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dbm
Member



Joined: 2007/9/17
Posts: 31
Lisle, Illinois

 A Question/Warning Regarding Evangelical Apostasy and Prayerful Request

Recently the Lord has touched me with the good Grace to be in contact with a ministry (Discernment Ministries) that is working diligently to fight a pervasive and disturbing trend in the Evangelical Church. This trend seems to have gained it’s momentum in 1979 at a conference held in Kansas called the “Continuing Consultation on Future Evangelical Concerns”, hosted by the Billy Graham Center.

To say that it gained momentum in 1979 is not to ignore the clear warning signs that were present prior to this conference, however it is there that the true nature of the “Future” that was being discussed comes to light. This conference marks the first public forum in which Evangelical leaders began a dialogue with a group of “futurist” philosophers (such as Willis Harman http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Willis_Harman who spoke at this conference) that would lead to many of the heterodox developments that one sees today in the church; the mega-church phenomenon with its ties to corporate business models being the most visible and vocal of these changes, but not necessarily the most pervasive.

I came upon this ministry through concerns that were raised due to my employment at a research group within the healthcare sector. The research that I have been working on for the past 2 years revolves around the emergent use of information systems in healthcare. During the course of this research I have come across a number of disturbing details that have been passed over by the industry. The most significant detail that I can easily explain is that the technology used in the current Electronic Medical Records system was first developed in a very basic form for the U.S. census in 1890, the same year that the U.S. began its Eugenics program. This same system was sold to the German government by IBM and was used by the Nazi regime to monitor the progress of the concentration camps that it set up throughout Eastern Europe.

When I contacted Discernment Ministries it was with a prayerful request for guidance on how I was to address my concerns to my employers. God, however, had different plans for where this request would lead. Through my contact with this ministry group God has opened up a vision of the current world that is at the same time bleak and also a cause for rejoicing, for it is now that we as members in the Body of Christ are being tested to the utmost and truly being called to stand firm. Would that God granted me the Grace to convey to you all a concise picture of what is moving within the Nations, but this is not in my ability. The plot is so convoluted and muddy it is hard to put down in one place all the interconnected lines.

My question for everyone is simply “Are we prepared as Christians for the days that are coming?” And my warning is that “It is now more than ever that we must be vigilant in the Lord.” I would love to begin a dialogue on these issues with everyone on this discussion forum, as I truly feel that God is sending a wake up call. This post does not do justice to the amount of research that I’ve come across and if anyone would like more details please feel free to contact me and I would be glad to explain more or point towards resources that would allow you to come to your own prayerful conclusions.

I apologize if this post is vague, as I said the details are many and varied and God has not granted me at this moment to put them down in a cohesive way. I will leave off with Isaiah 8:9-17 followed by hyper-links that provide more information –

9Associate yourselves, O ye people, and ye shall be broken in pieces; and give ear,all ye of far countries: gird yourselves, and ye shall be broken in pieces; gird yourselves, and ye shall be broken in pieces. 10Take counsel together, and it shall come to nought; speak the word, and it shall not stand: for God is with us. 11For the LORD spake thus to me with a strong hand, and instructed me that I should not walk in the way of this people, saying, 12Say ye not, A confederacy, to all them to whom this people shall say, A confederacy; neither fear ye their fear, nor be afraid. 13Sanctify the LORD of hosts himself; and let him be your fear, and let him be your dread. 14And he shall be for a sanctuary; but for a stone of stumbling and for a rock of offence to both the houses of Israel, for a gin and for a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem. 15And many among them shall stumble, and fall, and be broken, and be snared, and be taken. 16Bind up the testimony, seal the law among my disciples. 17And I will wait upon the LORD, that hideth his face from the house of Jacob, and I will look for him.

These sites are filled with information, so although I am providing a limited number of links, if you feel called I would dig deeper and prayerfully seek out more information. -

http://www.discernment-ministries.org

http://www.herescope.com

http://www.crossroad.to/articles2/007/global-mind-1.htm

http://www.crossroad.to/articles2/05/peace-un.htm

http://www.crossroad.to/charts/transformation-church.htm

http://www.crossroad.to/articles2/007/pluralism-3-global-christian.htm

http://www.forbes.com/2007/12/21/churches-executives-lessons-lead-managecx_db_1221megapastors.html?partner=email

http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/8.04/joy.html

http://www.ibmandtheholocaust.com/


David M.


_________________
David

 2008/1/20 13:17Profile
hulsey
Moderator



Joined: 2006/7/5
Posts: 640
Missouri

 Re: A Question/Warning Regarding Evangelical Apostasy and Prayerful Request

A good book you might find very helpful that goes along with this subject is [url=http://www.amazon.com/Evangelicalism-Divided-Record-Crucial-Change/dp/0851517838/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1200853191&sr=1-1]Evangelicalism Divided[/url] by Ian H. Murray. It's very informative about the last fifty years of Evangelical Christianity.


_________________
SI Moderator - Jeremy Hulsey

 2008/1/20 13:22Profile









 Re:


LORD Bless you Men.

Appreciate also Anton Bosch on those sites.

The Forbes link wouldn't come up.

Thank you !

 2008/1/20 13:33
dbm
Member



Joined: 2007/9/17
Posts: 31
Lisle, Illinois

 Re:

Thank you, I am going to the library soon and I will look into this book. The reviews mention that Ian Murray does not attack, but rather seeks to edify and this is a refreshing change from some of the heated debate that this topic can engender.

Much of my alarm comes from the physical facts of what is currently taking place (such as the Real ID act) and what this will mean if these systems are used to their full capacity. Working in the healthcare sector I know the full potential of the electronic medical record systems and coupled with the assessment testing taking place at schools, the assessments currently being run in many of the mainline churches, the fact that many of the missionaries abroad are under the direction of ill intentioned groups, and the Real ID system there is every reason to secure ourselves in Christ and seek God’s guidance against the coming days. I am wondering if the Church is ready for what may be ahead. The Church was not ready for the Nazi regime, and working from within and in secrecy the enemy has found even more subtle ways to loose the strong footing of the Church. Of late God had consistently reminded me of 1 Peter 5:6-11 (especially 5:8)

6Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt you in due time: 7Casting all your care upon him; for he careth for you. 8Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour: 9Whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world.10But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you. 11To him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.


_________________
David

 2008/1/20 13:48Profile
dbm
Member



Joined: 2007/9/17
Posts: 31
Lisle, Illinois

 Re:

Here is a solid link for the Forbes article:

http://www.forbes.com/leadership/2007/12/21/churches-executives-lessons-lead-manage-cx_db_1221megapastors.html

I apologize as the former link was one that I emailed myself and seems to have been corrupted in the process.


_________________
David

 2008/1/20 13:49Profile









 Re: A Question/Warning Regarding Evangelical Apostasy and Prayerful Request


Hello David,

I wanted to respond, because I was struck by the trail you described here:

Quote:
During the course of this research I have come across a number of disturbing details that have been passed over by the industry. The most significant detail that I can easily explain is that the technology used in the current Electronic Medical Records system was first developed in a very basic form for the U.S. census in 1890, the same year that the U.S. began its Eugenics program. This same system was sold to the German government by IBM and was used by the Nazi regime to monitor the progress of the concentration camps that it set up throughout Eastern Europe.

Quote:
I would love to begin a dialogue on these issues with everyone on this discussion forum, as I truly feel that God is sending a wake up call. This post does not do justice to the amount of research that I’ve come across and if anyone would like more details please feel free to contact me and I would be glad to explain more or point towards resources that would allow you to come to your own prayerful conclusions.

Also, I want to thank you for the carefully chosen scripture which you shared in both your posts.

When you say:
Quote:
God has opened up a vision of the current world that is at the same time bleak and also a cause for rejoicing, for it is now that we as [b]members in the Body of Christ are being tested[/b] to the utmost [b]and truly being called to stand firm[/b].

I wonder if you could outline whether you see viable [i]choice[/i] open to Christians in their relationship with healthcare provision, (and possibly other systems)?


 2008/1/24 0:18
dbm
Member



Joined: 2007/9/17
Posts: 31
Lisle, Illinois

 Re:

Linn,

Thank you for your encouragement, the scripture passages that I included have been my staff in this research. The history of the IBM Hollerith machine was the first indication that something was not right and when I looked further I was so shaken by what I found that it left me cold. Praying on it and seeking the counsel of other Christians God opened those words of Isaiah to me and they have kept me firm in this.

In posting this I am seeking the same answer, what is to be done when something so simple as healthcare might lead to dire consequences in the future. I would invite you to look at the Real ID thread that I started in the News & Current Events section of the forum for more information on some of the other issues at hand.

My hope is by presenting this information we all can prayerfully seek guidance from God. From what I can see there is legistlation in place to force this system on people at first through inticement as this technology does in fact help patient safety, does help "secure" the United States and does help things run more efficiently, but for those who do not willingly adopt it there is also legislation in place to make those people into criminals.

As the Real ID act now stands you won't be able to open a bank account, enter a federal building, board an airplane, vote or cross international borders without it. In some of the southern states they are already enforcing increased security at the state borders, so for instance passing from Arizona into California may be a problem.

Also with fears of a pandemic flu outbreak anyone not accepting mandatory vaccinations or regular check-ups will be considered a threat to the community and will necessarily need to be quarintined. In the case of the check-ups the New Freedom Commission outlines that this will lead to mandatory mental health screenings.

With the New Freedom Comission legislation they are also trying to enforce mandatory mental health testing for all children in schools. This means mandatory medication as well for those deemed "unstable". I would caution that Biblical faith is considered by secular society as an "unstable belief". I've seen the effects of these medications on friends and I can say that they do very little to help and very much to flatline personality and in some cases cause even worse problems.

A time is coming when our faith is going to be truly put to the test. There is so much division in the Church, so many seeking knowledge rather than wisdom, relying on theology rather than faith, as Christians we are the worlds only hope against what seems to be coming and as we are all called to be witnesses it seems necessary that we are the ones who will need to lead people out of this darkness. Christ is our savior, God is the only answer, but we must pray that our faith stands firm and that we truly believe in our hearts what our lips profess.

I know that many who have read this think these things are silly or that God will save us outright, but it seems to me they are not fully grasping what is coming down the line. God certainly will save the faithful, but how many of us are truly faithful? This is the question we have to ask and ignoring the situation is not a sign of faith. We have to seek answers in God and truly address these issues through prayerful reflection.

I've avoided conspiracy theories and rumors, I've sought out the legislation, I've sought to understand the technology being put in place and this is not just idle gossip. This is a real issue and possibly the most important issue at the moment as it affects everyone and is going to wake up a nation that has been put to sleep and a Church that has fallen into gross apostasy.


_________________
David

 2008/1/24 2:28Profile









 Re:

Thank you for all of your posts dbm. They are very sound and well presented.
We've had numerous posts here on the chip and the same database that you've clearly approached with sufficient research on this and your other thread.
Last Spring as I was on-line here, an interview came on with an attendee of the g8 meeting. The discussion was over "national ID cards".
The interviewee said, they are not effective for International use. That it would be a waste of money and that implementing the chip would be wisest for that International purpose.
I posted it here AS I was hearing the interview.
Thank you for your politeness and appropriate behavior in discussing the things that you've presented.
Same data bases - just the possibility thrown in that the Real ID may be over-stepped right to the chip - as others have said.

As you've correctly stated yourself - if there is "fear" at hearing these things - that certainly shouldn't be - if we are found IN HIM and in His Word.
The word "count" in Rev.13:18 is psēphizō - which means "compute".
That means, the use our God given brain and [i]Rev 13:18 Here is [u]wisdom[/u]. Let him that hath [u]understanding[/u] count .....[/i]
When we can't "buy or sell" without 'whatever' - that should be ample evidence.

Thank you for Caring!

 2008/1/24 9:29









 Re: A Question/Warning Regarding Evangelical Apostasy and Prayerful Request


Hi David,

Yes, I'm following the Real ID thread, and over here in the UK, we are having some of the same discussions. Right now, after several lapses of security over people's personal information, confidence in our government's ability to manage a single unit the size of the UK (around 60 million people), which was not strong before, is not looking good. EDIT: The logistics of a Real ID system would be enhanced if the UK could be divided up into smaller regions. Tony Blair tried half-heartedly to introduce this - that is, yet [i]another[/i] layer of local government - when we are already staggering under the weight of EU legistlation - and was met by a definite 'NO!' in a referendum of the first area proposed for such a 'local assembly'. End edit.

Perhaps we should thank the people whose ineptitudes have led to these breaches of confidence. Never thought I'd hear myself say that, but it is an improvement on what the US appears to be facing!

In fact, your threads are making me [i]hear[/i] the UK news with different ears, as our Work and Pensions secretary has just resigned because police have been called in to investigate something which Parliament would have - in the past - managed to investigate and discipline if they had wanted. The resignee is an intelligent ex-researcher with a trade union background.

This division that you made, was illuminating to my undestanding:

Quote:
[b]many seeking knowledge rather than wisdom, relying on theology rather than faith[/b], as Christians we are the worlds only hope against what seems to be coming and as we are all called to be witnesses it seems necessary that we are the ones who will need to lead people out of this darkness. Christ is our savior, God is the only answer, but we must pray that our faith stands firm and that we truly believe in our hearts what our lips profess.

The Lord has been speaking to me about these truths, because I've been bogged down with my own [i]stuff[/i] for years, but... [u]we are[/u] part of [i]'the church in earth and heaven' ~ Charles Wesley[/i].

 2008/1/24 11:13









 Re: A Question/Warning Regarding Evangelical Apostasy and Prayerful Request


The following quote came to mind when I came across this article about microchips in patients, to ensure they had taken their medication.

[url=http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-1169305/Microchip-tells-GP-8217-ve-taken-pills.html?ITO=1490]Microchip that tells the GP if you’ve taken your pills [/url]


Quote:
In the case of the check-ups the New Freedom Commission outlines that this will lead to mandatory mental health screenings.

With the New Freedom Comission legislation they are also trying to enforce mandatory mental health testing for all children in schools. This means mandatory medication as well for those deemed "unstable".




This technology, if also made mandatory for those children required by the New Freedom Commission to be put on medication, would reveal exactly how co-operative the parents were being.

 2009/4/14 4:40





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