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dbm
Member



Joined: 2007/9/17
Posts: 31
Lisle, Illinois

 How are people dealing with the Real ID act as Christians?

I was wondering how everyone is dealing with the Real ID act in the United States. Some states are fighting it, but it looks like federal mandates will make it mandatory by 2009 or 2010 if everything goes according to their schedule.

Peter calls us to obey the laws of the state/country and to accept the rulings of the secular leaders. I've been praying on it, but I am still hesitant to accept this change.

David


_________________
David

 2008/1/23 16:21Profile
MSeaman
Member



Joined: 2005/4/19
Posts: 772
Michigan

 Re: How are people dealing with the Real ID act as Christians?

What is the Real ID act? Not that I'm not going to immediately look it up, but without having that information I can't respond properly.


_________________
Melissa

 2008/1/23 16:34Profile
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4499


 Re: How are people dealing with the Real ID act as Christians?

Hi dbm...

Is it possible to be more specific? Are there specific issues related to this Act that you oppose? If so, could you list those as written within the Act itself?

From what I understand, this ID is simply a State driver's license which would be difficult to counterfeit (because your information is verified by the Federal Government). It would also serve as a quasi-passport, being required upon admission back into the United States (currently, you are required to show your passport and an official photo id). The legislators who are trying to implement this are hoping to stop illegal immigration (since some states make it very easy to obtain a driver's license and fake passport), as well as curtail possible actions of terrorists.

Anyway, I am interested in your hesitations, as well as how they would relate to the Scriptures.

:-)


_________________
Christopher

 2008/1/23 16:35Profile
dbm
Member



Joined: 2007/9/17
Posts: 31
Lisle, Illinois

 Re:

Its a complex issue.

I am employed in the field of healthcare IT where they are currently implementing a system called Electronic Medical Records. The full implementation involves state level databases of medical records, financial information, mental health records, etc. from everyone who visits a hospital. Along with this is the Veri-Chip which is an implantable chip that contains this information accessible in an RFID format.

The Clinton administration tied alot of their healthcare reform acts to assessment testing in public schools allowing a cross communication of health records and school records. There have been moves to require mandatory mental health testing for all public school children.

The Real ID is the beginning of a similar database system only tied to the drivers license. In its first implementation it will be only a scannable ID card, however eventually it will include RFID technology as well. At the moment they just don't have the funding.

The EMR system is based on punch card technology initially implemented in 1890 for the US census; 1890 was the same year that the US implemented its eugenics program (ie. planned parenthood, forced sterilization of "unfit parents") That same punch card technology was sold by IBM to the Nazis for use in managing the concentration camps. The numbers tattooed on the victims arms are IBM Hollerith numbers for use in tracking them with the Hollerith technology.

As these systems are currently being deployed the databases are seperate, but once in there is no reason they wouldn't be put on one database. Also with fears of pandemic flu outbreak IBM and other developers are working on modeling programs that simulate and monitor disease vectors. This means that they are able to show if a disease breaks out at point A where will it travel and in what amount of time. Again in and of itself not a scary proposition, however if these fears increase (and with the development of antibiotic resistant staph infections/TB/etc. they will) it would again be a case where all of these databases need to be synched up.

What this would mean is that the entire society is on a control grid, mapped, coordinated and monitored. It would take alot of work, but technology has an exponential rate of development and at the moment aside from the cost it wouldn't be impossible to put this system in immediately.

Socialized healthcare would mandate that every citizen have health insurance, with fears of pandemic flu it would also mandate that every person get vaccinated (thus being placed in the EMR database) or else be considered a potential "typhoid mary".

My concern is that each of these systems are innocent as stand alone systems, however if coordinated they would mean an end to legitimate personal freedom. Each step along the way is another step towards total control.

I've read reports from Sandia Laboratories (a federal lab in New Mexico funded by Lockheed Martin) that indicated as one of their implementation strategies the use of religion to make people comfortable with these systems. If you look at some of the current missionary practices they involve "networking the demographic information" for "unreached people groups" and rely heavily on the same Total Quality Management systems that are being implemented in businesses to database their production goals and plan for future developments.

Sorry if this is a sort of disconnected post, but theres alot of information involved and alot of it is technical.


_________________
David

 2008/1/23 16:58Profile
dbm
Member



Joined: 2007/9/17
Posts: 31
Lisle, Illinois

 Re:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real_ID

Sorry to use the ubiquitous Wikipedia, but it presents all the information in a centralized area.

Here is information from opponents of the act:

http://epic.org/privacy/id-cards/epic_realid_comments.pdf

As for scriptural references this is really what my question is about. As Christians do we present a force of passive resistance to these trends discerning their probable end? or do we accept them, pray they don't lead to where they very well may, and deal with the issue when/if it gets bad.

As Christians we are called to be watchmen. Again I've been praying on it, and I have not come to a clear resolution in God.


_________________
David

 2008/1/23 17:03Profile
paula4jc
Member



Joined: 2005/1/8
Posts: 132


 Re:

Duplicate message error.


_________________
Paula

 2008/1/23 21:47Profile
paula4jc
Member



Joined: 2005/1/8
Posts: 132


 Re:

Quote:
Its a complex issue.

I am employed in the field of healthcare IT where they are currently implementing a system called Electronic Medical Records. The full implementation involves state level databases of medical records, financial information, mental health records, etc. from everyone who visits a hospital. Along with this is the Veri-Chip which is an implantable chip that contains this information accessible in an RFID format.

The Clinton administration tied alot of their healthcare reform acts to assessment testing in public schools allowing a cross communication of health records and school records. There have been moves to require mandatory mental health testing for all public school children.

The Real ID is the beginning of a similar database system only tied to the drivers license. In its first implementation it will be only a scannable ID card, however eventually it will include RFID technology as well. At the moment they just don't have the funding.

The EMR system is based on punch card technology initially implemented in 1890 for the US census; 1890 was the same year that the US implemented its eugenics program (ie. planned parenthood, forced sterilization of "unfit parents") That same punch card technology was sold by IBM to the Nazis for use in managing the concentration camps. The numbers tattooed on the victims arms are IBM Hollerith numbers for use in tracking them with the Hollerith technology.

As these systems are currently being deployed the databases are seperate, but once in there is no reason they wouldn't be put on one database. Also with fears of pandemic flu outbreak IBM and other developers are working on modeling programs that simulate and monitor disease vectors. This means that they are able to show if a disease breaks out at point A where will it travel and in what amount of time. Again in and of itself not a scary proposition, however if these fears increase (and with the development of antibiotic resistant staph infections/TB/etc. they will) it would again be a case where all of these databases need to be synched up.

What this would mean is that the entire society is on a control grid, mapped, coordinated and monitored. It would take alot of work, but technology has an exponential rate of development and at the moment aside from the cost it wouldn't be impossible to put this system in immediately.

Socialized healthcare would mandate that every citizen have health insurance, with fears of pandemic flu it would also mandate that every person get vaccinated (thus being placed in the EMR database) or else be considered a potential "typhoid mary".

My concern is that each of these systems are innocent as stand alone systems, however if coordinated they would mean an end to legitimate personal freedom. Each step along the way is another step towards total control.

I've read reports from Sandia Laboratories (a federal lab in New Mexico funded by Lockheed Martin) that indicated as one of their implementation strategies the use of religion to make people comfortable with these systems. If you look at some of the current missionary practices they involve "networking the demographic information" for "unreached people groups" and rely heavily on the same Total Quality Management systems that are being implemented in businesses to database their production goals and plan for future developments.

Sorry if this is a sort of disconnected post, but theres alot of information involved and alot of it is technical.




That's a wealth of information. Thank you.

Has any one watch Arron Russo: The guy seem to be a pagan who has a lot of knowledge of the western corrupt financial system.
[url=Arron]http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5420753830426590918[/url]

Listen to the video shed light on how the world elites through greed and power could want/plan to control the world by creating a one world order, reduce the world population and insert chip in every one, then tie that chip to the person's bank account (can't buy or sell), and manage and monitored he/she at a central database. They are wheeling us in slowing, first work ID (Pentagon work ID has every thing to include blood type), drivers licenses and passports.

I read some parents have opt to implant RFID chip in new born to prevent being switch at birth in the hospitals.

I also see many regions of the world are moving to form one currency. For example, Dubai region; South and Central American; US, Canada and Mexico; and we all know the Euro is old news.

As children of God there is no need to be fearful. Every believer who knows and obey the word has his wisdom, knowledge and discerning spirit, thus we will know the number when the time comes because it's man's number. Our redemption draw nigh when we see these things.


_________________
Paula

 2008/1/23 21:48Profile
paula4jc
Member



Joined: 2005/1/8
Posts: 132


 Re:

Error


_________________
Paula

 2008/1/23 21:49Profile
dbm
Member



Joined: 2007/9/17
Posts: 31
Lisle, Illinois

 Re:

Thank you Paula,

Bless you for having looked into this issue as it will become very pertinent in the coming years. I would caution against looking at any conspiracy theories and advise that we all look into the facts of this situation. There is alot of information out there, but I think there is a danger in relying on sources that might lend towards disbelief.

I know that other posts on this forum have lead to some stating that this kind of inquiry violates the Biblical mandate not to discredit leaders. By looking into the legislation and the technology I believe that as Christians we can avoid condemning individuals and address the situation. I've been blessed with employment that allows me to do this and I know that others aren't as aware of these issues.

Unfortunately Arron Russo is lumped in with conspiracy theorists; although he does provide anecdotes that pertain to this issue. I'm not saying that he might not be completely truthful, but he does name names and draws conclusions that may cloud the facts.

Discerning we should see that the time is now and that as Christians this is an immediate issue that needs to be addressed.

http://www.uspto.gov/patft/

Search 20020165758 in the quick search option, this patent is from May 3rd, 2001.

Identification and tracking of persons using RFID-tagged items in store environments

Abstract
A method and system for identifying and tracking persons using RFID-tagged items carried on the persons. Previous purchase records for each person who shops at a retail store are collected by POS terminals and stored in a transaction database. When a person carrying or wearing items having RFID tags enters the store or other designated area, a RFID tag scanner located therein scans the RFID tags on that person and reads the RFID tag information. The RFID tag information collected from the person is correlated with transaction records stored in the transaction database according to known correlation algorithms. Based on the results of the correlation, the exact identity of the person or certain characteristics about the person can be determined. This information is used to monitor the movement of the person through the store or other areas.

Translate store environment to city realizing that the Real ID will eventually have RFID technology in it and a nasty picture emerges.

Also look at the New Freedom Comission ( http://www.mentalhealthcommission.gov/reports/FinalReport/FullReport.htm )this directly affects every single child in America, saved an unsaved alike. The definitions for mental health conditions such as depression and incredibly vague and could lead to false diagnoses, especially if there is a legitimate issue within the environment causing people to feel disheartened:

Goal 4 - Early Mental Health Screening, Assessment, and Referral to Services Are Common Practice
In a transformed mental health system, the early detection of mental health problems in children and adults - through routine and comprehensive testing and screening - will be an expected and typical occurrence. At the first sign of difficulties, preventive interventions will be started to keep problems from escalating. For example, a child whose serious emotional disturbance is identified early will receive care, preventing the potential onset of a co-occurring substance use disorder and breaking a cycle that otherwise can lead to school failure and other problems.

Quality screening and early intervention will occur in both readily accessible, low-stigma settings, such as primary health care facilities and schools, and in settings in which a high level of risk exists for mental health problems, such as criminal justice, juvenile justice, and child welfare systems. Both children and adults will be screened for mental illnesses during their routine physical exams.

For consumers of all ages, early detection, assessment, and links with treatment and supports will help prevent mental health problems from worsening. Service providers across settings will also routinely screen for co-occurring mental illnesses and substance use disorders. Early intervention and appropriate treatment will also improve outcomes and reduce pain and suffering for children and adults who have or who are at risk for co-occurring mental and addictive disorders.

Early detection of mental disorders will result in substantially shorter and less disabling courses of impairment.

For consumers of all ages, early detection, assessment, and links with treatment and supports will help prevent mental health problems from worsening.
To aid in transforming the mental health system, the Commission makes four recommendations:

4.1 Promote the mental health of young children.


4.2 Improve and expand school mental health programs.


4.3 Screen for co-occurring mental and substance use disorders and link with integrated treatment strategies.


4.4 Screen for mental disorders in primary health care, across the lifespan, and connect to treatment and supports


_________________
David

 2008/1/23 22:53Profile









 Re:



The EDIT: I assumed it was a [i]Mental Health[/i], but it is not. It is the 'New Freedom' : end edit: Commission recommends

Quote:
4.2 Improve and expand school mental health programs.

[i]Expand [b]school[/i][/b] mental health programs....?

Does this mean more music lessons for all children, healthy food options only, and much more time out in the fresh air doing sports?

:-)


Quote:
There is alot of information out there, but I think there is a danger in relying on sources that might lend towards disbelief.

I know that other posts on this forum have lead to some stating that this kind of inquiry violates the Biblical mandate not to discredit leaders.

Thank you for mentioning this. I was thinking more of it, today, and wondered.... if there isn't a difference between people who speak evil of the good, and those who speak truth about the evil?

It seems to me that we [i]do[/i] have to guard against being carnal - not even born again (perhaps), and yet presuming to judge leaders - and simply being aware [i]because[/i] of being born again, of who is ministering goodness from God to the people. This makes sense of Paul's and Peter's exhortations that we pray for those who have charge over us.

1 Peter 3:16
Having a good conscience; that, whereas they speak evil of you, as of evildoers, they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ.

2 Peter 2:10
But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous [i]are they[/i], selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.

Quote:
By looking into the legislation and the technology I believe that as Christians we can avoid condemning individuals and address the situation.

Recently I wondered if the information in these few verses from Ezekiel 9, is more illuminating of God's mind on [i]marks[/i]...

3 And the glory of the God of Israel was gone up from the cherub, whereupon he was, to the threshold of the house.
And he called to the man clothed with linen, which [i]had[/i] the writer's inkhorn by his side;
4 And the LORD said unto him, 'Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof'.
5 And to the others he said in mine hearing, 'Go ye after him through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity:
6 Slay utterly old [i]and[/i] young, both maids, and little children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom [i]is[/i] the mark; and begin at my sanctuary'. Then they began at the ancient men which [i]were[/i] before the house.
7 And he said unto them, Defile the house, and fill the courts with the slain: go ye forth. And they went forth, and slew in the city.
8 And it came to pass, while they were slaying them, and I was left, that I fell upon my face, and cried, and said, Ah Lord GOD! wilt thou destroy all the residue of Israel in thy pouring out of thy fury upon Jerusalem?
9 Then said he unto me, The iniquity of the house of Israel and Judah [i]is[/i] exceeding great, and the land is full of blood, and the city full of perverseness: for they say, The LORD hath forsaken the earth, and the LORD seeth not.
10 And as for me also, mine eye shall not spare, neither will I have pity, [i]but[/i] I will recompense their way upon their head.
11 And, behold, the man clothed with linen, which [i]had[/i] the inkhorn by his side, reported the matter, saying, I have done as thou hast commanded me.

 2008/1/24 1:13





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