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 Re: Legalism



Hello chiefofsiners,

Might you be able to see a parallel in the last paragraph of Mattie's post which you quoted in full, and your response to it? Hope I'm not being legalistic, though.

;-)

Quote:
Mattie: ... The essence of a religious spirit is feeling superior to another or less than another. We are all one because of Christ. Praise God

chiefofsiners: I agree with you brother. Good luck with this arguement here. Your probably wasting your breath.

What do mean 'Your probably wasting your breath'?


washad said:
Quote:
Bible study and prayer.
Fasting and meditation. Memorization and soulwinning. These things take time and each is required for a well rounded relationship with the Lord. Now is it legalistic to put these things first? Is it legalistic to require these of yourself? your family? Your church? Answer. It can be. If you begin to make rules. (Pray, study for this long everyday. If you don't your a backslider!You had better witness to at least five people every day or you don't care about souls!) That is legalism.
It is not the act but rather the motive. Jesus told the Pharisees that the things they did were good but they were trading the best for the good.( tithing of spices but robbing widows, he said to take care of the last three but not to leave the other undone). He exposed their motives and was quick to point out there is a difference between doing something for self exaltation in self righteousness(look at me) and doing something for the sake of Christ (look at Him).The same action but a different motive leads to a different reaction from God Himself. This is what I see in the issue of legalism. I had better stop this may not even be online with this thread.

You made a lot of sense to me. I thought your analysis was excellent - edifying and enlightening together.

 2008/2/2 15:29
poet
Member



Joined: 2007/2/16
Posts: 231
Longview WA

 Re:

this is a quote:"our righteouness is as filthy rags"

Unless someone has the scripture for me, it is correctly quoted, from Isaiah 64:6
But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our "righteousnesses" are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.
verse 7
And there is none that calleth upon thy name, that stirreth up himself to take hold of thee: for thou hast hid thy face from us, and hast consumed us, because of our "iniquities".

When I studied this verse the righteous acts as stated in other versions of the bible.. the king James says righteousnesses.
this is not holiness but acts of holiness.
Isaiah is Lamenting the fact that since they were not being holy before God their righteous acts were not going to be acceptable before God.
This is one of the most misquoted scriptures known.
If were going to be unholy, ungodly, and hipocrites, our righteousnesses, are going to be filthy rags before a holy God,,
I hope this helps..
If someone has other ideas concerning this it would be helpful. Thx.


_________________
howard

 2008/2/2 18:40Profile









 Re:

Quote:

dorcas wrote:


Hello chiefofsiners,

Might you be able to see a parallel in the last paragraph of Mattie's post which you quoted in full, and your response to it? Hope I'm not being legalistic, though.

;-)

Quote:
Mattie: ... The essence of a religious spirit is feeling superior to another or less than another. We are all one because of Christ. Praise God

chiefofsiners: I agree with you brother. Good luck with this arguement here. Your probably wasting your breath.

What do mean 'Your probably wasting your breath'?


washad said:
Quote:
Bible study and prayer.
Fasting and meditation. Memorization and soulwinning. These things take time and each is required for a well rounded relationship with the Lord. Now is it legalistic to put these things first? Is it legalistic to require these of yourself? your family? Your church? Answer. It can be. If you begin to make rules. (Pray, study for this long everyday. If you don't your a backslider!You had better witness to at least five people every day or you don't care about souls!) That is legalism.
It is not the act but rather the motive. Jesus told the Pharisees that the things they did were good but they were trading the best for the good.( tithing of spices but robbing widows, he said to take care of the last three but not to leave the other undone). He exposed their motives and was quick to point out there is a difference between doing something for self exaltation in self righteousness(look at me) and doing something for the sake of Christ (look at Him).The same action but a different motive leads to a different reaction from God Himself. This is what I see in the issue of legalism. I had better stop this may not even be online with this thread.

You made a lot of sense to me. I thought your analysis was excellent - edifying and enlightening together.




Hi dorcas,

I've argued this point many times, and it seems like I get shot down every time I bring it up. Just a warning.

Don't think I'm better or anything like that, just perhaps, a little more experienced in this matter.

I know the full extent of legalism. I've taken it to the extremes. Just like Paul, I've even hurt the church. Wish I could go back and change some things, but what doesnt kill us makes us stronger. Right?

If our works are done with the right motive we will be rewarded, if not, they'll be burned up, bottom line.

 2008/2/2 21:51
SimpleLiving
Member



Joined: 2008/1/11
Posts: 375
Minnesota, USA

 Re:

There is a video sermon by Zac Poonen on this very topic. I must admit I haven't watched it as of yet, but I will. I'm listening to this whole series of his right now. (His Freedom from Denominationalism is wonderful!)


[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=7647&commentView=itemComments]Freedom from Legalism[/url]


_________________
Keith

 2008/2/2 21:56Profile
Mattie
Member



Joined: 2004/7/23
Posts: 210


 Re:

Philippians 2:13 "for it is God who causes you to WILL and to DO His good pleasure"

It is God who causes us to pray in the Spirit. It is God who gives us understanding and the ability to comprehend the Scriptures. It is God who gives us His power to witness. The point I'm making in all this is that it is all a work of God through a vessel, so no flesh can glory in His presence.

It is possible to evangelize, pray 3 hours a day, read Genesis to Revelation and still be a self-centered, arrogant, wrong-spirited person.

So the issue is not the works, but what is causing us to do the works? God looks at motives and not the outward acts.

Revelations 2 - the Ephesians church had deeds, labor, patience, and tested false apostles, yet lacked the love of God behind it.

1 Corinthians 13 - it's possible to prophesy, have faith, know all the mysteries and knowledge, give to the poor and be a martyr, yet without love it's nothing.

So again.. the point is that we should not look to deeds and righteous acts to feel a sense of "righteousness" because only God in us is righteous. When it is He who causes us to will and do His good pleasure, He is fulfilling righteousness in us by the law of life. When we are striving to "appear righteous" or feel righteous by these deeds, we're under law again (the yoke of bondage) and we are estranged from Christ.

The entire book of Galatians talks about this.

 2008/2/2 22:15Profile









 Re: Legalism



Hi chief,

Seems I've missed those threads previously. Thanks for the partial clarification. Am I correct in deducing your experience has given you the impression people here are more legalist at heart than they seem to realise?



 2008/2/2 22:15
JesusIsMyLrd
Member



Joined: 2005/10/28
Posts: 119
Iowa, USA

 Re:

Greetings in Jesus' name!

It's been a while since i've been on sermonindex, so grace and peace to everyone again! God bless you all. i trust that we are all growing in grace and the knowledge of the Father, and His Son.

Here's some thoughts about legalism, particularly on the subject of an ordered life (Bible reading, praying, etc.) being accused of legalism.

1. Since i eat every day, at the same time, and it's not a spiritual activity, i must be a legalist. Oh, wait, if i don't eat, i'll die.

2. Since i sleep every night and its not a spiritual thing, but a physical, i must be a legalist, because i have to DO it! Oh, wait, if i don't sleep, i'll die.

3. Since i bathe and keep clean, and would never stop doing it, and it's not a spiritual thing, but a physical, i'm must be a legalist. Oh wait, if i don't bathe.... :-?



SO...


If i say that i have to feed on the Word of God daily, or i'll die, it is just as silly for one to consider me a legalist as if they would condemn me for eating food every day...

If i say that i have to pray to my heavenly Father every day, or i'll die, it is just as silly for one to consider me a legalist as if they would condemn me for sleeping every night...

Etc.

i hope that you can hear my point through the lame illustrations.

Brethren, sisters, many times we do ourselves damage, and its just what the enemy wants it, to stay away from the necessities of the Christian life: because we don't want to be legalistic.

Just because it's practical, doesn't mean its legalism.

Hey, in order to serve God, you've gotta get outta bed in the morning, RIGHT??? Is that legalism/ serving God through works instead of Christ?

Nay, but, rather, the practical outflow of God's Spirit in your life.

To seek God for service that is practical, and to keep Christ as the center, this is maintaining the Christian life, in a nutshell. Then as we are doing that, let's go out and PREACH THE GOSPEL TO THE LOST AND DYING WORLD!!

Hence, my thoughts...


God richly bless all of you dear ones. i hope i don't come across as sarcastic, or harsh... that's not my heart. :-D


Highest regards and utmost respect to you all,

-nathan


_________________
Nathan

 2008/2/2 23:24Profile
rowdy2
Member



Joined: 2007/1/21
Posts: 528
Southern USA

 Re: Legalism


Reply to Mattie

Mat that was real sheep food, thanks.
Eddie


_________________
Eddie

 2008/2/2 23:49Profile









 Re: Legalism? Depends on where we're coming from!

This thread has made me consider this question of legalism in a new way. And especially, "Where am I at now?"

As someone said, it is our heart-attitude that matters. And only God knows the heart.

I would see legalism, in a nutshell, as [u][i][b]trying to obey God in our own strength[/b][/i][/u].

We probably all do that - unless we don't bother to even try to obey God, and just go our own way!

In that case we would accuse almost [i]any[/i] believer of legalism who sought to walk carefully before the Lord!

But that is almost certainly not so with anyone in this discussion.

It's obvious that several of us on this thread, (including myself) have suffered through vainly trying to "establish our own righteousness", thinking that this was how to please God. And, even when we realised it was actually [i]not[/i] pleasing to Him, maybe we were unable to stop! Certainly that has been my problem from a child - trying too hard to please [i]everyone[/i] - including God. And because that's impossible, falling into frequent despair of ever being acceptable to others, especially Him!

.....................................................................

Where am I now? Not sure. I'm still quite pernickity over some things, but have come an awful long way from what I used to be before the Lord really began to deal with this.

At the moment I feel as if I'm in a bit of ano-man's land. The Lord has set me free from the guilt and from much of the fear of offending people, making mistakes or doing the "wrong" thing that was the driving force behind the extreme legalism I suffered from. (Like the unprofitable servant "I was afraid knowing that thou art a hard man...")

But I haven't yet learned in practice to take hold of His strength, and be moved by love of Him, instead of hopeless striving through fear, as the power and motivation for obedience.

The "fig leaves" and "filthy rags" are all but gone, but I haven't yet learned how to walk day by day clothed in His rightousness and strength instead of my own...

in Him

Jeannette

 2008/2/3 7:34









 Re: Legalism

Quote:

Mattie wrote:
One thing that I struggled with for a very long time, growing up in the church setting, is the issue of legalism. I always knew that we cannot be saved by our works, but I often times tried to walk with God by my own works and think He took pleasure in me because of my works. Thank God for the law of Life, this glorious new covenant.

Amen! I used to think that although the Lord loved me He disapproved every time I failed in the slightest way! So I was constantly trying to gain His approval!

As a small child I remember asking my mother whether you should say "Amen" ("A" as in "hey") or "Amen" ("A" as in "arm"). She said it didn't matter so I used to say it both ways, just in case!

Sounds silly, but that was the measure of my fear of getting things wrong.

Quote:
I think one of the greatest issues in the professing church today is not the prosperity gospel, but a works mentality...

Mmm, not sure about that. They are both wrong, and very harmful to the Church as a whole!

Quote:
1. Like the Judaizers in the New Testament, we believe even AFTER salvation that God thinks there something good in us. There is no good thing in our flesh - this is a liberating thought - God's not expecting us to reach a standard.

2. the Standard is Christ. The only good that can come out of a human vessel is Christ Himself. Anything outside of that is human striving.

It took me many years to [i]really[/i] be able to really accept that!

Quote:
The essence of a religious spirit is feeling superior to another or less than another. We are all one because of Christ. Praise God

That is so true!

thanks for this

Jeannette

 2008/2/3 7:48





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