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davyman
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Joined: 2007/12/21
Posts: 83


 Was Job born again?

I read in another post that Job was in heaven, but not born again. This disturbed me. In Rom. 4:3 and Gal. 3:6, Paul quotes Genesis 15:6: "And he believed in the Lord, and he counted it to him for righteousness." , to show that we are saved the same way as Abraham was before the law.

The very passage we get the term "born again" from was taught to an Old Testament Jew "Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews" (John 3:1). When Nicodemus expressed his surprise at this, "Jesus answered him, Are you the teacher of Israel and yet you do not understand these things?" (John 3:10). Jesus admonished Nicodemus because he didn't see the concept of being born again from his understanding of the Old Testament scriptures.

Salvation has always been by grace through faith based upon the shed blood of Jesus Christ, the lamb who was slain before the foundation of the world as seen by Zechariah's testimony in Luke 1:69-70: "And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David; As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began."

The means of salvation of God has not changed, but the manner has. The Old Testament saints were saved based on God's grace, through faith, by the blood of Jesus. It was, in their case, based on the vision of the perfect sacrifice to come. Indeed, even Job proclaimed his hope in a redeemer: "For I know that my Redeemer lives, and at the last he will stand upon the earth. And after my skin has been thus destroyed, yet in my flesh I shall see God,whom I shall see for myself, and my eyes shall behold, and not another. My heart faints within me!" (Job 19:25-27).

 2008/1/26 8:57Profile
psalm1
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Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 1230


 Re: Was Job born again?

Hi davyman, One thing that i may add....When witnessing to an unbeliever I usually tell them they must be born again.
I dont know that rebirth applies to one that is deceased.
Consider that the patriarchs that were in paradise received the gospel when Jesus descended.
1peter 4 says the gospel was preached to those that were dead.
Jesus took captivity captive when he ascended to heaven.
You raise some interesting points and I am still pondering them.
But I dont know if you are inferring that Christ's blood was applied to the patriarchs before he ascended and handed his blood to the father?

David

 2008/1/26 9:38Profile
davyman
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Joined: 2007/12/21
Posts: 83


 Re:

This is conjecture, I am writing off the cuff. I am more intrigued that Jesus told Nicodemus that he must be born again before the cross, before the resurrection, even before the initiation of the new covenant at the last supper.

Of course, I would agree that the actual blood of Christ could not be appropriated before it was actually shed. That is why I agree there is a difference in the method of salvation. We are born again by the completed work of Christ in history. The OT saints were born again by looking toward the work to come. Salvation has always been by grace through faith. The essence of being born again is trusting in Christ (I'm trying not to stir up the Calvinism debate), which requires a changed heart.

 2008/1/26 9:54Profile









 Re: Was Job born again?



Hello davyman,

I've posted in many threads on the view that the OT saints were not born again, although I agree completely that they were saved. I believe Paul's theses in Romans, Galatians and Heb 3:5 and 6, shed light on the reasons for this.

The abiding and binding similarity between the salvation of OT saints (right up to John the Baptist) and NT saints, is the necessity of faith in what God said to them (the OT saints) and their obedience to His leadings.

In the OT we see, as it were in slow motion, what it is to be obedient to God's word, through a steady presentation of all the issues that will face Christians. Even the term 'Christian' cannot be applied to the OT saints, saved though they are. We are indebted to the Lord Himself for making us sure of this - that they are 'living'. I firmly believe we are all part of the same body - the Church.

There is perhaps the clearest picture in the OT of the whole of biblical history in a nutshell, in the story of Abraham sending his servant to find a wife for Isaac. Isaac was the true son - the promised seed - who would inherit everything (as we see in the narrative that he did) - for whom a bride was sought - by the servant.

Of course, Jesus Christ fulfilled all the roles, being both Son and Servant, but, as with Paul's mention of

EDIT: It's ok, I realise I was mixing up Galatians and Hebrews and that we don't [i]know[/i] that Paul wrote Hebrews.... So, when I said 'Moses in Galatians' I meant.... the writer of the Hebrew's reference to Moses noted somewhere later in this post; BIG apologies! end edit.

the servant never inherits the house and the ultimate power over it or freedom which sonship bestows. In a way, that Abraham was concerned he may have to leave his 'house' to his 'servant' is a line in the sand, as God's response was, in effect [i]absolutely not![/i] - there [i]will be a son![/i] on whom you can legitimately bestow everything.


The other major strand of OT revelation on this, is the journey God makes from being completely separate from man when He walked with Adam in the Garden, to walking [u]with[/u] man [i]after[/i] the golden calf (from which time he could be [i]seen[/i] no more), to appearing in clouds in the Tabernacle and the Temple, but never being able to reside there because of the idolatry which symbolised the need for 'the new heart' and 'a new spirit'.

Following the ministry of John the Baptist, whose preparatory call to the baptism of repentance had been remarkably successful across the land, this is what makes Pentecost vitally different.

It is possible to see all through the OT that God empowered men for ministry through an anointing of the Holy Spirit, and always, had a personal relationship with the men He anointed.

This matter of relationship is radically changed by the recognition that 'our old man' was crucified with Christ. Because of this, we can receive the spirit of adoption, by which we cry 'Father!' This very real difference, can be studied in scripture, taking note of how Jesus was in big trouble with the authorities for alluding to His Father way beyond the previously accepted, but.... only ceremonial.... naming of God as 'Father' which was formally recognised within the Jewish religion.


David's point about preaching new birth to the living, is a new thought to me.

To balance this, if you search for 'Adam' in the parting of the Jordan, you'll find the waters pile up all the way (back) to a village or city 'of Adam'. Symbollically, I believe this can be understood as a reference to Christ's death being inclusive of\for [u]all[/u] who ever lived under the death sentence through Adam's sin; that God might be righteous beyond all human reasoning, and the justifier of all who believe. As it is written 'the just shall [u]live[/u] by faith' (Rom 1:17, Hab 2:4); that is 'faith in the Son of God' (Gal 2:20).



 2008/1/26 10:50
PreachParsly
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Joined: 2005/1/14
Posts: 2164
Arkansas

 Re:

I believe most consider being "born again" synonymous with regeneration- which is considered receiving a new heart and a new mind. That only comes in the new covenant. Chances are this is where the speaker you were listening to was coming from.

[color=0000FF]Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
Heb 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
[/color]


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Josh Parsley

 2008/1/26 11:44Profile
davyman
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Joined: 2007/12/21
Posts: 83


 Re:

Why does Jesus teach this to Nicodemus before the initiation of the New Covenant? Nicodemus would be one described as an OT saint. Again, this teaching was prior to Ascension, Resurrection, Burial, Death on the cross, or the Lord's Supper. Why does he indicate that Nicodemus should understand this doctrine from OT scriptures?

David prayed "create in me a clean heart . . ." Is this not a desire for regeneration? Is this a premature prayer, since the Messiah hadn't appeared?


SDG,

Dave

 2008/1/26 12:28Profile
davyman
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Joined: 2007/12/21
Posts: 83


 Re:

BTW, I'm really chewing on this. I don't have a preconception. I'd like to see dialogue both ways.


SDG,

Dave

 2008/1/26 12:30Profile
murrcolr
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Joined: 2007/4/25
Posts: 1529
Scotland, UK

 Re:

davyman I to am very interested in Job.

Job 1 v 1 There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and turned away from evil.

Job 1 v 8 And Jehovah said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job? for there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and turneth away from evil.

You can find in the verses quote above that Job was perfect, an upright man, one that fears God and turns from evil. None on earth like him.

So what does Job believe.
Job 1 v 5 And it was so, when the days of their feasting were gone about, that Job sent and sanctified them, and rose up early in the morning, and offered burnt-offerings according to the number of them all: for Job said, It may be that my sons have sinned, and renounced God in their hearts. Thus did Job continually.

So Job was concerned about his children that they would renounce God in there hearts.
Job was aware of that you had to believe and accept God with your heart. Not a outward sign but a inward belief in God with your heart. That was the test on Jobs life. Satan was given permission by God to test Job in this area.

Job 1 v 11-12 But put forth thy hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will renounce thee to thy face. And Jehovah said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thy hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of Jehovah.

Renounce meaning To give up, To reject; disown.

The test was to see if Job would give up his heart belief in God. That he would reject God in his heart.

I would say by looking at these verses that Job believed in God with his heart and because of that he was perfect and upright in Gods eyes.

John 6 v 47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth hath eternal life.
-------------------------------------------------------------

But there is more to come in Jobs life if you go through to the end of the book of Job. Today many men speak a lot about Job getting everything back 7 times and he did cause the bible tells us that but look at this verses.

Job 42 v 5-6 I had heard of thee by the hearing of the ear; But now mine eye seeth thee: Wherefore I abhor myself , And repent in dust and ashes.

God did a deeper work in Jobs heart. Job says here that in the past he had heard of God with his ear. He had heard about God and believed in his heart. But know he goes on to say that he can now see God with his eyes.

Know Job was not only perfect, upright and one that fears God and turns from evil God did a second work in Jobs life through the testing.

He says he saw God and when he saw God he looked at himself and know he loathed himself and repented. God purified Jobs heart.

Mat 5 v 8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.

How much people today who know Jesus can say they are pure in heart.


_________________
Colin Murray

 2008/1/26 13:04Profile









 Re:

Quote:
David prayed "create in me a clean heart . . ." Is this not a desire for regeneration? Is this a premature prayer, since the Messiah hadn't appeared?

It certainly was a desire, but that desire like the desire of many of those that saw the kingdom of God (New Jerusalem) and could not obtain it because it was not yet made available while the first Temple was still standing.
Quote:
Hebrews 9:8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:Hebrews 9:9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;Hebrews 9:10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, [b]imposed on them until the time of the reformation[/b].

This was the way to be at peace with God (which was only temporary)before the cross, before the reformation. The person was never born again because his conscience was still burdened down with sin and death (separation from God).

Jesus told Nicodemus the prerequisites to both seeing and entering the Kingdom of God. The LORD could not give it to him because He had not yet died and the existing Temple in Jerusalem was not yet destroyed. The destruction of the Temple signified that that Christ promised what He said to the Jews referring to the Temple and that the Kingdom of God which was "at hand" was now ruling and reigning in the hearts of men.
Quote:
Why does Jesus teach this to Nicodemus before the initiation of the New Covenant?

Jesus taught many things regarding the Kingdom of God/Heaven, and not just to Nicodemus. Jesus was preaching the Good News that was coming. "Repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand". Our LORD spoke of the foundations of our Christian doctrines before the cross. Many many things regarding regeneration and the Kingdom of God were spoken of. He spoke of the Sower of the Seed this too is in reference to being born again.

 2008/1/26 14:09
psalm1
Member



Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 1230


 Re:

Hi Davyman, Really no matter how you slice it ,the requirements of God remain the requirements.
Must enter through the blood.
I dont know how King David Or Nicodemus or the patriarchs could have been born again,and would have to assume Jesus was looking foreward when he made his statement to Nicodemus.
There is a transition period between the two testaments.
The new testament couldn't be ratified until the death of the testator.
Blood covenant.
I believe all persons dying before Jesus presented his blood as our high priest, went to paradise as did the thief on the cross.
Jesus told the thief"today you will be with me in paradise"......not heaven because he told Mary ".....I haven't ascended to my father"
This is what I believe the bible teaches.....Justification through faith prior to Jesus' ascension.
The justified then saved by the preaching of the gospel in paradise.
All men saved after Jesus presented his blood to the father was through the born again experience and the shed blood of Jesus.

There is a third dimension to salvation.....No sacrifice had ever came back to life.
All the events leading up to the resurrection were in a sense so that there could be a "dead one brought back to life"
In other words without the empty tomb the cross would have been made void.


David

 2008/1/26 14:15Profile





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