taking "CHEAP SHOTS" at you or your particular beliefs in this matter. In fact, it is quite the opposite. I would simply like for a kinder and more gentle use of rhetoric in discussions like this! Is that possible?

:-(


_________________
Christopher

 2008/2/10 16:43Profile









 Re:

When I have the time, I will collect all your posts on this topic. I have asked [i]you[/i] to give it a rest so for once, we could go on to [u]Scriptural[/u] discussions for a change.

Scriptures, the ECF, Historian quotes and the like - but every time this topic comes up - well, as I said, when I have time, I will collect them and PM them all to you.

As far as your accusation that I only have friendly discussions with those who agree with me - that is a false accusation.
Why am I in a Church where I don't agree with Reformed Theology - Amillenialism or baby Baptism and we never argue or discuss our differences?

"divisive rhetoric" about Preterism? Look at my signature from Ryle. The only "divisive rhetoric" that I've seen on this particular Doctrine has come from folks who do not bring Scriptures to the discussion, but start "stirring" things up without adding anything of His Word to the discussion.

And since when is false doctrine, ie, Preterism, accepted here?

To take away the Blessed Hope - brother Psalm1 posted well to that. He is a good pre-trib brother who PMed me a few times and I highly respect him for that friendship he's shown me.

As far as crying "attack" - that again is what is in all your eschatology posts.

This thread - as all the others on eschatology would have gone on with just Scripture and civilly if you did not come on every time crying "attack".
When have you Ever brought forth Scripture to these type threads?

Don't twist blame here Chris. You complained that YOU were "attacked" on the huckabee thread and it was Not true from anyone then neither.

What you say is Fact is fact - despite the subject - 'except' on this one topic - you will not come through with Scripture - just complaints - yes, constantly.

You can look over all of your posts on just this thread alone and see what you've said. Not AT me but the same respect you demand for other views you have Not given to us who hold to a post view.
You have even stereo-typed "post trib" people in your posts and told us "what they believe" - which does not hold true for All of them/us.
You have ruined almost every thread that comes up on this topic, whether I get involved in this eschatology topic of it or not - so this is not personally about me - but your view of "post-trib people".

Just bring Scripture to these topics and none of this childish waste of webspace would be needed.

This is a Doctrinal Discussion - nothing else - just like any other Doctrinal Discussion - and should be treated as such.

Enough of your taking it all personally and seeing things in any of us that isn't there - so that like psalm1 has done - we can look at what [b]HE[/b] has to say on this Doctrine.

Thank you!

 2008/2/10 17:44









 Re:

Quote:
IF, IF we could EVER move on to discuss this all Biblically - as PreachParsly and I were trying to do - I think it would be edifying - IF we could stay with Scriptures ONLY.

Preterism sticks with scripture ONLY too and it is edifying.

Quote:
And since when is false doctrine, ie, Preterism, accepted here?

The false doctrines of Darby, Scofield and dispensationlism have truly crept in unawares and have deceived many. Just because noted preachers have preached post tribulation doctrine on this site doesn't make it right. Scripture must agree with scripture, not adding and inserting gaps to make something that was to be fulfilled in their day to be far off in the future. When Jesus said, "When YOU shall see these things come to pass", He was speaking to the one's He was talking to. "This generation" of the first century would see those prophecies fulfilled before their very eyes.

I can be sympathetic. I once believed in the false doctrine of pre, mid, post tribulation doctrines. I know it's teachings, I grew up with it, but I also evolved from pre to post and still was asking the LORD for the truth.

But I don't think that this subject is worthy for this forum because people get too heated.

You know why people get angry? Because they have been challenged, their teaching is being rocked and they see a crack and they are doing everything they can to seal it up, but the truth is staring them in the face and they are unwilling to bend to the truth. They will fight tooth and nail to keep what they have as truth, because there is a security in it.

Undoing false teaching from the soul is long and painstaking, much confusion and despair of life even, but it's worth it if you endure it.

 2008/2/10 17:53









 Re:

See, now you are taking that very well. And we can compare Scriptures all day and you won't even need to take your sunglasses off. :lol:

Thanks Brother!

 2008/2/10 17:58





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