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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Sorry to rehash

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 Re:

Quote:
Shouldn't God, if He is to be "fair" give faith to all men, and save all men, because he loves all men?



But that question is based on your presupposition that God gives faith to begin with.

God has established the basis of faith, and has given all men the ability to believe or reject.

Based on that alone, God is a just fair God, and men send tehmselves to hell.

When Jesus says,
Follow me
Come to me,
Return to me....these are all based on repentance and faith...our responsibility to react or respond to this call.

God doesn't need to give us anything but Jesus Christ and Him crucified and risen....which IS GRACE, this is the Gift.

Love
Katy

 2008/1/20 16:13
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
roaringlamb wrote:
Quote:
You still refuse to explain them.

No, you just did not like what I said.

What you said was your interp of the Scripturse that come to the conclusions that I set forth.
Please explain the conclusions of your interp of the Scriptures.

Quote:
Can something be free and a slave at the same time?

Yes:
[b]Rom 6:20[/b] [color=990000]When you were slaves of sin you were free from righteousness.[/color]
When you put is in this context, the slavery does not restrict ones judgement in reason., it only restricts their righteousness.

Quote:
Logic here are three truths that exist
1)God is holy
2)God is sovereign
3)Sin exists


His Holyness does not deminish His infinite grace, [b]nor[/b] does it make him [b]not[/b] all loving.
Your theology/doctrine has a god being very finite in grace that is not all loving.

His sovereignty does not mean all controling or the cause of all things.

Sin exists because there is law.
But, according to your theology/doctrine, god wantes sin and could have made a world with out it.
Since HE wanted sin, the ones sinning would be doing his will and being condemnd for it.

Quote:
And again, you still have not explained to me how your all-loving God can create people that he knows will not choose him, and still send them to hell?

I have; He gave them [b][size=medium]all[/size][/b] a choice to in the matter.
But, according to your theology/doctrine, He doesn't give anybody a choice, He creates some as elect and some non-elet.

If one is of the elect, he has no choice because He was created for the sole purpose to be saved.

Sure, there is an "apearance" of choice, but in reality, the choice is ultimatly made by God.
God "regenerates", only some, so that they can not deny(no choice).
You might say that they had a choice in the matter after the "regeneration", then that would mean that they could have still rejected Him while being "regenerated"
That goes in contradiction to "irrisistable grace"
One has no choice in resisting, otherwise, it would not be irrisistable.
Furthermore, you would have a "born agian" sinner that rejects Christ.

So, in regards to your question. God creates all mankind out of love. He gives all a choice in the matter because He loves them.

Why would He create some that HE knows that will reject Him by choice?
He could not have made a world with out some being lost and not infringe upon free will.
Otherwise, He would most definatly save all by infringing uppon free will and electing all.

Would you seriously bake a poop pie?

That is the same as God creating a "non-elect", "vessle of wrath".
A poop pie would only be made for the sole purpose of being flushed down the toilet. So it is with the so called "non-elect" according to your theology.

Quote:
Aren't they being created just to go to hell too?

No, they are created to worship Him.
[b]The reason that they are going to hell is for choosing [size=medium]not[/size] to do what they are created for.[/b]

Quote:
Shouldn't God, if He is to be "fair" give faith to all men, and save all men, because he loves all men?

[size=medium]Why do you alway bring up fairness, I never talk about fairness(equality), but justice(doing what is good and right)!![/size]

However, yes, He has given all mankind the ability to have faith.
All mankind has faith already, they only choose to put their faith in the wrong person/object.

 2008/1/20 16:47Profile









 Re:

Here is really the bottom line.

Faith is believing what God said is TRUTH.

If you can't believe this, then you can't have true faith according to scripture.

Abraham believed God...what God had promised, and God accounted to him as righteousness.

To deny one verse of scripture is to deny God and His word.

If God has commandeth [u]all men everywhere[/u]to repent, then He means what He said and said what He means. Will all men repent? No, but it proves repentance preceeds regeneration. God did not call all men everywhere to accept regeneration...or some meant to accept regeneration. That is His job. Our Job, REPENT!

Acts 17:30
And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

I am a person of faith. I believe what God has spoken, no man can put asunder or thwart. They may try, but to their own destruction.

To only pick and choose those scriptures that fit into your theology ignoring the rest is the most dangerous road you can walk down.

Love in Christ
Katy




 2008/1/20 17:13
ChrisJD
Member



Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2895
Philadelphia PA

 Re:

Hi everyone.


Katy-Did, you said


"To only pick and choose those scriptures that fit into your theology ignoring the rest is the most dangerous road you can walk down."



"When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life."


- Acts chapter 11 verse 18(KJV)


Shouldn't you include this also?


Chris





_________________
Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2008/1/21 19:55Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re: Sorry to rehash

The only answer to these heinous fallacies that I pose in my first post is This:
[color=0000CC]1: Some people make the Atonement to be only for a chosen few(the Elect) where God is not ALL Loving and very finite in grace. In contrast which the Atonement is for all and is ALL Loving and infinite in grace.[/color]
The answer is that the Atonement is the translated word kaw-far' from Hebrew to English which means “to cover” of the Jewish Fast of Yom Kippur (Day of Atonement). It incorporates the words reconciliation, propitiation (satisfaction) and forgiveness. The work of Christ on His cross makes away for salvation while the salvation it's self comes from the relationship one has with Him and not just in what he did on the cross.

This doctrine of Limited Atonement misinterprets the word atonement to be the salvation of man, when, in actuality, the true meaning is that it is only the taking away of sin, it is the forgiveness if sin, thus making peace between God and man (Col1:20). Christ's work makes redemption possible for all but guaranteed for only those who take advantage of it and apply it to their selves.
They claim that the atonement saves man instead of the relationship with Christ. The actual salvation is eternal life (John 17:3).

The next heinous fallacy:
[color=0000CC]2: God would Create men that are the non-chosen, non-elect. These must be hated creations, for the very purpose of being destroyed in hell. Therefore, man is doing that which he was created to do, that is to sin & yet, being condemd for it.
The non-elect have no grace to be saved because the Atonement is not for them.
They were never suposed to be saved in the first place, which makes them created only to be distroyed in hell.
Therefore, they are not in hell for what they have done, but in hell for that wich they were created for.[/color]
God elects accourding to HIS foreknowlege that we will accept Him, not for the reason of accepting or rejecting them.
God does not create vessels of wrath(Men are not born as a vessel of wrath).
God creats all mankind as a vessel for honor, but they are mared in HIS hand(Jer 18:2-6)[they choose to rebel and disobey], therefore, HE reforms them into vessels of wrath out of judgment.


The next heinous fallacy:
[color=0000CC]3: Man can not even do what is required to be right with God which is to repent and put his faith in/on Christ.
Man is condemned for that wich is unavoidable.[/color]
All mankind is able to have faith in Christ.
All mankind is able to do what is required to be right with God. The reason that they are condemnd is they do not do what they are able to do.
The are condemnd because they choose not to put their faith in HIM, they choose not to repent.

The next heinous fallacy:
[color=0000CC]4: One must be "regenerated" first before he can even attempt to repent and put his faith in/on Christ. This theology makes God wrathful and hating man because He Himself would not let them obey by not regenerating them.
Man is guilty for what God will not do.

This puts the blame on God for not giving them the ability to obey the command to repent and to put his faith in/on Christ.[/color]
Regeneration before salvatiuon is unbiblical.
Man does not need to be "regenerated" in order to put their faith in HIM and/or repent.
Therefore God is wrathful and hating man because man chooses not to do what he is already able to do.
Man is guilty for choosing not to do what is commanded of him.

The next heinous fallacy:
[color=0000CC]5: God would condemn man from the result of His own doing.
This is God making man condemned before the crime of sin by the law of "Federal Headship of Adam".
By this, God made the very nature of man to be sin by the law of "Federal Headship of Adam" which HE Himself instituted, this causes the very nature of man to be sin, hence the "sin nature".[/color]
The "Federal Headship of Adam" is not Biblical.
Sin nature is mans attempt to justify the reason for his own choice to rebel.
If it is only mans choice for sinning, he can not explain why one will always choose to sin.
The answer is that one will allways choose to sin is because he does not know Christ, he does not have eternal life.

All mankind is able to not sin by walking after the spirit according to Rom 8:5. The only way to do this is by choosing to put their faith in/on Christ and HIS Attonment and by repenting; this makes the relaitionsip with HIM possible which gives Eternal life. Eternal lif is the power to walk after the spirit that the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in them that have a relationship with HIM.

The next heinous fallacy:
[color=0000CC]6: God would make a world with sin when HE could have made one that didn't.
This means that He chose the world that has sin over the one that didn't. This, in turn, means that He wanted sin to exist, & yet condemns for that which HE wills.[/color]
Truth is that God could not have made a world with out sin and not infringe on free will.
(He couldn't have made a world with no sin by making a world with no laws, however, God is not lawless)
God did not want sin, that is the reason why HE comands not to sin and it is why HE condemns it.

The next heinous fallacy:
[color=0000CC]7: Those who are pre-selected to hell in contraposition to the Elect, can not ever repent because God refuses to give them the ability(regeneration) and condemns for it.
(Man is guilty for what God pre-ordains to be.)[/color]
All man kind has the ability, they do not need to be "regenerated" befor they can choose.
God does not pre-ordain any one to hell!

 2008/2/11 14:43Profile
jimp
Member



Joined: 2005/6/18
Posts: 1481


 Re:

beloved,unbelievers have been declared condemned already.justice has already been rendered and mankind is guilty and already sentenced.it is mercy of God that saves thru the finished work on the cross.it is for all who will believe; the elect.jimp

 2008/2/11 15:41Profile





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