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Discussion Forum : Articles and Sermons : To The Prisoners - Fox

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 Re:

quote:
Fox would be grieved over what is called friends today. The quakers are very very far from the original. Personally I see barely any connect in most friends societies.

[b]Most of the modern quakers are "apostate" and do not have the experience of regeneration. This was not so back in George Fox's day when many were regenerated and came to know Christ in a real way experiencing new birth.

Most of quakers are now "liberal" and do not believe the bible truly as the revelation of God whereas George Fox memorized the entire bible and esteemed it "truth". [/b]

quakerism is NOT bible centric anymore but it definitely had the foundation of the scriptures before ie George Fox's teachings.

I would not recommend anyone to attend friends societies in our day, I am sure there could be a few good fellowships but overall spirituality, extreme feminism, homosexuality and many other vices parade UNCHECKED in our day.

Also doctrinal apathy such on topics such as HELL! George Fox affirmed his belief in hell many times as a eternal place of punishment and suffering.

But modern quakers reject these type of ideas over "new revelation" from the light within.


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SI Moderator - Greg Gordon

 2008/1/31 13:33Profile









 Re:

yeah, and without the "liberal" Friends in the vein of such people as Lucretia Mott and John Woolman, we would still have slavery, corporal punishment instead of prisons, women would not be able to vote, conscientious objectors would be imprisoned, and i could go on and on. . .

these people followed the Light with perseverance and fortitude and challenged those who claimed that the Bible was on their side: slavery is not forbidden in the Bible, women are secondary citizens, homosexuals are to be stoned etc.

you cant have the benefits and accuse the liberal philosophy from which it arose of being apostate.

bub

 2008/1/31 14:45
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 Re:

Quote:

bubbaguy wrote:

from what Fox said about the words of the Bible being appropriate in context of the time they were spoken, but not necessarily outside of that context, i can only put my personal feelings aside and pray that Meetings that are inclusive are following the Leadings of the Holy Spirit as made known to them.




If this is what modern "Friends" actually believe-- that we're in a different "context" these days, and so homosexuality okay now, and the Holy Spirit makes known to some groups that it is okay, and to others it is not... it is no wonder that the new-found interest in George Fox is coming from outside Quaker circles.

Fox taught no such thing, and in fact taught that the seventeenth-century Friends were in the same Light and Spirit and "context" as the early apostles were. Read and see what they had to say about this issue.

AD


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Allan Halton

 2008/1/31 17:18Profile









 Re:


AD,

the different context we are in now is that we know that approximately 10% of the human population is genetically predisposed to being homosexual. God made these people this way.

the differenct context we are in today recognizes that diseases are not caused by demon posession, but that they have a biological explaination that has nothing to do with a person's spirituality.

the point that Fox made is that the words of the Bible need to be taken in the context that they were made. People at that time were confused about many things that we know better about today. For example, retarded and physically handicapped people are not to be shunned because they have a bad spirit or were cursed by God. We understand today that these people are differently abled than most and that God has a purpose and plan for them, as well.

Jesus commanded us to love one another as He loves us. And within some Monthly Meetings of the Religious Society of Friends the members have chosen to accept homosexual people as they are. And the same covenants that apply to heterosexual couples (fidelity etc.) apply. (and so sexual perversions are still unacceptable.)

as I stated before, i am not comfortable with homosexual marriages being performed in these Meetings. (the conservative Friends meeting i attend now in Minneapolis is certainly not one of these.) but still i understand and accept their reasons for doing so and i am not about to throw away the many important aspects of the Religious Society of Friends because some Friends have differing positions on this issue.

bub

 2008/2/1 10:47
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 Re:

Quote:
the different context we are in now is that we know that approximately 10% of the human population is genetically predisposed to being homosexual. God made these people this way.

the differenct context we are in today recognizes that diseases are not caused by demon posession, but that they have a biological explaination that has nothing to do with a person's spirituality.

the point that Fox made is that the words of the Bible need to be taken in the context that they were made. People at that time were confused about many things that we know better about today. For example, retarded and physically handicapped people are not to be shunned because they have a bad spirit or were cursed by God. We understand today that these people are differently abled than most and that God has a purpose and plan for them, as well.



You are not in the "same spirit" as George Fox.


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SI Moderator - Greg Gordon

 2008/2/1 11:01Profile
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 Re:

Quote:

bubbaguy wrote:

the different context we are in now is that we know that approximately 10% of the human population is genetically predisposed to being homosexual. God made these people this way.

the differenct context we are in today recognizes that diseases are not caused by demon posession, but that they have a biological explaination that has nothing to do with a person's spirituality.

the point that Fox made is that the words of the Bible need to be taken in the context that they were made. People at that time were confused about many things that we know better about today. For example, retarded and physically handicapped people are not to be shunned because they have a bad spirit or were cursed by God. We understand today that these people are differently abled than most and that God has a purpose and plan for them, as well.



Sir, this is very dangerous doctrine that you are believing. Consider it as a mercy from God that you are here on SI and someone can expose your doctrine. Synchronize your teachings with the word of God. You are totally off road with this.

 2008/2/1 12:09Profile
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 Re:

Quote:

bubbaguy wrote:

the different context we are in now is that we know that approximately 10% of the human population is genetically predisposed to being homosexual. God made these people this way.




Bub,

You say "we know..." but this far from being proven science.

But even if I were to grant you this point, "it was not so in the beginning." God made them male and female in the beginning, and joined them together the male and the female.

After that-- and this is the thing people forget-- Adam (with Eve) fell. They of Adam's race are in a fallen condition (although the more accurate scriptural description is "dead").

"In the day that ye eat thereof ye shall die."

And THAT is what accounts for homosexuality (along with a long list of other things). They of Adam are "dead in trespasses and sins." And there is only One Answer for us all.

What say the Scriptures?

"Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived (mark that word, deceived): neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate (ie, those who are as women), nor abusers of themselves with mankind, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God" (1 Cor. 5.9,10).

So, this is very clear in the Scriptures. Yet you (not George Fox) are saying we are in a different "context" now, and the words above that refer to homosexuality are to be lifted from the list, for they no longer apply. We know better now, and homosexuality is not sin. What's to prevent us from cutting any of those other things from the list, then?

I have read Fox'es writings, and he speaks clearly against homosexuality (Complete Works, Volume 6, pages 77-88).

You say that Fox taught that "the words of the Bible need to be taken in the context they were made." He taught no such thing. What he did say was that the only way the Scriptures could be correctly interpreted was to be in the same Light and Spirit in which they were written in the first place. And because He was a man of the Spirit and of the Light, he came down again and again on the apostate religious system of his day and brought the Spirit, AND the Scriptures, to bear upon them.

You say, Bub, that "people at that time were confused about many things we know better about today." (Is it necessary to suggest that the confusion of our day eclipses anything back then?) ...But Fox, who was way ahead of his day, did not add to the confusion by picking and choosing which Scriptures he wanted to accept, and which to reject.

Fox was a man of the Scriptures; you can't read his writings without marvelling at how steeped he was in the Scriptures.

As to the attitude of people in Bible days, or in Fox'es days, toward the handicapped, or the retarded... that they "had a bad spirit or were cursed by God," yes, there was a lot of ignorance about such things, ignorance due to the Darkness upon them: they did not know the True Light, and so, did not know The Scriptures in their True Light.

Let us not be as equally ignorant. Pay attention to the Spirit of God, and to the Scriptures. It's only The True Light-- and the Scriptures bear witness to Him-- that dispels darkness and ignorance.

I encourage you to follow this through. You will see, if you read carefully, that Jesus sometimes healed people of a disease just by speaking a word, and then again, sometimes He cast out a demon to heal a person of a disease. Because, Jesus had discernment, and knew whether the disease was simply resulting from the condition of fallen Adam, which also affected the body... or something further: a demon being involved. Not all disease is demonic, although some is, and Jesus the Light could see the difference. (Read and see. I can't take the time to enlarge on it here; it's easy enough to search out in the Gospels.)

...Bub, I want to conclude by mentioning something that is very beautiful to me.

Notice the verse that follows the list (it's only a partial list) Paul made of those who will not inherit the kingdom of God (in the passage I quoted above).

"And such were some of you: BUT YE ARE WASHED, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the Name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of God" (vs. 11).

This is very beautiful to me. Even in Paul's day, there were homosexuals (yes, other sinners, obviously, but homosexuals, too, just as obviously) who had come in contact with the living Christ because of the SPIRIT OF CHRIST that was there in the Church... and they had turned to Jesus, and had been washed from their sins in Blood in the Stream of the Spirit of God. What joy! There is not a human condition however sinful that our Lord Jesus Christ, in His sacrifice on the Cross, has not reached into, and redeemed.

"For the law of the Spirit of LIFE in Christ Jesus hath made me FREE from the Law of sin and death."

Is it... You're not telling me... Are there actually such words? There's a Law that makes me FREE from the Law of sin and death? Can I have actually read that? Is that actually TRUE?

His love has no measure.

If modern "friends" so hate the homosexuals as to teach them that they are okay in their condition... this knows nothing of the love of Christ for them: CHRIST JESUS, the Son of God's LOVE, who revealed the love of God in the Cross, redeeming us from sin and death (the state of sin and death we are in) and bringing us into this wondrous Kingdom of Life he has for us... "the Kingdom of the Son of His love," which, you get even a glimpse of this beautiful Kingdom, and it just... you are just undone!

And you would exclude the homosexual from THAT?

Why do you hate them? (I am not saying "you" personally, Bub, but those who think they are advocating FOR them when they try to persuade them their condition is not sin.)

They, and we, whoever we are who turn to the Lord Jesus Christ, are WASHED, sanctified, justified, "in the Name of the Lord Jesus...

"...AND BY THE SPIRIT OF GOD."

The washing they need, we all need, is in the Spirit of God. Are we giving the Spirit of God His LORDSHIP in the Church? All that is in the Name of the Lord Jesus, and all the wealth of that... is made real in our lives BY THE SPIRIT OF GOD.

And we Christians, who love the homosexuals... it is because we love them that we want them to know their need for the Salvation of Christ, and have a part in that beautiful Kingdom.

And if we love them, we know it just doesn't do what needs to be done... to merely tell them this is wrong in God's sight, and we stand against it and them. Too often there has been a kind of attitude amongst us that turns the gays dead cold against Christ.

It's my opinion that the reason there is such a strong expression of homosexuality in out day is because of the lukewarm, backslidden, apostate condition of the Church. That's the way it was in Lot's day. That's the way it was in that horrible story in the book of the Judges, when there was no King in Israel, and every man did what was right in their own eyes.

It seems that when God's people are in a weakened state, homosexuality grows very strong.

The homosexuals need to see The Real Christ, and they are not seeing Him. It is not enough that Christ is in Heaven. He must be HERE, His Spirit and PRESENCE in His Church, if we are to reach fallen men with the love of God.

They need to repent. The homosexuals need to repent.

But if we are going to see that, we need to repent first.

AD






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Allan Halton

 2008/2/1 14:23Profile









 Re:

AD, a good post.

when we understand that our own sins are as bad as any, we can realize that demonizing others (homosexuals) because we don't understand or are fearful of their sins is a waste of time and hypocritical.

Paul's list is way too short. Since we began killing and eating animals (the "forbidden fruit" by my reconning, see Genesis 1:29) our path has been one of destruction, violence, war, torture, etc. etc. etc.

living life within this path itself is enough to make people lose their minds and become deranged. but i doubt that homosexuality came about because of the fall of man. the reason is that it is also present in the animal kingdom. did they also fall? willfully disobey God? i don't think so.

The Good News of Jesus and our salvation is the Truth that I get from the Bible. from our study of geology, space, chemistry, biology (genetics), physics, etc. come other truths that need to be considered, as well. None of these will ever contradict the Good News, but they may well amend Biblical stories of our origins and place in the universe. The implications and accounts of these OT stories of our relationship with our Creator, though, are not undone by scientific discovery.

If Adam was an individual or whether Adam generically means men does not change the fact of original sin and disobedience. The details are different; the outcome for people today is the same.

this may seem strange, but i am content with the Bible whether or not it is inerrant, whether or not some stories are factual and others are parable. in the end, either way the message is the same: Love the Lord your God with all your heart and soul and love your neighbor as yourself.

homosexuals can read the Bible and decide for themselves how they should live. what i am tired of is them being whipping posts for righteous hypocrits. moreover i don't think accusing them of their sins will change them. it is part of their nature.

like many things in life, the answer to this quandary is not clear. we can only muddle through. and i think those Quakers who are being inclusive of gays are doing the best that they are able to.

bub

 2008/2/1 15:54
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 Re:

Quote:

bubbaguy wrote:

like many things in life, the answer to this quandary is not clear. we can only muddle through. and i think those Quakers who are being inclusive of gays are doing the best that they are able to.



Bub,

Thanks for your response, but I will have to say you and I are "not on the same page" here. We definitely don't have to "muddle through" if we are willing to humble ourselves before the Truth, and agree with HIM.

"In Thy light shall we see light" (Ps. 36.9).

...I'll leave this with you. I don't think I'm feeling much inclined to pursue this thread further.

AD


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Allan Halton

 2008/2/1 16:46Profile





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