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Discussion Forum : Articles and Sermons : The Church and The Tribulation -- Zac Poonen

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 Re:

Quote:
Annie, Chris, David, Katy and all



I know I don't have all the answers here, but one thing that really has pressed upon my heart, and that is something the Lord showed me a few years ago. Rev 10:7 " The Mystery of God is complete."

There is only one other time the exact words...The mystery of God" ( many mysteries in scripture) but is used in Colossians 2 referring to the Church.

I could never find a complete peace with a rapture after Rev 3, simply because God said " come up here, because I see that from that point on John is seeing things from God's eyes, not man's. Just a thought.

The Mystery is the *Church*...the Body of Christ, a heavenly mystical union of being one with Him.....

Paul says this Mystery is Christ in you, the Hope of Glory, certainly not a hope of wrath to come.

I also believe all Christians SUFFER the moment they are identified with Jesus in death and resurrection life....and this is what the Spirit of the Life of Christ in us NOW is...***the suffering church***. We suffer because we are hated by the world, yet the suffering during the Great Tribulation will be those who suffer because they rejected the Gospel....2nd Thess.

So to think that one has to wait until the Great Tribulation to somehow be complete,or prove something to God that they can endure leaves out every Saint from the beginning, who have already passed, and will never see such a Day as this to come upon the whole earth.

I also am of the belief that starting Revelation 11 announces the Kingdom*S* of this world have now become the Kingdom of Christ, is a the announcement of the reign and rule of Jesus Christ upon the earth, and the remaining scriptures are talking about the war against Israel....

Romans 11 state that out of SION will a deliverer come....and I believe this is what corresponds to these scriptures.

We know that all Israel will be saved...that is National Israel.....and after the fullness of the Gentiles (salvation) ...

And should not be confused with the times of the Gentiles (wrath).

Just some thoughts.

I guess this would be mid trib or pre wrath?????

But certainly scripture says we will be WITH Christ at His return to earth, so how did we come to be with Him, if not that the church is caught up with Him in the clouds.

Anyway,

Just my thoughts.

I do know that dominionists believe WE are to bring in Righteousness before Jesus can return, and also believe the church has replaced those promises to Israel. This is a dangerous teaching, and the only reason I get involved in any discussion about this coming time at all.

Those who teach dominion, or replacement are WOF, and the Emergent church, and cults like Mormons JW's etc . All of that teaching is so dangerous.

Thanks for listening
Katy

 2008/2/5 16:38
ccchhhrrriiisss
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Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4499


 Re:

Hi BroClint...

Quote:
Like another thread where Bro. Mike B. said for us to be ready for "whatever". I think that is wise counsel.

I agree, and I think that this represents the gist of my posts.
Quote:
The only problem that I see is with those who are so adamantly expecting a catching away "before" being so disillusioned by the severity of something akin to the holocaust that it fulfills precisely what the Lord asked "nevertheless when the Son of Man comes will he find faith on the earth?"

Again, I agree. The "pre-trib rapture" should NOT be preached unless provided with a disclaimer. I think that there is room enough for disagreement to not go about preaching one way or the other as the only possibility. However, some do tend to imply that any alternative to post-trib is a LIE. Is this proper?

I understand the arguments made by post-trib adherents. They may, in fact, be correct. In fact, I used to be quite settled on post-trib. However, after having seriously studied the issue and much time in prayer, I don't feel "secure" that this is the case. I am not saying that "God told me" that there will be a "rapture." Quite the contrary. When I prayed, I didn't hear God tell me either way was correct! Now, before someone goes about and scoffs at this, let me be clear: I pray that I am still tender clay in the hands of God. I don't think that this issue is 100% settled either way -- no matter how much someone insists.

I also do not think that anyone has a cause to question any sort of possible deceptability because of a view in this matter. It seems (at least to me) that pre-trib believers are often scoffed at by the post-trib crowd. Often, it does seem to come across as a condescending (although sincere) warning about possible "deception." We sometimes feel "spoken down to" and are warned that we are not properly "watching" for the Lord's return. Can't we agree that we are all (hopefully) searching for the truth in this matter? Like Brother Keith implied, we will probably not reach a consensus by this single thread. And like you said, we should be sincerely praying about what we study in this regard everyday. But what is the danger in hoping for a pre-wrath escape while still being prepared to die or endure extreme tribulation for our Lord?

I [i]lean[/i] toward a belief in a "catching away" of the Church just prior to the hour of God's wrath upon the Earth. I presented the rationale for my current leanings in another thread once, but I was scoffed, mocked and ridiculed for it.

The point is that I feel that we should be very careful NOT to come across as condescending to those who disagree with us on such a divisive matter. Is this issue firmly established in the Word? Is this a sacred tenant of the faith? Some would argue yes. I would say no (just by the preponderance of disagreement -- even amongst the brethren at SermonIndex). We should not point to another person's belief or leaning in this matter and call it "a LIE" simply because it goes against what we sincerely think to be true. It's not like we are discussing something that is clear from the Word of God. We are discussing something that has been debated for years! Is such rhetoric appropriate in the Body of Christ?

:-(


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Christopher

 2008/2/5 16:45Profile
broclint
Member



Joined: 2006/8/1
Posts: 370
West Monroe, LA

 Re:

Quote:
Chris said: The point is that I feel that we should be very careful NOT to come across as condescending to those who disagree with us on such a divisive matter.



Brother, I have to agree that we should never be condescending to one another period. There are certainly issues that I could not and would not ever compromise and if it came to a discussion in which there was an adamant "you'll never convince me", I would have to just leave in the hands of God.

I heard a message last evening and I cannot remember the preacher's name, sad to say, but he made a comment that stuck with me regarding the fact that the devil showed all the kingdoms of this world to Jesus in a "moment of time". And yet for all ETERNITY we will be learning more and more about the INFINITE wisdom of God. (not a quote just my added observation) Were He to run out of things for us to see, explore, learn, then with a word, He could create another universe that outstrips this one as much as the sun outstrips the moon. To live for ETERNITY in the presence of God, what can compare?

My main concern is that we live lives that are crucified to this old flesh that honors such a wonderful King that would condescend to love such a worm as I. Whatever we face, may God help us to say as Job, "though He slay me, yet will I trust Him!"

Clint


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Clint Thornton

 2008/2/5 17:08Profile
SimpleLiving
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Joined: 2008/1/11
Posts: 375
Minnesota, USA

 Re:

I apologize if this was too touchy a thread to create. I really hoped it wasn't going to evolve into a debate of tribulation doctrines for exactly the reason I mentioned earlier - it has no chance of being resolved in this thread.

After I read Zac Poonen's article, I was encouraged by the hope and encouragement it gave regarding tribulations of the [i]every day[/i] sort. Who couldn't use some encouragement with those? I think everyone would agree that those are happening [i]right now![/i]

This discussion went much better than any other one I've seen on this the subject, though. Sometimes I think the spirit of competition sneaks into the Christian life. Why do I say that? Look at "the world" around us: sports have turned into idolatry and its own religion, political correctness says that everyone is right and we can sue anyone who hurts our feelings. Everything is focused on "me" and is based on feelings and emotions, which now run frighteningly hot among people. Don't agree? How about the man that shot three people dead over an argument about the Super Bowl. Who batted an eyelash at that news story? No one. It's commonplace.

But for us. We're different. We're new creations. We're family. We're on the same side. Discussions are great but heated debates, arguments and taking small "innocent" shots at each other is worldly behavior, not Christlike. We can't even use the excuse that "we're just human" because that goes against scripture. We're new creations and have the Holy Spirit and grace to guide us. These are choices we're making and these choices affect our eternity.


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Keith

 2008/2/5 18:03Profile
psalm1
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Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 1230


 Re:

I have no problem placing the rapture before the tribulation. not because of anything or any teaching but because I have weighed the options and explored each possibility(that I know of) and in order to reconcile the scripture I have brought forth.
Where we differ is the second coming as one event.

If it is then I cant reconcile the scriptures I have brought forth.

I am not trying to make them fit anywhere.

I am trying to see what position to take in light of those verses.And they dont line up with a post trib event.

The only way i can see these scriptures reconciled is for the 2nd coming to be two fold.

It is this point that we differ.
And btw I came from a A millennial church setting but saw differently when I read my bible.

I dont know but i think yall refer to them as preterist now.
I am highly interested in this topic and I am not predisposed to either view because i did not come from those backgrounds i came from a A millennial church.

If you can show me Im wrong then so be it .I will eat humble pie and be better for it.
However the scriptures (from where I sit) are increasingly pointing to a pre trib rapture,

The reason I said I had been studying 30 years was in response to the first or second post of this thread. The brother stated he had been in dead works 23 or so years.
I think i wrongfully implied that I had racked up 30 years of straight study. NOT THE CASE!
I doubt I can even claim 10 years of straight study.(my bad)
I like you guys test the word and am shooting for truth.
I like it that my feet are held to the fire and I think that is a good thing!

David

 2008/2/5 18:42Profile
psalm1
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Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 1230


 Re:

Bro. keith, I dont feel that way.

From my viewpoint this is a forum and as such any biblical topic is fair game(of course under the eye of the moderator)

But lively debate is a excellent chance to be "proven"
To test what you understand against all the other saints......Is awesome!
Where else can this be done?
You have an awesome opportunity with sermon index
Also you can pm any member you feel things are heating up , and tell them your heart to avoid offences.


David

 2008/2/5 18:50Profile
broclint
Member



Joined: 2006/8/1
Posts: 370
West Monroe, LA

 Re:

Quote:
I like it that my feet are held to the fire and I think that is a good thing!



I appreciate your 'tude about it Brother. Haven't had enough coffee to stay awake at this hospital, much less to bring together all my "years and years" :-) of study to the table.

I just want us all to make it, and I mean that. I hope SI will be in operation for this cyber family to keep having "iron to sharpen iron". There is so much to know "down here", just imagine what ignoramuses we are regarding what Paul said,“Eye has not seen, nor ear heard,

Nor have entered into the heart of man

The things which God has prepared for those who love Him.”


Clint


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Clint Thornton

 2008/2/5 18:51Profile
ccchhhrrriiisss
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Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4499


 Re:

Hi Keith...

Quote:
I apologize if this was too touchy a thread to create. I really hoped it wasn't going to evolve into a debate of tribulation doctrines for exactly the reason I mentioned earlier - it has no chance of being resolved in this thread.


Brother, you don't need to apologize! I think that your heart appears quite transparent (like it should be) and your initial post was self-explanatory! While I disagree with the manner in which some people almost "force-feed" their post-trib (and pre-trib) beliefs (with sort of a "my way or the highway" manner), I don't think that anyone would point such an accusation at you. I have found your fellowship quite refreshing, as I do with all of the brethren here at SermonIndex (even if there is the occasional bumping of the doctrinal heads). What a joy to publicly share our faith and encouragement with one another! There are nations where such speech is literally against the law and punishable by death! We should never take one another for granted!

I have always found it perplexing that the matter is of such grave importance to some. I have seen people literally "shake the dust off" in regard to fellowship because of disagreement about the timing and exact manner of our Lord's return. I have witnessed brethren part company of the most ridiculous of matters. Is this a petty matter? Yes and no. The timing or manner of the Lord's return does NOT affect our relationship with Him. Yeah, there might be some who could possibly be shocked if a "pre-wrath rapture" doesn't take place. We should caution those who believe in the "rapture" about the possibility of enduring the hour of God's wrath. There might be some post-trib people who are shocked if a "rapture" takes place before the hour of God's wrath. I suppose that they would just have a thankful, sheepish grin.

Regardless, in the end, the end will come! We should all be prepared for the best or worst! We should be watching for the Lord's return and aware of the events as they transpire. But we should never be given to (or spreaders of) fear or paranoia amongst the brethren. If our faith is grounded firmly in Christ Jesus, then why should we fear? While the position of Times Square Church and David Wilkerson is (at least, according to an email response from Neil Rhodes) quietly remains in the pre-trib camp, I like a quote that I found from him some time ago: "[i]Pre-Trib, Mid-Trib, Post-Trib? I believe in 'Pan-Trib.' It will all 'pan out' in the end.[/i]"

One thing is certain: Regardless of the exact manner or timing of the Lord's return -- I can't wait to see His face!!! Oh what a glorious day that will be!!!

:-)


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Christopher

 2008/2/5 19:01Profile
SimpleLiving
Member



Joined: 2008/1/11
Posts: 375
Minnesota, USA

 Re:

Quote:
by psalm1 on 2008/2/5 17:50:40

Bro. keith, I dont feel that way.

From my viewpoint this is a forum and as such any biblical topic is fair game(of course under the eye of the moderator)

But lively debate is a excellent chance to be "proven"
To test what you understand against all the other saints......Is awesome!
Where else can this be done?
You have an awesome opportunity with sermon index
Also you can pm any member you feel things are heating up , and tell them your heart to avoid offences.



Brother David,

I think, since my testimony is one of coming out of a background of spiritual abuse, I may be more sensitive to it than some others. Not "sensitive" in a thin-skinned way. [i](Try to offend me and you'll fail. The only thing that offends me is taking the Lord's name in vain or using it carelessly in an exclamation or joke. And I'll call anyone to task on that, whether it's a stranger or my boss.)[/i] I'm sensitive because I can see the little jabs coming. I can tell when a "just kidding" is not kidding at all. I know all of the polite Christian lingo used to insult and hurt other people. (Even when it's said "in love.") Some do it unintentionally, but that still speaks volumes about that person's inner life and what's in their heart.

I [i]do[/i] believe debate has its place, even if I'm not one to participate in it often. But, they can easily become snares with very thin lines that cross over into offense, anger, bitterness, pride and rebellion. A [i]very[/i] thin line. Even under the eyes of a moderator. First, because a moderator can't be in every thread every day. I've moderated a forum before and know it's very difficult. Secondly, because we don't always know what stage of their Christian walk a person is in. We may kid around or take to task someone we think we know, but who people claim to be online is not necessarily who they are in real life. If a spirited debate gets a little out of line, we may end up heaping condemnation on them, not knowing that they have an unspoken struggle. I've seen this happen so many times.

I believe, online debates can be fun, useful and productive! I don't want to hinder anyone's enjoyment of a good, healthy go! But, I do believe we should have the wisdom to use the "PREVIEW" button and read our posts for a self-check on our attitudes and motives so we aren't a stumbling block unknowingly.

!!! PLEASE NOTE !!! I'm speaking in general, not specifically towards [i]any[/i] brother or sister here. I don't ever sign-off the forums thinking, "Boy, brother so-and-so has an attitude!" When I find myself having any such thoughts about anyone, I call that thought into submission and remember that that's someone God loves dearly.

P.S. I'm really not a stick-in-the-mud humbug. Really, I'm not! I've always been called an "old soul" if that helps clarify anything about me! People tell me I was born 84 years old! My friends actually call me "Charles Ingalls, Jr," saying, "Keith, you're life is so Rated-G!" :lol:


_________________
Keith

 2008/2/5 20:08Profile









 Re:

Keith,

I was pre-trib for years, then mid-trib, then post-trib!!! THEN.... I read Rev 20 v.e.r.y. carefully and came to a far more different conclusion than I ever have before!!! I don't think ANY tribulation doctrinal theory is the correct one anymore.

You might be interested in [url=http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/viewcat.php?cid=528]David Pawson's Revelation Series[/url], 10 sermons. And also [url=http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/viewcat.php?cid=157&min=260&orderby=titleA&show=20]Zac Poonen's Series on Revelation[/url], about 18? sermons. Found on page 13 or 14 in Zac's list of sermons.

I'm not going to say what I've come to believe is "THE" way because I'm human and I'm flawed but as of today it makes more sense than anything else I've heard of. I heard it first from Zac's sermon (#14 I believe).

Today I believe what should concern God's people is NOT the rapture but attaining to the first resurrection. Are they one and the same? I don't know. Read Rev 20 very carefully.

Quote:
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.


I believe the first resurrection is for those who've set aside their lives, their thoughts, their opinions and took up their cross and followed Him!! Am I in that number? As of today, no I am not. I would hope to attain to it.

Now, here is the most interesting part... The second resurrection is NOT for all those who are going to hell. It is where the rest of the dead (christians AND unsaved) are resurrected so they can stand before the Judgment Seat of Christ...

Quote:
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.


My question is, if all the Christians are raptured or resurrected in the first resurrection, why is there a need for the book of Life to be pulled out for the 2nd? There would be no need for it.

So I'm seeing that there "IS" a division between those who set aside their thoughts, their opinions, their own beliefs so that they can be holy, like Christ. We are saved by grace but made holy by MUCH sacrifice and possibly suffering on our part.

With this realization has come many changes in my life. It's making me much more aware in the way I live, speak, and think. My desire is to go in the 1st but I am not so arrogant as to think I will. But armed with this knowledge things are changing in my life for the good whether I make the first or not, Praise God!

God bless,

 2008/2/5 20:21





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