| What think ye of the Prayer and Worship Movement|
What is your take on the prayer and worship movement that has been sweeping the nation and even the world over the last 5 to 10 years. It seems that many are very excited about builing 24 hour houses of prayer. Consider the large worship gatherings that are happening today where young people gather to sing songs to God that have a sense of itensity and ferver about them. Topics such as the restoration of the Nazarites and extreme devotion to Jesus through prayer and fasting is the normal areas of discussion in these huge packed out stadium events. The leaders of these meetings speak with a certain power and conviction that is truly captivating. I have been involved with these types of gatherings for a number of years. It produces in those who attend an excitement about going deep in God. The worship is touching and awesome enough to move you to tears and a feeling of resolution to win the battle for the King. After being engaged in this phenomena for almost 10 years I have begin to wonder about the validity of some of these events. Is it indeed possible to truly 'worship God in vain'? And if we can truly worship the Lord (sing songs,have tears,pray militantly) in vain, what other Kingdom activities can we do in vain? Is our assesment of a powerful meeting where the praying was heart felt and passionate and the music was mighty and glorious what Heaven would label as powerful? I trust that I am not simply meddling but seeking the view of others among this community concerning those things stated above. Grace, Grace to you. And may we meet one day on the Sea of Glass.
| 2008/1/21 17:49||Profile|
| Re: What think ye of the Prayer and Worship Movement|
I, personally, have been involved with these types of meetings before. I would say that I was on the fringes. The huge crowds sent up a red flag for me. Plus, I witnessed the lives of some of those who were all into it and I could see that it was a lopsided idea of God which they held. These same people could carry on with their so-called worship till dawn, but they weren't laying down their lives. They weren't eating His flesh and drinking His blood. They were still holding onto their lives with white knuckles, so I could see that their worship was in vain.
True worship is a life laid down. Period. If the people who think they are worshipping God are still running from suffering (which God has customized to test them), they haven't yet rendered up their life to God. [i]That[/i], is where the kind of worship God is looking for begins. I said, [i]"begins"[/i].
I think these large movements are like every other organized religious event. They do contain some authentic worshippers, but mostly, there are tares. It doesn't matter. God looks on the heart.
[i][color=FF3300][font=Verdana]"But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth." John 4:23-24[/font][/color][/i]
God's eyes are running to and fro over the whole earth seeking out those whose hearts are perfect toward him. All the others, he just ignores in receiving their, so-called, worship. So, Brother, it doesn't matter whether the place or event you go to is "legitimate". It only matters whether [i]you[/i] are legitimate. Love, Dian.
| 2008/1/22 5:15||Profile|
| Re: one more thing|
I want to say one more thing on this subject of true worship. I said in my first post in this thread
God's eyes are running to and fro over the whole earth seeking out those whose hearts are perfect toward him. All the others, he just ignores in receiving their, so-called, worship.
Matthew 6:24 says, "No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other, or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon." This word, mammon, is really just stuff. You cannot worship God [i]and[/i] anything else. True worship begins once every other affection of our heart has been put down, otherwise, we are kidding ourselves.
Folks, this is the reason Jesus said in John 6:53, "...Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you." Worshippers are alive because they eat and drink Christ, the same cup he drinks. He drank the cup of surrendered life to the dregs. This is the reason many of his followers left on the day he said this. They were not willing. True worship is being willing to eat his flesh and drink his blood. True worship is saying "yes" and inviting God to put you to the test. You've, perhaps, been in meetings where the leader was saying, "Get ready! Get ready! Get ready!" They're usually trying to build up some excitement for a show of God. Well, we all better get ready, alright! Get ready to have your life demanded of you if you want to follow Christ. Dian.
| 2008/1/22 5:36||Profile|
| Re: What think ye of the Prayer and Worship Movement|
Maybe I should not reply, because I have not been to one of these events in years, but from what I have seen and heard from Christian tv and others, these events are not necessary.
They sound good, and there is a lot of expectation, but after the event, people just seem to go back to the old routine with no more intrest in God than before they went.
So then, they await the next event.
For me, they just seem to be copying the worldly humanitarian concerts they have in order to raise money for famine relief or whatever the cause may be.
Is it scriptural? I don't know. Unless we count what happened in Acts 2.
That's my own opinion. Bye.
| 2008/1/22 6:30||Profile|
This has been my question, also...thus I posted last week in regards to ReignDownUSA.
I think that those who gather in these great forums truly do want to see a move of God.
My question is Why?
What are they hoping to happen? Why do they want Him to move?
| 2008/1/26 5:49||Profile|
Santa Clara, CA
| Re: What think ye of the Prayer and Worship Movement|
Leonard Ravenhill comes to mind;
"[i]The question isn't were you challenged. The question is were you changed?[/i]"
After being engaged in this phenomena for almost 10 years I have begin to wonder about the validity of some of these events. Is it indeed possible to truly 'worship God in vain'? And if we can truly worship the Lord (sing songs,have tears,pray militantly) in vain, what other Kingdom activities can we do in vain? Is our assesment of a powerful meeting where the praying was heart felt and passionate and the music was mighty and glorious what Heaven would label as powerful? I trust that I am not simply meddling but seeking the view of others among this community concerning those things stated above. Grace, Grace to you. And may we meet one day on the Sea of Glass.
Seems you would be one to make a better assessment with your long engagement. And that now the validity of it all coming into question is telling ...
Something about 'movement's' in their own right generally doesn't sit very well, who is engineering them? We often hear of "God [i]is[/i] moving ______" here, there and everywhere, but is it indeed valid? Is it just simply zeal, even well intentioned at that?
That is a difficult comment I recognize if everything is to be painted one way, surely even a thirst for revival could likewise be accused or misinterpreted. Maybe the question I would ask is ... Does it run it's own course? That is, well perhaps the word itself, [i]movement[/i], does it move of it's own volition or is it simply something that is being drummed up, worked up, as you stated or even perhaps alluded to, a building up of excitement, emotions and so forth? What's left at the end of the day? Or four months down the road, a year later ...
Would imagine that this is also very hard to quantify individually ... drawing out more questions then answers here.
If I was to push this towards the matter of revival, from everything I have ever read or studied of it, there was always a very real objective and subjective change brought about. That may have little to do with these types of gatherings or it may not, as someone mentioned, why do we even seek such things? Change is the large reason if I had to be pressed on it, that as a result even if it was not foremost in the front of the mind ...
Maybe an example would be better. The recent Revival Conference that was put on by SI. It's intents and purposes were set forth, but not stringently and for myself I came, even the question itself came ... 'for what reason?' and the only answer I could give was that I could do no other, I had to be present and I came as if it was the culmination of all these years here in a sort of encapsulated form. Yet, that is not the half of it. To 'meet' those I already knew from eternity past is something even the statement itself falls short of. Still, this also falls short. Forgive me of once again trying to say too much all at the same time here.
"Expectant" is a tremendous word and if anything I am curiously of a mind, especially of late, to be almost always expecting the unexpected of the Lord. This walk so far continues to be one full of surprises. There is this tremendous element of faith that anticipates that which it knows not. That also has put me somewhat back on my heels when it comes to so much future casting in all it's variety, just much of an observation to wards this penchant to be on the cutting edge of whatever it is that "the Lord is doing". Be that either to what is perceived as 'coming' or to supposedly what is present. Is it so? That must be something of a draining question to some ears if it implies that every nuance is called into question or a predisposition to suspicion ganders everything. That, is really not the motivation.
Relating back to the conference ... Even with it's partitions or parameters set forth the sheer beauty of it all was that it wasn't set forth as a calling God down out of Heaven to give us a revival as such but that a variety of understanding was presented from many a different perspective on just what revival is. I would say that just as many had hoped and\or prayed that perhaps it might even come or maybe could be birthed from within it's setting. It was in great part very "hands off" in that respect, "What might the Lord do?". Likewise, I do not know of any grand disappointment that a revival didn't break out over those three days.
It has been just about 3 months now and still the memories are fresh. There was something very intangible that occurred and is still occurring. It was more than just a meeting or a conference and yet the fact does remain that is indeed what it was. What did you get and what did you give comes to mind, is it truly enough just to be present?
Art Katz used to often express in his meetings or gatherings, even the smallest of them by calling them 'events'. Depending on ones disposition and perspective this was either a bit of hyperbole or dare I say ... truth. The couple of times I was blessed to hear him speak were indeed events and eventful. Nothing of the style or manner, the excitement aroused as that is mentioned here, quite the opposite. In both instances the largest gathering may have been 40 people. In the first he must have spoke for close to four hours and I felt very disappointed when he brought it to a close, truly it was as if he had barely gotten underway. To this day and this is now some years removed there are things well entrenched into the marrow from this seemingly innocuous little gathering. That the Lord would take him home so recently now only magnifies it all, exceeds what was very exceeding to begin with and carried about all the preceding years. Now, am I waxing eloquently or emotionally or did something very real and true take place?
It's the intangibles. The atmosphere. The small things that are so profound. The love of God expressed through the brethren, be they pastors or speakers or just those of us who hear and pray, encourage one another, give and take ... participate?
Surely I must be well all over the place here indiscriminately.
Evidence. Maybe that is the summary of it all. Is there any? Is it true and real and ongoing? Or is it merely a kind of contorted form of entertainment with Christian overtones? It does raise the question of what worship [i]is[/i] just as well, something that seems well out of proportion in sheer definition, meaning now music almost exclusively, another subject in it's own right.
Is it merely vain as you observed?, it is a very good question. Did some journaling during the conference and maybe it is attributable even here, this section from T. Austin Sparks;
[color=0000CC]We have to pray it in and pray it out, and I feel that [u]after[/u] a conference the thing to do is to get to prayer more than ever on the ground of what has been said, and take that up before the Lord. If we did that, how much more fruit there would be from our conferences! Instead of having truth in our notebooks we would have it in our lives. Instead of so much more truth that we have now become acquainted with, we would be entering into the working power of that truth if we came back with it to the Lord in prayer. No one is more conscious of the need of having things said to him on this matter than I am at this time, but we are speaking together of these things and I trust that we are all taking them to heart. Oh, for the day when, not for the sake of numbers (for it is not a matter of counting heads) but because of the recognition of the pre-eminent place of prayer, the prayer meeting will be as crowded as any conference gathering! It only needs the apprehension of God's estimate of prayer, and we shall regard it as at least as important as any conference meeting with a theme and an address. [i]The Lord burn that into our hearts, for that is the preeminent work - prayer.[/i] [/color]
| 2008/1/26 12:15||Profile|
elanham, hi cousin,Did you say awesome worship, large groups of young and old lifting up Jesus?
Did you also say ministers actually building 24/7 worship centers?
WELL...in light of the fact He created us to worship him,I would have to say.......BRING IT ON!!!
| 2008/1/26 14:30||Profile|
My question is Why? What are they hoping to happen? Why do they want Him to move?
It is human nature to want to be a witness of the spectacular. Immature ones and some more mature ones. Hits us all from time to time. The difference is is how important is it to us? seems to me if we can leave it or take it it may be the healthy route to go. But when your 'faith' is rooted in excitement, the spectacular, you are setting yourself up for a fall and it truly will one of humpty-dumpty proportions.
| 2008/1/26 16:20||Profile|