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pastorfrin
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Joined: 2006/1/19
Posts: 1406


 The Security of the Believer

The Security of the Believer
A Discourse on Hebrews 6:4-6
by Richard Mummau

"For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted of the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If They shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame" (Hebrews 6:4-6).

Many sincere Christians after reading these two verses have become discouraged and have almost given up the faith because they have decided that they sinned and have no hope to repent again. This conclusion is arrived at because they read these verses without considering the context in which it is written. While God has given us warnings in the Scriptures, this passage is really intended to instruct us how to deal redemptively in bringing backsliders back into the fellowship with God and the church. The book of Hebrews was written to Jewish Christians, but the truth taught here is for all times and for all Christians.

Briefly stated, this passage is declaring that:

It is possible for a saved person to fall away from the faith.

When a saved person falls away from the faith, it does not mean that he was not "born again" initially.

When a saved person falls away from the faith it is possible to restore them, but it is impossible to restore them the same way they were saved the first time. In other words, a person cannot be born again the second time.


The writer states in Hebrews 5:11-14 that the Hebrews were not growing in their Christian experience. He says they "are dull of hearing," and still babes. The phrase "word of righteousness" in Heb 5:13 is referring to the way in which God saves a person and brings him into a right relationship with Himself.

The Jewish religious economy is known for its many sacrifices. Every year the Jews had to bring a sin offering. The Hebrew Christians were now confronted with the truth that Jesus Christ had by one offering made the final sacrifice for all sin for all time. They were having trouble accepting and applying this truth. They had helped people through to a salvation experience with Jesus Christ. These new believers had given evidence of being saved or "born again."
There was fruit that gave evidence that they were indeed Christians. But some of these Christians after a period of time fell away from the faith. When this happened the Jewish Christians thought that they were not properly converted the first time, so they had them start over again. In other words, they tried to have them become "born again" the second time rather than making things right and starting off where they lost out. They did this by discounting all that happened before and making them believe again, repent again, laying hands on them again in baptism, etc. By doing everything again they were implying that the reason they fell away was that God's work in their lives wasn't sufficient the first time. When they did this they were "holding Him up to open shame and crucifying Him afresh."

This interpretation of Hebrews 6:6 is supported by Hebrews 6:1-3. In these verses the Paul tells the Jewish Christians, "Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ,....not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands." Verses 7 and 8 are given as an example of what the Hebrew Christians were doing.
One kind of earth was watered and blessed by God. Some earth brought forth herbs, and some of the same earth brought forth thorns and briars. What the Hebrew Christians were doing by having Christians start over again was the same as saying that God's rain and blessing on the earth that brought forth thorns and briars was not good enough, when it was the condition of the earth that made the difference.
In this example the earth represents those who have experienced the new birth. Likewise, when a person falls away, it is because of some fault or failure in the exercise of faith of the persons who falls away, not because Jesus didn't do His work right when He saved that person.

There is a current doctrine that says if a person falls away, they were not saved in the first place. Often people will say that the person only "tasted" salvation, but did not experience it. This passage clearly refutes this teaching.
Hebrews 6:1-8 is teaching that when a person falls away and does repent, he continues from where he left off. The phrase "For it is impossible to renew them again unto repentance" is referring to taking them back to another New Birth. Also, Hebrews 2:9 says that Jesus was willing to taste death for every man, and we know that Jesus actually experienced death. The word taste is translated from the same Greek word in both Hebrews 6:5 and Hebrews 2:9. Generally, the reason people interpret taste in this way is to make room for their doctrine "Once saved, always saved."

The Apostle Paul in his epistle to the Romans says that "if we live after the flesh, we shall die", so it is possible for a Christian to come to the place when he dies spiritually and is no longer a Christian. But when this person repents and comes again into a saving relationship with Jesus Christ, it is a person being brought back from the dead, not being born again the second time. When Lazarus gave evidence of being alive after he was buried in the tomb, it was not because he was "born again," but because he was brought back to life. There are numerous instances in the Scriptures of people being restored to life, and not one of them was "reborn." The account of the prodigal son is another example. He was born, left home, and returned in repentance. His father said when he returned "For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost and is found."

An example of being "born again" the second time is -- if when Israel sinned after crossing the Red Sea, Moses would have tried to take the Israelites back into Egypt and let God bring them out again. Another example would be to tell a person who made a wrong turn in Indiana on his way from Pennsylvania to California that he had to go back to Pennsylvania and start over.

The Apostle Paul's statement in Galatians 4:19 where he says "My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you" is only indicating that he was having to put as much effort and suffer as much pain trying to establish them as he did when he helped to convert them. He calls them "little children" and later brethren, so he was not trying to make Christians out of them, but only trying to help them grow up into fully mature Christians.

Let us consider some other implications we face if we consider those who are restored to the faith as being "born again" another time. Do we as a church rebaptize a person when that person strays from the faith and returns? Generally all they have to do is make confession of their sin, prove themselves, and we restore them to membership again. When we talk to backsliders, do we ask them to accept Christ, or do we just tell them to repent of their sins and be restored again.

I know a person who was born again and afterward had much restitution to make. He had stolen money which he repaid. If He falls away again, should he try to be "born again," and if he does, must he go back and make the same restitution again? We all know the answer is no. We only ask him to repent of the sins that caused him to fall and to make things right from the time he fell away.

This passage gives the Christian assurance and peace in that it confirms that to fail in some area of our Christian experience is not an indication that we are not truly saved. It assures us that what Christ did for us at our conversion is sufficient and that we can trust Him to continue to work in our lives. The blessings experienced by the Passover Blood in Egypt were not an end in themselves, but were continually benefited from as they allowed God to continue to lead them. Now this article is not to negate the fact that a person can depart from the faith to such a degree that he is no longer a saved person. There are many other Scriptures that declare that our salvation is conditional.

There are also Scriptures that make it clear that people can depart so far from the faith that they cannot return, but Hebrews 6:2-4 is not one of them. Romans 1:24 makes it clear that people can become so reprobate that God will give them up to vile affections. Read also Romans 1:26. 2 Thessalonians 2:11 also declares that God will send people strong delusion that they should believe a lie: that they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrightousness. When God gives people up, there is no hope for them any more. The reason is that no man cometh unto Jesus unless God draws him, and when God gives someone over to a reprobate mind, that drawing power is no longer working in that individual. When God gives someone up He does it by completely leaving him and allowing him to be controlled by his own lusts and desires. We must be careful that we do not decide when this is. Only God knows when a person comes to that place. We are to continue to help everyone that we can to come to salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. I know a person who was accused of being so reprobate that there was no hope for him. Well, today that person is a born again Christian and a member of a conservative Mennonite Church.

Probably we should distinguish between a backslider and an apostate. A backslider knows he is wrong, but he is not willing to change. An apostate has convinced himself that he is right and promotes his error as truth. I tend to think that the Apostate is beyond hope. This brings us to another doctrine we should look at.

We are often asked if we believe a person can "lose" their salvation. Most of us probably would say yes. But do we really "lose" our salvation? People can "cease to be a believer." When a person begins to live in sin and disobey the Scriptures, it is because he does not really "believe" the Scriptures. This is not to say that the person who commits a sin has ceased to believe. But when a person can habitually practice those things that the Bible labels sin, they cease to be a believer. Often these are practices that they at one time would have called sin.

Our terminology often leaves people confused and frustrated. When we meet a person who knows only the Calvinistic doctrine of "unconditional eternal security" and we say they can "lose" their salvation, the first thing that comes to their mind is that they can come to the end of a day and not be saved and not know about it. It is like a person working all day and when he goes to his car and reaches in his pocket he cannot find his car key. He lost his keys. This is how those who believe in unconditional eternal security define or understand our use of the term lose. It is easy to understand how this concept would be reprehensible to them.

The Scriptures teach that redemption is all of God, but salvation is conditional and based upon a conscious act of our will in the exercise of faith in Jesus Christ. The Scriptures also teach that a person who continues to exercise saving faith in Jesus Christ is secure. But when a person begins to neglect his spiritual life he will come to the place where he is not truly exercising saving faith in Jesus Christ. He may continue to say he believes, but it is only a verbal belief and not a conscious exercise of the will to live for God. That is all that saving faith is, a conscious exercise of the will to always do what we believe the Bible teaches. It is also obeying the voice of the Spirit in areas where the Scriptures are silent.

When a person continues to habitually practice sin, he "ceases to be a believer" and is no longer a Christian. So the statement "The believer is eternally secure" is a correct statement. It is the definition of who is a believer that must be answered.

Our tendency though, is to write people off quicker than God writes them off. I am convinced that true Christians are more secure then they think they are, and those who are careless in their Christian walk, are probably not as secure as they think they are. May God help us continue to consciously exercise a living faith in Jesus Christ, and may we do it in such a way that others are led to Him.


http://www.anabaptists.org/writings/security.html

edit: see also Faith Works Security at

http://www.anabaptists.org/writings/secure.html


 2008/1/31 22:21Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3698
Ca.

 Re: The Security of the Believer

I have never heard this man, but I WILL find more of him. This is such a refreshing breath of truth.

Wow! I don't feel alone anymore in this: As is said this scripture in not a refutation of a person unable to loose his salvation, but a conformation of the inability for the Father to make a wrong choice and birthing His Son in a believer that is going to fall away.

Quote:;;;;

""""
The Security of the Believer
A Discourse on Hebrews 6:4-6
by Richard Mummau

"For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted of the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If They shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame" (Hebrews 6:4-6).

Many sincere Christians after reading these two verses have become discouraged and have almost given up the faith because they have decided that they sinned and have no hope to repent again. This conclusion is arrived at because they read these verses without considering the context in which it is written. While God has given us warnings in the Scriptures, this passage is really intended to instruct us how to deal redemptively in bringing backsliders back into the fellowship with God and the church. The book of Hebrews was written to Jewish Christians, but the truth taught here is for all times and for all Christians.

Briefly stated, this passage is declaring that:

It is possible for a saved person to fall away from the faith.

When a saved person falls away from the faith, it does not mean that he was not "born again" initially.

When a saved person falls away from the faith it is possible to restore them, but it is impossible to restore them the same way they were saved the first time. In other words, a person cannot be born again the second time.z""""

End Quote.



I only have one problem with this statement: How can one fall away from a Faith that is not His? Nothing the believer has is his own.
Jesus did not give us another day, that is a Sabbath. He is or Sabbath. He did not give us peace, He is our Peace.

Ephesians 2:13-15 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. ((((For he is our peace,)))) who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

Jesus did not give us Love, He is Love, making us His Love in Christ. He is our All in All.
Including our Faith, Wisdom, Righteousness, Sanctification, and redemption, our Spirit, our life our All. Spirit, soul, body.

1 Corinthians 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

Saved in Spirit, being Saved in soul-mind, will be saved in flesh.

2Cr 1:10 Who delivered us from so great a death, (((Spirit))) and doth deliver: (((soul-mind)))in whom we trust that he will yet deliver [us];(((Body))).

By the Faith of Jesus Christ:

Rom 3:3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?

Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God [which is] by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

In the same manner of the faith of Abraham, now righteousness is by the Faith of Jesus Christ that is in us by His birth in the believer. Abraham's faith out, The Faith of Jesus Christ, in.

Just like our old nature, Satan our and Christ in, new nature and New Creation Race of Christ-Ones. "Christ in you the Hope of Glory", Christ creatures.

Rom 4:12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which [he had] being [yet] uncircumcised.

Rom 4:16 Therefore [it is] of faith, that [it might be] by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

Not Abraham's faith but in the same manner of the Faith of Abraham, now being the Faith of Jesus Christ.

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Gal 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

Eph 3:12 In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of Him.

Phl 1:27 Only let your conversation be as it becometh the gospel of Christ: that whether I come and see you, or else be absent, I may hear of your affairs, that ye stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel;

Phl 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

Now the most important position a Christian has;

In Christ, and Christ in: Phillip





_________________
Phillip

 2008/2/1 0:42Profile
pastorfrin
Member



Joined: 2006/1/19
Posts: 1406


 Re:

Quote:
Wow! I don't feel alone anymore in this: As is said this scripture in not a refutation of a person unable to loose his salvation, but a conformation of the inability for the Father to make a wrong choice and birthing His Son in a believer that is going to fall away.




Phillip,
Sorry but this is not what the author is saying.

Quote:
Briefly stated, this passage is declaring that:

It is possible for a saved person to fall away
from the faith.

When a saved person falls away from the faith, it does not mean that he was not "born again" initially.

When a saved person falls away from the faith it is possible to restore them, but it is impossible to restore them the same way they were saved the first time. In other words, a person cannot be born again the second time.




Hi Phillip,

Imagine you having a problem with one loosing their salvation. ;-)

These were not posted to argue over if you can or cannot loose your salvation, but in answer to a post that was made awhile back on a thread I cannot seem to locate.

It was stated (as I remember) that Mennonites were the most difficult to lead to the Lord, (insinuating they are not saved) and that those who were believed in ‘eternal security’; as one can see from these articles, these statements are false.


Phillip,

Back to your problem, since you brought it up.
If we are in Him and He in us, then and only then is He our Sabbath, and then and only then is He our peace.
If we cease to walk in Him, we are no longer in Him and He in us. The key word is ‘ceased’ never to walk in Him again.

1 John 1:7-10
But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. [8] If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. [9] If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. [10] If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

When one no longer confesses their sins, they are saying I am good enough the way I am and the truth is not in them. This is where one no longer walks in the light and thus no longer walks in Him.

Why did David pray,

Psalm 51:11
Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.

Because he knew it was possible and thus when one continually refuses to repent and depend on the ‘blood of Jesus Christ’ to cleanse them from their sins, it is then that one commits blasphemy.

1 Tim. 1:13
Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.

Romans 6:16
Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

1 John 5:16
If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.

Matthew 12:32
And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

The sin unto death is rejecting the gift after one has received it and thus it is no longer in ignorance as Paul said in 1 Tim. 1:13 but is done by one in the faith who rejects it.

“There is a sin unto death” John makes it clear, he is talking about those who have received the gift and then rejected it, not as Paul in ignorance.

“ but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.”

Yes Philip, you can and will lose the gift of salvation by turning back to the flesh and continuing to then walk in the flesh; you forfeit His grace.

Is there ‘eternal security’? Yes, as long as one remains “walking in the light as He is in the light.”

In His Love
pastorfrin

 2008/2/1 10:18Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3698
Ca.

 Re:

I have a few questions for you:

What does Born Again mean to you?

Jhn 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Jhn 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

Who are we born of?

1Jo 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

1Jo 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.

1Jo 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

1Jo 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, [even] our faith.

1Jo 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

By whose Incorruptable Seed are the birthed again given eternal life?

1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for His seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Seed; Strong's Greek Dictionary
4690. sperma
Search for G4690 in KJVSL
sperma sperma sper'-mah
from 4687; something sown, i.e. seed (including the male "sperm"); by implication, offspring; specially, a remnant (figuratively, as if kept over for planting):--issue, seed.

Hbr 13:5 [Let your] conversation [be] without covetousness; [and be] content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.

Being born again of Incorruptable Seed:

Hebrews 13:20-21 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

My salvation is not up to me. If God has birthed His Son in me, He will not abort that Incorruptable Seed as man does. It is His Seed and His Work and His Word and His Son, that makes us son's of God, not what we do.

If we could loose our salvation, it would be impossible to crucify the Son of God again. So we cannot loose our salvation, it is impossible.

1Cr 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost [which is] in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

I am not my own, my salvation is His and so am I.

Romans 6:9-11 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

I died with Him, "it is no longer I who live but
Christ who lives in me".

How can Christ deny Himself and He loose His salvation that is in me, the salvation He has become in me?

Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Phl 1:28 And in nothing terrified by your adversaries: which is to them an evident token of perdition, but to you of salvation, and that of God.

Col 1:24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:

"Working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen."


Phillip


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Phillip

 2008/2/2 1:37Profile
pastorfrin
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Joined: 2006/1/19
Posts: 1406


 Re:

Hi Phillip,

According to what you are saying John 3:16
would read like this:
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever (HE) believeth in should not perish, but have everlasting life.

It does not say this, it says:


"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, [u]whosoever believes in him[/u] (puts their trust in him alone for their salvation) should not perish, but have everlasting life."

When you stop trusting you no longer believe, thus you are no longer saved.

John 3:15-17
That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
[16] For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. [17] For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.


Mark 16:15-16
And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. [16] He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

I will stick with the way the Word is written,
you must believe in Him.

Romans 10:13-17
For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. [14] How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? [15] And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! [16] But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? [17] So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.


We [u]must believe in Him to be saved[/u]

I stand with what I have posted in these two articles, You must put your trust in Christ and Him alone to be saved.
It is not whosoever He believes in, but the word says:
[u]whosoever believes in him[/u]

In His Love
pastorfrin

 2008/2/2 11:11Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3698
Ca.

 Re:

Quote:

"""

We must believe in Him to be saved

I stand with what I have posted in these two articles, You must put your trust in Christ and Him alone to be saved.
It is not whosoever He believes in, but the word says:
whosoever believes in him

In His Love
pastorfrin"""



How do we believe?

John 10:25-30 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me. But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. I and my Father are one.

The only way we can believe is to hear His voice, and it is the Father's Grace that gives ears to the hearer and eyes to believer.

I stand on the Word also Pastor, and John 3:16 is for all that believe, and all that believe are called of the Father and given to Jesus Christ and all that are called will believe because no man will believe on his own. It was given Israel for hundreds of years and they did not believe, only those that the Father gave, by His mercy, the capacity to believe and then it was imputed to them righteousness. But now:

We have a Savior Birthed in us because we heard His voice and we believed. Not as anything having to do with me, but it is all of Him.

Because of His Faith we can now have what the old testament saints had outwardly, we now have inwardly. Which is "Christ in you the Hope of Glory", whom He has been made to us righteousness, by the Faith of Jesus Christ given to us by the Father.

Galatians 1:15-16 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace, To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:

By the Faith of Jesus Christ, we believe unto salvation. That will never leave us or He will never forsake us.

Galatians 2:16-17 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.

Are we justified by our works in saying I believe, and I can be an unbeliever?

Is this not, "we ourselves also found to be sinners", because we believe it is ourselves that believe and not the Faith of the Son of God, being the reason we believe unto salvation.
Is this not the same lie that Satan forged from the beginning and Adam fell for it. "Surly you will be as gods". The truth is, it is God who has chosen you from the "foundation of the world", to: Ephesians 1:3-14 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

We are His purchased possession, not His position because we believed on our own.
This is not a lie, as unto Satan's lie, this is the truth that God has placed into every believer by Christ Himself, sealed by the Holy Spirit. Being sealed, we cannot jump our of that sealing by unbelief and falling away.

For: 1 Corinthians 1:29-31 That no flesh should glory in his presence. But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

God has made Him wisdom, that is the wisdom of Christ and that wisdom will not fail, For Christ cannot deny Himself.

Paul spoke this "one word" to all that would listen and they would not. So it was given to the Gentile and they would Hear.

Acts 28:26-28 Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive: For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.

Only one way of hearing and seeing, "they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them."

It is God who converts us and heals us, not by my own works of believing, but by the works of Him who is birthed in us, unto the believing of the truth by His Faith that we are saved.

Who's Faith? Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

How? Galatians 2:19-21 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Ephesians 2:7-10 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

"Ordained", from 4253 and 2090; to fit up in advance (literally or figuratively):--ordain before, prepare afore.

Not frustrating the Grace of God,

In Christ Jesus: Phillip






_________________
Phillip

 2008/2/2 18:44Profile
pastorfrin
Member



Joined: 2006/1/19
Posts: 1406


 Re:

Phillip wrote:

Quote:
How do we believe?




Simple Phillip, as a little child:

Luke 18:17
Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein.

How could a little child understand your extended explanation? They as we must simply believe.



Quote:
Acts 28:26-28 Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive: For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.



Yes Phillip,

That they may hear it, How, "Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God"

Than as a child, we simply believe.

In His Love
pastorfrin

 2008/2/2 19:55Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3698
Ca.

 Re:

That post was not for a child it was for you.

You have answered none of my questions save your own choices.

"faith cometh by hearing" Who's Faith and Who has opened their ears.

I know this is an age old delima and it has been argued since Adam. It takes a revelation of Jesus Christ in the believer for him to know of whom his salvation is.

Gal 1:12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught [it], but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

Received what?

Galatians 1:3-5 Grace be to you and peace from God the Father, and from our Lord Jesus Christ, Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father: To whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Galatians 1:15-16 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace, To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:

In Christ: Phillip


_________________
Phillip

 2008/2/2 20:53Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3698
Ca.

 Re:

It is impossible to clearly understand the meaning of Hebrews 6: 4-6 apart from understanding the precise audience to which Saint Paul was directing his words: those Jews [but surely not all Jews] who had begun their spiritual journies through Baptism, yet who then rejected Christ and His power.

Luk 3:16 John answered, saying unto [them] all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:

Then these verses would not directly apply. Now, Orthodox Christianity does hold that, after one has been "born again" through Baptism and becoming the One Spirit spoken of: These verses can only apply to John's baptism in water of the Jewish hearers.

1Cr 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether [we be] Jews or Gentiles, whether [we be] bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.


This is the separation of the Baptism of Christ in you and the baptism of Hebrews 6. One can surely fall away or "miss the mark" of his or her calling to live in the One Baptism, that is "Christ in you the Hope of Glory". One can surely "de-activate," so to speak, the grace imparted in these circumstances and situations; at the same time, God remains present in such persons, even if they do not recognize or acknowledge it. [It's not as if God says, "Okay, that's it!! You keep sinning, and you don't seem to care about it, so I'm leaving and I'll make sure I never return."] I must put my Son's sacrifice for you out of bounds for you, it just was not strong enough for your situation.

God is everywhere, filling all things -- including the lives of those who have failed to live in accordance with His precepts and even in those who are blatantly evil. As Christ Himself says, God allows the sun to shine and the rain to fall on the good and evil alike, and all are God's children, His creation, worthy of being saved, even if they have yet to "work out [their] own salvation."

This situation in Hebrew 6 certainly is pointing to the Jews that were baptized by John or other of the Apostles and then wanted to go back into the Law and Judaism, thus having to crucify to themselves Christ again. This is not for those that are Born Again in Christ. God is faithful in the birth of His Son in the believer, and He will never allow His Word to return void.

In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2008/2/3 13:35Profile
pastorfrin
Member



Joined: 2006/1/19
Posts: 1406


 Re: Believe

Hi Phillip,

Acts 16:30-32
And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? [31] And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. [32] And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.

"what must I do to be saved?"

"Believe on the Lord Lord Jesus Christ,"

"and thou shalt be saved,"

Yup, believe and receive as a little child,

Luke 18:17
Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein.


John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.


Believe, trusting fully in Jesus as a little child, for salvation. Believe!

You make it way to complicated, Brother.

In His Love
pastorfrin

 2008/2/4 21:29Profile





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