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Joined: 2007/4/25
Posts: 1529
Scotland, UK


I should have said ealier. I got what I posted earlier from a John Wesley sermon.

The link to the sermon

Colin Murray

 2008/1/27 6:51Profile

Joined: 2007/12/21
Posts: 83



theopenlife wrote:
I suppose I am amongst those who believe all saints, both of the Old and New Testament eras, were born again.

For obvious reasons, I do not believe Old Testament believers received the "gift" of the Holy Spirit in the same sense as New Testament believers, but I do believe all saints who ever lived passed through a change of life so spiritually significant that it would be described best as a "new birth", and that this "repentance unto faith" was wrought in all times by the Spirit.

Rather than reiterating what has been put forth more clearly elsewhere, I will give you a link to Matthew Henry's complete commentary for John 3:

[url=]Matthew Henry - Complete - John 3[/url]

I am leaning this way too. Although, even Henry isn't clear on the OT saints. Paul is clear that "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." Every believer needs a heart-change. Jesus castigated the Pharisees for following just the letter of the law, David loved the law and hid it in his heart. The law didn't save, the blood of bulls and goats didn't save, but the sacrifice of God is "a broken and contrite heart," both for the OT saint and the Christian.

It is really a passage to gnaw on, isn't it?



 2008/1/27 7:00Profile

Joined: 2006/11/24
Posts: 61
Rockland MA


Just wondering,If God is declaring Job "Perfect and upright man,one that feareth God and escheweth evil" or "Blameless and upright man" or one translation says "Righteous" wouldnt that mean that He is exactly what God says he is,In other words if Job is corrupt of Himself and He points this out in his book,Yet God declares Him "Righteous,Perfect,Blameless" where else could he recieve this imputed gift of righteousness but from God as a grace gift though faith,In other word I believe God declares us righteous,perfect,blameless because of Christ's atonement for us,perhaps somehow he believed and God declared Him perfect just like us,In other words if God delares us righteous wouldnt that make us "Born Again" or "Saved" I dont have time to add scripture now as my children are sick and need my love



 2008/1/27 8:10Profile

Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 1230


caldwell 1, The sacrifice of the perfect righteous and blameless one Jesus should be our banner and focus....Amen?
These men Job, daniel,Moses, David,Noah,etc.,did sin and,deserved less than what they got.
us too.
If this is approached in the light of sin[unrighteousness] and animal sacrifice then the patriarchs covenant was just as effective as the new covenant.
therefore if they are born again it would have had to have happened through the new covenant.

I dont think the new birth is a declaration of heaven. It is a work done in and on our spirit man.
In other words we are born again .
We are declared righteous.
But what does God do first ?
Are there stages?
does everything happen at once?
It seems to be different for most everyone.

I dont know, but there doesnt seem to be enough there to ascribe born again to the patriarchs.
In fact there is not a whole lot on the subject where the phrase "born again" is found in the word


 2008/1/27 10:52Profile

Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 926


Hey DavyMan, I'm following what you're saying.

What comes to mind is that, in Romans, we are told that it is not circumcision of the flesh which makes one a Jew, but circumcision of the heart. One of the prophets reproves the unbelieving Jews by saying, "ye uncircumcised in heart!" In a similar way Jesus tells us that "If your eye causes you to sin, cut it off." What the Spirit teaches us is that our hands and eyes do not cause us to sin; rather, all sin proceeds from the heart, i.e. our original nature.

What Jesus and the prophets taught was that all men coming to God must have their old natures cut off, as it were, not by hard work and self discipline, but by a revelation of the shamefulness of their sin in the light of God's glorious free offer of salvation in His Redeemer. Those who saw this, both in Old and New Testament era, were "born again", I believe, in the sense that from that point they had a right standing with God on the basis of grace. Their grace-life had begun.

This is not to be confused with the special benefits of the Holy Spirit poured out on New Testament believers. Nevertheless, the whole scriptures speak to the effect that in this life all people must be born again to see the kingdom of God.

May God bless our studies,

 2008/1/27 11:03Profile

Joined: 2007/1/21
Posts: 528
Southern USA

 Re: Was Job born again?

Good morning davyman Thanks for a good work.

Justified [by God] had the same meaning in Job’s day as it does to day.

I believe Job is an esample to us of
1[Justification - By God
2[Regeneration -By Lord God
3[Sanctification-By Lord God.

Some people believe in Sanctification before Regeneration.
And some believe in Justification by works.

All the Justified suffer to the point we have no hope but in God.

And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless. Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness, there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. For many are called, but few are chosen


 2008/1/27 12:29Profile


Openlife said: Those who saw this, both in Old and New Testament era, were "born again", I believe, in the sense that from that point they had a right standing with God on the basis of grace. Their grace-life had begun.

Old Testament people were "Born Again"? "Their Grace-Life had begun"?? Where in the Old Testament were any man lived under grace?
John 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

It seems that before the law was given there was grace from the LORD to certain men, but after the law was given it seems to be lacking.

Openlife you've dropped a bomb here that needs to be explained further, can you please elaborate on your findings?

Can you tell us how these men received unmerited favour without the works of the law? Either they lived under grace or lived under law.

 2008/1/27 12:56

Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 926


No bombs intended! :-D

Compliments wrote:

Where in the Old Testament were any man lived under grace?

This is simply what I read here: (I realize it is long, perhaps you can just skim and pay special attention to bold areas?)

Romans 4

6 Even as [b]David also describes the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputes righteousness without works,
7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin. [/b]
9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.
10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.
11 And [b]he received the sign[/b] of circumcision, a seal of [b]the righteousness of the faith which he had[/b] yet being uncircumcised: that he might be [b]the father of all them that believe[/b], though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.
13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:
15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; [b]not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,[/b]
17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.
18 Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.
19 And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sara's womb:
20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
22 And therefore [b]it was imputed to him for righteousness.[/b]
23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that [b]it was imputed to him[/b];
24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.


My understanding is simply that during the time of the Old Covenant Law, from Moses to Christ, those who believed on the mercy of God as it was promised to Eve, and who looked for the righteousness which is afforded by grace according to such promises as are seen in Psalms, Isaiah, and Ezekiel, even these experienced the mercies of God despite their imperfect awareness of it. These were the ones "hidden in the cave" during Elijah's day, as it were, the "remnant according to grace", who God preserved through faith in His kindness apart from personal fulfillment of the Law.

I'm no expert, this is simply the scripture as I read it.


 2008/1/28 0:40Profile

 Re: Was Job born again?

Almost by chance... (but we know [i]that[/i] cannot be)... I came across a thread on healing on Ron Bailey's website, which offers this insight from him.

[color=000066]" Here's a question for you... is forgiveness available outside a covenant? The answer I suggest must be yes because God 'justified' Abraham 'by faith' before He entereed into covenant with him. Justification can precede covenant. It was a gift only available to faith. Justification is not the same as regeneration. Men and women were 'justified by faith' prior to and within the 'Old Covenant'.

Note that when I say 'Old Covenant' I don't mean the Old Testament but that part of the Old Testament which begins at Exodus 24:8 and finishes at to John 19:30. Strictly speaking Gen - Exodus 24 is not the Old Testament. This may be pedantry but it is not 'mere' pedantry in this case but a vital distinction. The references to a replacement new covenant in Hebrews are not refereces to Abraham but to Moses and his people. You might call it a Judaic Covenant or Mosaic Covenant. Abraham's covenant was earlier than this, but 'justification by faith' as exampled in the life of Abraham precedes even Abraham's covenant.

The thing about covenant is that is fixes things for the duration of the covenant. Justification by faith is not the theme of the Abrahamic Covenant nor the Old (Mosaic) Covenant or.. and this might surprise you... the New Covenant. Justification by faith is available, apparantly 'outside' covenant.

God does not only operate in covenant. The healing of the Roman's centurian's servant did not arise from any covenant privilege nor did the deliverance of the Syro-Phoenician's daughter. Nor does the promise of healing in Exodus 15 arise from any covenant privilege. The covenant is not enjoined and brought into force until Exodus 24. It is a condiitional promise not a covenant blessing; do you see my distinction? I believe justification by faith is the same.

The basis of all God's dealings with mankind is the cross. Without that penal substitution God could only act in retribution against mankind. The list of folk 'justified by faith' in Hebrews 11 is instructive. None of these people put their faith in the facts of Calvary, but in the God of Calvary. They all received 'righteousness which is by faith' but without a clear revelation of the means by which God made that possible...."[/color]

[url=]From Ron Bailey's first post on this page[/url]

 2008/1/28 1:09

Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4794


Job 33:16 Then he openeth the ears of men, and sealeth their instruction,

Job 33:17 That he may withdraw man [from his] purpose, and hide pride from man.

Job 33:18 He keepeth back his soul from the pit, and his life from perishing by the sword.

Job 33:19 ¶ He is chastened also with pain upon his bed, and the multitude of his bones with strong [pain]:

Job 33:20 So that his life abhorreth bread, and his soul dainty meat.

Job 33:21 His flesh is consumed away, that it cannot be seen; and his bones [that] were not seen stick out.

Job 33:22 Yea, his soul draweth near unto the grave, and his life to the destroyers.

Job 33:23 ¶ If there be a messenger with him, an interpreter, one among a thousand, to shew unto man his uprightness:

Job 33:24 Then he is gracious unto him, and saith, Deliver him from going down to the pit: I have found a ransom.

Job 33:25 His flesh shall be fresher than a child's: he shall return to the days of his youth:

Job 33:26 He shall pray unto God, and he will be favourable unto him: and he shall see his face with joy: for he will render unto man his righteousness.

Job 33:27 He looketh upon men, and [if any] say, I have sinned, and perverted [that which was] right, and it profited me not;

Job 33:28 He will deliver his soul from going into the pit, and his life shall see the light.

Job 33:29 Lo, all these [things] worketh God oftentimes with man,

Job 33:30 To bring back his soul from the pit, to be enlightened with the light of the living.

In this section of Scripture we find that God is gracious to those who turn toward Him. The result is that in verse 25 the man becomes a child again. The result of verse 26 is that God restore His righteousness in this man. The result of verse 28 is that this man is "enlightened with the light of the living."

Likewise this promise is also given to us in Proverbs 1.

Pro 1:23 Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you.

Like Pentecost, the Lord poured out His Spirit on all who turn towards Him. NT or OT. The word of God is true and does not come back void.

In Christ

Jeff Marshalek

 2008/1/28 8:28Profile

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