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 Re:

Thank you Krispy for your post on Hebrews.

I totally agree. Hebrews is Grace vs Law. It is also a great book to uncover cults.

Hebrews is talking about a New and Living way, through the veil, that is to say His flesh...I am crucified with Christ.....finding that perfect REST in Christ.

The Anchor of our soul is through the veil, and the Father we can now come to is through the veil. No one can come to the Father except through the Son.

Hebrews teaches what FAITH is...the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things not seen.

Hebrews is to Jews as Galatians is to Gentiles.

The Tulip is not preached in either.

Grace....is! The Life we live under Grace, not law.

Katy



 2008/1/21 12:02
andres
Member



Joined: 2005/6/17
Posts: 285
texas,brownsville

 Re:

Krispy,
I think this verse answers your question:
eph:5:25
Husbands love your wives even as christ also LOVED his church and gave himself for it.
church= called out ones
not the called, but the Church- the called OUT
it seems pretty clear

Christ gave himself for the called out ones: Christans.. the church
Love
aNDY
remember, the epistals were written to Christians, so when you see the word:we, us the writer is talking about the church

andy


_________________
andy

 2008/1/21 13:48Profile









 Re:

OK... good food for thought from everyone. And I am more than grateful for the civil tone of this discussion. One reason why I have always avoided this topic (and I know this sounds contradictory for those who know me well) is because it usually breeds very contentious and judgemental threads. This is good stuff so far.

Let me ask this... if Jesus died for His elect, and them only, and God chose beforehand who would be saved and who would not be saved... why did He need to die anyway? God could have instilled faith in their hearts right from the beginning and saved Himself a lot of time and effort.

Also, if God wishes that NONE should perish, but ALL should come to salvation... isnt that God wishing against His own will?

And no one has tackled the sticky question of if God has predestined everything, including Hitler... then isnt God responsible for millions upon millions of murders? I mean after all, according to Calvinism (as I perceive it), Hitler had no choice in the matter. Instead of the old saying "the devil made me do it", didnt God make Hitler do it? Wouldnt that make God at least an accessory to murder? Wouldnt it have been pre-meditated murder?

But yet... there is no evil in God.

What about in the OT when Moses persuaded God not to kill the nation of Israel? God intended to wipe them all out, but Moses pleaded with God not to... and God "repented" (meaning changed His mind and decided not to). Isnt that God going against something that He "pre-ordained"?

Krispy

 2008/1/21 14:00
andres
Member



Joined: 2005/6/17
Posts: 285
texas,brownsville

 Re:

again John is wrtting to Saints:
1John 4:10
Herein is LOVE not that WE(saints) loved God, but that he LOVED US( saints) and sent his SON to be the propitiation for OUR (SAINTS)sins.
love
andy


_________________
andy

 2008/1/21 14:01Profile









 Re:

Andy... I have to disagee with your interpretation of that verse. I think your stuffing Calvinism into that verse instead of letting that verse flow freely and taken at face value.

Krispy

 2008/1/21 14:04
andres
Member



Joined: 2005/6/17
Posts: 285
texas,brownsville

 Re:

"Let me ask this... if Jesus died for His elect, and them only, and God chose beforehand who would be saved and who would not be saved... why did He need to die anyway? God could have instilled faith in their hearts right from the beginning and saved Himself a lot of time and effort." krispy

What if God willing to shew his wrath and TO MAKE HIS POWER KNOWN, endured with much long suffering the vessels of wraith fitted to destruction:
and that he might Make Known the Riches of HIS glory the vessels of mercy which he had afore prepared unto glory" rom 9.22-23
remember.
IS there unrighteousness with GOD? GOD forbid.
love andy


_________________
andy

 2008/1/21 14:08Profile
andres
Member



Joined: 2005/6/17
Posts: 285
texas,brownsville

 Re:

then who is john or paul wrtting to?


_________________
andy

 2008/1/21 14:09Profile









 Re:

Quote:
[b]1 John 4:10[/b] [i]Herein is LOVE not that WE(saints) loved God, but that he LOVED US( saints) and sent his SON to be the propitiation for OUR (SAINTS)sins.[/i]



Andy... lets remove the words that you added in order to fit Calvinism into this verse:

[b]1 John 4:10[/b] [i]Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.[/i]

Yep, He sure did... and how do I know this? [b]John 3:16[/b] [i]For God so loved [b]THE WORLD[/b]...[/i]

Doesnt say that God so loved "us", or "saints", or "the elect", or "some people", or "the ones He chose"... it plainly says THE WORLD. And taken at face value, on it's own, without slapping someone's "theology" on it, it clearly means mankind... as a whole. THE WORLD.

This verse has nothing to do with Calvinism, and in fact, seems to refute Calvinism.

Does it not?

Krispy

 2008/1/21 14:34
BlazedbyGod
Member



Joined: 2007/8/22
Posts: 462


 Re:

Acts 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood

I think, simply put, he purchased the Church with his own blood.

 2008/1/21 14:35Profile
BlazedbyGod
Member



Joined: 2007/8/22
Posts: 462


 Re:

Quote:

KrispyKrittr wrote:
Quote:
[b]1 John 4:10[/b] [i]Herein is LOVE not that WE(saints) loved God, but that he LOVED US( saints) and sent his SON to be the propitiation for OUR (SAINTS)sins.[/i]



Andy... lets remove the words that you added in order to fit Calvinism into this verse:

[b]1 John 4:10[/b] [i]Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.[/i]

Yep, He sure did... and how do I know this? [b]John 3:16[/b] [i]For God so loved [b]THE WORLD[/b]...[/i]

Doesnt say that God so loved "us", or "saints"... it plainly says THE WORLD. And taken at face value, on it's own, without slapping someone's "theology" on it, it clearly means mankind... as a whole. THE WORLD.

Does it not?

Krispy



Krispy, I just want to add this to what you said regarding Jon 3:16 "the world"

We must also remember what Jesus said about the world:

John 14: 15 If ye love me, keep my commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom THE WORLD CANNOT RECEIVE, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

 2008/1/21 14:37Profile





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