| Re: Who did Christ die for?|
I see I made a wise decision last post ;-) but here are a couple of excerpts from Ron Bailey's old thread [url=http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=1212&forum=36&start=0&viewmode=flat&order=0]Propitiation and the Red Heifer[/url]
[i]'True, but the purpose of my original contribution was to show that a gap could and sometimes did exist between the 'sacrifice' and its 'application'. [b]Between redemption accomplished and redemption applied[/b]. The 'living water' was required in this context to apply the accomplished remedy. This 'living water' I linked with the 'living waters of the Spirit' who makes the sacrifice of Christ real to me.
It was originally posted on another site in a conversation with one who stated that Christ's accomplished redemption was inevitably applied to the unconditionally elect. I was seeking to show that the availability of the remedy was not a guarantee of its application.'
'The whole purpose of the original post was [u]to show that this sacrifice did not have an automatic effect but needed a moment of appropriation[/u]. It is the difference between redemption accomplished and redemption applied. Until the 'sacrifice' was applied to the 'transgressor' it did not benefit him.
So Christ's death requires personal application, and is not an automatic consequence.' (p6)[/i]
I'm not suggesting you should 'automatically' agree with philologos, but I think the discussion is bound to cover much of your question.
| 2008/1/21 9:55|
It is the difference between redemption accomplished and redemption applied. Until the 'sacrifice' was applied to the 'transgressor' it did not benefit him.
Yea, I think this is what I believe.
Wouldnt it stand to reason that if God predestined some to condemnation, and some to heaven... and that God controls every aspect of what happens here on earth, that God is the creator of evil? Take Hitler for instance... if God is controlling us all, and has preordained or predestined (according to the Calvinist definition of those terms) every action we do... like puppets on a string... then thru Hitler, didnt God commit murder a million times over?
I just cant comprehend that man has no will, no choices to make... even tho scripture says in Deut. 30:19 [i]I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore [b]choose[/b] life, that both thou and thy seed may live...[/i].
| 2008/1/21 10:07|
i see many flaws in calvinism , ex if God elected only some why would Jesus weep for Jeusalem? he dident elect them so they couldent have come anyway....
I havent found an satisfying answer yet to how it all fits togeheter, but i see to many cracks in calvins five points. To many verses that CLEARLY says something else, where calvinism fails in my view is when they try adapt these verses to fit the doctrine.
And also the classic why God would ask ALL men to repent, if they cant anyway, seems to me as God would mock men if he did.
Now also it says very clear he predastinated some...
how it fits? i dont know, but i am convinced [i]some[/i] aspects of calvinsim is clearly against hundreds of verses.
| 2008/1/21 10:08||Profile|
yes Rons quote is very good, also i read something by Wesley i have for my sake found to be the "closest" to balance all scripture in my opinion, i will go search and post it here if i find it.
| 2008/1/21 10:10||Profile|
how it fits? i dont know, but i am convinced some aspects of calvinsim is clearly against hundreds of verses.
Yea, I agree.. this is where I am at with it. I feel comfortable that Calvinism has many holes in it, and even some heresy involved. But then... how do I reckon the verses that speak about preordained and predestined? What exactly does it mean? If Calvin got it wrong, then there must be a correct definition out there somewhere.
| 2008/1/21 10:11|
| Re: Who did Christ die for?|
By John Wesley
(text from the 1872 edition - Thomas Jackson, editor)
Whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son: -- Whom he did predestinate, them he also called. And whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. Romans 8:29, 30
1. Our beloved brother Paul," says St. Peter, "according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; as also in all his Epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other Scriptures, unto their own destruction." (2 Peter 3:15, 16)
2. It is not improbable, that among those things spoken by St. Paul, which are hard to be understood, the Apostle Peter might place what he speaks on this subject in the eighth and ninth chapters of his epistle to the Romans. And it is certain not only the unlearned, but many of the most learned men in the world, and not the "unstable" only, but many who seemed to be well established in the truths of the gospel, have for several centuries, "wrested" these passages "to their own destruction."
3. "Hard to be understood" we may well allow them to be, when we consider how men of the strongest understanding, improved by all the advantages of education, have continually differed in judgment concerning them. And this very consideration, that there is so wide a difference upon the head between men of the greatest learning, sense, and piety, one might imagine would make all who now speak upon the subject exceedingly wary and self-diffident. But I know not how it is, that just the reverse is observed in every part of the Christian world. No writers upon earth appear more positive than those who write on this difficult subject. Nay, the same men, who, writing upon any other subject, are remarkably modest and humble, on this alone lay aside all self-distrust,
And speak ex cathedra infallible.
This is peculiarly observable of almost all those who assert the absolute decrees. But surely it is possible to avoid this: Whatever we propose, may be proposed with modesty, and with deference to those wise and good men who are of a contrary opinion; and the rather, because so much has been said already, on every part of the question, so many volumes have been written, that it is scarcely possible to say anything which has not been said before. All I would offer at present, not to the lovers of contention, but to men of piety and candour, are a few short hints, which perhaps may cast some light on the text above recited.
4. The more frequently and carefully I have considered it, the more I have been inclined to think that the apostle is not here (as many have supposed) describing a chain of causes and effects; (this does not seem to have entered into his heart;) but simply showing the method in which God works; the order in which the several branches of salvation constantly follow each other. And this, I apprehend, will be clear to any serious and impartial inquirer, surveying the work of God either forward or backward; either from the beginning to the end, or from the end to the beginning.
5. And, First, let us look forward on the whole work of God in the salvation of man; considering it from the beginning, the first point, till it terminates in glory. The first point is, the foreknowledge of God. God foreknew those in every nation, those who would believe, from the beginning of the world to the consummation of all things. But, in order to throw light upon this dark question, it should be well observed, that when we speak of God's foreknowledge, we do not speak according to the nature of things, but after the manner of men. For, if we speak properly, there is no such thing as either foreknowledge or afterknowledge in God. All time, or rather all eternity, (for the children of men,) being present to him at once, he does not know one thing in one point of view from everlasting to everlasting. As all time, with everything that exists therein, is present with him at once, so he sees at once, whatever was is, or will be, to the end of time. But observe: We must not think they are because he knows them. No: he knows them because they are. Just as I (if one may be allowed to compare the things of men with the deep things of God) now know the sun shines: Yet the sun does not shine because I know it, but I know it because he shines. My knowledge supposes the sun to shine; but does not in anywise cause it. In like manner, God knows that man sins; for he knows all things: Yet we do not sin because he knows it, but he knows it because we sin; and his knowledge supposes our sin, but does not in anywise cause it. In a word, God, looking on all ages, from the creation to the consummation, as a moment, and seeing at once whatever is in the hearts of all the children of men, knows every one that does or does not believe, in every age or nation. Yet what he knows, whether faith or unbelief, is in nowise caused by his knowledge. Men are as free in believing or not believing as if he did not know it at all.
6. Indeed, if man were not free, he could not be accountable either for his thoughts, word, or actions. If he were not free, he would not be capable either of reward or punishment; he would be incapable either of virtue or vice, of being either morally good or bad. If he had no more freedom than the sun, the moon, or the stars, he would be no more accountable than them. On supposition that he had no more freedom than them, the stones of the earth would be as capable of reward, and as liable to punishment, as man: One would be as accountable as the other. Yea, and it would be as absurd to ascribe either virtue or vice to him as to ascribe it to the stock of a tree.
7. But to proceed: "Whom he did foreknow, them he did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son." This is the Second step: (To speak after the manner of men: For in fact, there is nothing before or after in God:) In other words, God decrees, from everlasting to everlasting, that all who believe in the Son of his love, shall be conformed to his image; shall be saved from all inward and outward sin, into all inward and outward holiness. Accordingly, it is a plain undeniable fact all who truly believe in the name of the Son of God do now "receive the end of their faith, the salvation of their souls;" and this in virtue of the unchangeable, irreversible, irresistible decree of God, -- "He that believeth shall be saved;" "he that believeth not, shall be damned."
8. "Whom he did predestinate, them he also called." This is the Third step: (Still remembering that we speak after the manner of men:) To express it a little more largely: According to his fixed decree, that believers shall be saved, those whom he foreknows as such, he calls both outwardly and inwardly, -- outwardly by the word of his grace, and inwardly by his Spirit. This inward application of his word to the heart, seems to be what some term "effectual calling:" And it implies, the calling them children of God; the accepting them "in the Beloved;" the justifying them "freely by his grace, through the redemption that is in Jesus Christ."
9. "Whom he called, them he justified." This is the Fourth step. It is generally allowed that the word "justified" here is taken in a peculiar sense; that it means he made them just or righteous. He executed his decree, "conforming them to the image of his Son;" or, as we usually speak, sanctified them.
10. It remains, "whom he justified, them he also glorified." This is the Last step. Having made them "meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light," he gives them "the kingdom which was prepared for them before the world began." This is the order wherein, "according to the counsel of his will," the plan he has laid down from eternity, he saves those whom he foreknew; the true believers in every place and generation.
11. The same great work of salvation by faith, according to the foreknowledge and decree of God, may appear in a still clearer light, if we view it backward, from the end to the beginning. Suppose then you stood with the "great multitude which no man can number, out of every nation, and tongue, and kindred, and people," who "give praise unto Him that stretch upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever;" you would not find one among them all that were entered into glory, who was not a witness of that great truth, "Without holiness no man shall see the Lord;" "not one of all that innumerable company who was not sanctified before he was glorified. By holiness he was prepared for glory; according to the invariable will of the Lord, that the crown, purchased by the blood of his son, should be given to none but those who are renewed by his Spirit. He is become "the author of eternal salvation" only "to them that obey him;" "that obey him inwardly and outwardly; that are holy in heart, and holy in all manner of conversation."
12. And could you take view of all those upon earth who are now sanctified, you would find no one of these had been sanctified till after he was called. He was first called, not only with an outward call, by the word and the messengers of God, but likewise with an inward call, by his Spirit applying his word, enabling him to believe in the only-begotten Son of God, and bearing testimony with his spirit that he was a child of God. And it was by this very means they were all sanctified. It was by a sense of the love of God shed abroad in his heart, that everyone of them was enabled to love God. Loving God, he loved his neighbor as himself, and had power to walk in all his commandments blameless. This is a rule which admits of no exception. God calls a sinner his own, that is, justifies him, before he sanctifies. And by this very thing, the consciousness of his favour, he works in him that grateful, filial affection, from which spring every good temper, and word, and work.
13. And who are they that are thus called of God, but those whom he had before predestinated, or decreed, to "conform to the image of his Son?" This decree (still speaking after the manner of men) precedes every man's calling: Every believer was predestinated before he was called. For God calls none, but "according to the counsel of his will," according to this Orothesis, or plan of acting, which he had laid down before the foundation of the world.
14. Once more: As all that are called were predestinated, so all whom God has predestinated he foreknew. He knew, he saw them as believers, and as such predestinated them to salvation, according to his eternal decree, "He that believeth shall be saved." Thus we see the whole process of the work of God, from the end to the beginning. Who are glorified? None but those who were first sanctified. Who are sanctified? None but those who were first justified. Who are justified? None but those who were first predestinated? Who are predestinated? None but those whom God foreknew as believers. Thus the purpose and word of God stand unshaken as the pillars of heaven: -- "He that believeth shall be saved; he that believeth not shall be damned." And thus God is clear from the blood of all men; since whoever perishes, perishes by his own act and deed. "They will not come unto me," says the Savior of men; and "there is no salvation in any other." They "will not believe;" and there is no other way either to present or eternal salvation. Therefore, their blood is upon their own head; and God is still "justified in his saying" that he "willeth all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of his truth."
15. The sum of all is this: the almighty, all-wise God sees and knows, from everlasting to everlasting, all that is, that was, and that is to come, through one eternal now. With him nothing is either past or future, but all things equally present. He has, therefore, if we speak according to the truth of things, no foreknowledge, no afterknowledge. This would be ill consistent with the Apostle's words, "With him is no variableness or shadow of turning;" and with the account he gives of himself by the Prophet, "I the Lord change not." Yet when he speaks to us, knowing whereof we are made, knowing the scantiness of our understanding, he lets himself down to our capacity, and speaks of himself after the manner of men. Thus, in condescension to our weakness, he speaks of his own purpose, counsel, plan, foreknowledge. Not that God has any need of counsel, of purpose, or of planning his work beforehand. Far be it from us to impute these to the Most High; to measure him by ourselves! It is merely in compassion to us that he speaks thus of himself, as foreknowing the things in heaven or earth, and as predestinating or fore-ordaining them. But can we possibly imagine that these expressions are to be taken literally? To one who was so gross in his conceptions might he not say, "Thinkest thou I am such an one as thyself?" Not so: As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than thy ways. I know, decree, work, in such a manner as it is not possible for thee to conceive: But to give thee some faint, glimmering knowledge of my ways, I use the language of men, and suit myself to thy apprehensions in this thy infant state of existence.
16. What is it, then, that we learn from this whole account? It is this, and no more: -- (1) God knows all believers; (2) wills that they should be saved from sin; (3) to that end, justifies them, (4) sanctifies and (5) takes them to glory.
O that men would praise the Lord for this his goodness; and that they would be content with this plain account of it, and not endeavour to wade into those mysteries which are too deep for angels to fathom!
| 2008/1/21 10:33||Profile|
I post the following for your review and comments. Please dont misunderstand me and think this is me trying to disproove Calvinism. I am on the fence, and wanting to know truth. Not someone's systematic theology.
Anyway, I dont know who wrote the following piece, but it certainly asks some very interesting questions that I would like to see answered, for my own clarification.
[b]The Book of Hebrews Refutes Calvinism[/b]
The book of Hebrews refutes the Calvinist or TULIP doctrines of unconditional and sovereign election and irresistible grace, that God sovereignly and arbitrarily chooses who will be saved and irresistibly and absolutely draws them so that on one hand it is impossible for the non-elect to be saved and on the other hand it is impossible for the elect not to be saved. If this were true, the Holy Spirit would not give such dire warnings and exhortations to professing believers about the possibility of apostasy, because if they are elected they could not possibly perish and if they are not elected, nothing they could do would change their status.
Consider, for example, the following passages:
Consider Hebrews 2:3: How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him.
This exhortation makes no sense in light of Calvinist doctrines. If election is as the Calvinist teaches and it is a matter of an individual being sovereignly chosen by God, how could the elect neglect salvation and how could the non-elect do anything other than neglect salvation?
Consider Hebrews 3:12-14: Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end.
If the elect are predetermined sovereignly and if election has nothing whatsoever to do with the sinner himself and if he is irresistibly drawn and sovereignly kept so that he surely perseveres, what could this exhortation possibly mean? How could the sovereignly elected, irresistibly drawn elect depart from God, and how could the non-elect do anything other than depart from God?
Consider Hebrews 4:9-11: There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.
How could this exhortation possibly apply to TULIP type election? This passage says the rest of salvation is something that every person must seek to enter into and all are urged to do so, but the doctrine of sovereign election teaches us that those elected to Gods rest are predetermined solely by God and they have no choice in the matter and will assuredly enter into His rest.
Consider Hebrews 6:4-6: For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, and have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, if they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
If TULIP theology is true, why the exhortation? How could the elect fall away? And how could the non-elect do anything but fall away?
Consider Hebrews 10:26-29: For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
Again, if TULIP theology is true, why would such an exhortation be given to professing believers? If they are sovereignly elected, they will surely persevere and if they arent they surely wont. According to Calvinist doctrine, it has nothing to do with them or what they do.
If election is sovereign and unconditional in a Calvinist sense and the believer has no choice whatsoever in the matter of salvation, these passages dont make any sense.
If, on the other hand, election involves an element of foreknowledge (1 Pet. 1:2) and involves a personal choice on the part of the sinner (whosoever believeth, Jn. 3:15, 16; 12:46; Acts 10:43; Rom. 9:33; 10:11; 1 John 5:1; Rev. 22:17; etc.), the exhortations and warnings in Hebrews make perfect sense. Because if this is true, and we know that it is because the Bible everywhere teaches it, then the sinner, being given light from Christ (Jn. 1:9) and being drawn by Christ (Jn. 12:32) and being convicted and enlightened by the Holy Spirit (Jn. 16:8) can, because of this gracious divine enablement, either believe on Christ or not and it is also possible for a sinner to come close to salvation without actually possessing it. Therefore he needs to be exhorted to believe on Jesus Christ truly and sincerely and not to turn away before he has been genuinely born again and indwelt by the Holy Spirit and adopted into Gods family.
| 2008/1/21 10:33|
Well I am not Calvinist, and I am not against Calvinism as to because I do not know the totality of what they believe or teach. But as far as the question at hand" who did Christ die for"-I think it is best to simply let Christ answer:
John 15: 12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. 13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life FOR HIS FRIENDS. 14 YE ARE MY FRIENDS, if ye do whatsoever I command you. 15 Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you. 16 YE HAVE NOT CHOSEN ME, but I HAVE CHOSEN YOU, and ORDAINED you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should REMAIN: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you
To me, it is clear that Jesus laid down his life FOR HIS FRIENDS.
| 2008/1/21 11:22||Profile|
Santa Cruz California
| Re: Who did Christ die for?|
C) All of the sins of some of the people.
I really did not want to get involved in this, but, here goes anyway.
John 10:11 I am the good shepherd: [b]the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.[/b]
John 10:14 I am the good shepherd, [b]and know my sheep, and am known of mine.[/b]
John 10:27 [b]My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:[/b]
John 10:28 [b]And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.[/b]
What of those who do not believe?
John 10:26 But ye believe not, [b]because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you[/b]
Notice it does not say, "because you do not believe, you are not my sheep" but instead, "you do not believe, BECAUSE you are not my sheep."
Notice also in Isaiah's prophecy of the Messiah-
Isaiah 53:11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify [b]many[/b]; for he shall bear their iniquities.
Compare this to Christ's words at the last supper-
Matthew 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is [b]shed for many[/b] for the remission of sins.
Mark 14:24 And he said unto them, This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for [b]many[/b].
This is important especially when you look at verses like the following-
Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Romans 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
All whom God predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ, and those only will be not only justified, but glorified. They will persevere unto the end.
Of course we must start at the beginning of all of this, and decide at the outset if you believe that all men are dead in sin. This is because if they are, and if they willfully sin against God and the revelation He has given them through both nature, and conscience, they are deserving of damnation alone.
So you have a mass of sinful, rebellious mankind upon which God looks(beforehand) and picks out a people for Himself, not because of anything in them, or their good works, but because He chose to. These He redeems by the shedding of Christ's blood, and all of these will be brought to faith through the preaching of the Gospel.
Why preach? Because the natural revelation is only enough to condemn a man, but not save him. Christ alone saves, and Christ cannot be found in nature, or in the law. Rather He is found in the Gospel, and in the Scriptures, and in the sacraments of the Lord's Supper, and Baptism.
It is really no different than in the OT where God chooses to form the nation Israel. He chooses a people for Himself, and establishes a means by which they may commune with Him. Other surrounding nations did not participate in this. A few individuals were brought out of other countries, and welcomed into the covenant people, but the vast majority of mankind worshiped gods of their own creation.
Here we see that the blood of the sacrifices only availed for the people to whom God made the covenant, and it is the same now.
I am sure this is nowhere near the end of this conversation, and I am going to get a million of the same questions that have already been answered in other threads, but never the less....
Also Krispy, the book of Hebrews does not refute Calvinism at all. Those passages are warnings to those who are being tempted to turn back to the sacrificial system because of the persecution they were undergoing at the time.
That is why they are warned not treat the blood of Christ as nothing. To turn back to being justified by their own works would essentially mean there would be no way of repentance as these self justifying works could not save.
*Double-predestination is simply the idea that if God has predestined some to salvation, then it is logical to think that others have been predestined for reprobation. Or, in easy terms, those who are not saved, were not predestined to be saved.
| 2008/1/21 11:37||Profile|
Amen, very well and graciously put roaringlamb
| 2008/1/21 11:42||Profile|