SermonIndex Audio Sermons
Image Map
Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Sorry to rehash

Print Thread (PDF)

Goto page ( Previous Page 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 Next Page )
PosterThread
roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

Brother Logic,
I found this on another site, and felt it spoke volumes to your question. The original question is in line with the question you have.

Note that I did not write this, so when it says, "my response", it is the original author(John Hendryx) and not myself.

[i]A comment by David, a professed Christian (apparently), who said the following:

"So God Chooses to save some and not save others, which basically means he creates people knowing ahead of time he isn't going to save them but burn them in hell. What a monster"

My Response:
Hi David

Thanks for taking the time to post and unveil a common point of ignorance among professed Christians. Perhaps you do not realize it, but you just called God "a monster."

"How?", you ask, 'that's your God, not mine', you would say. Consider, are you thereby asserting that God did not know what would take place before He created the world? That He had no idea who he would save? That God is in fact, totally ignorant of any, and every, aspect of the future, including our salvation? Is there anything God does not know? Does time itself, therefore, have mastery over God? Such is not the God of the Scriptures nor is He any God that can be trusted to save. For if God did not know evil would enter the world before He created it then you have no way of knowing whether He will overcome evil in the future. For, if there is something outside of God like 'chance', or 'evil 'which God has no sovereignty over (the god you seem to propose), then evil would be on equal par with God. Such is a Greek, not a Hebrew or Biblical concept of God. Our comfort can only come from a God who has complete sovereignty over all events (Eph 1:11). There is no comfort in a god that has no idea what the future holds.

Similarly, in all concepts of God, even Arminian and Greek Orthodox ones, He exhaustively and meticulously knows the future. And if He knows the future exhaustively, before He created it, then we both know that the future cannot be otherwise than it was decreed. And He knows, not some, but all things before they take place, unless you believe God is ignorant of some things. Therefore, if you are a Christian, as you seem to claim, then even in your conception of God He knows exhaustively what would happen to each individual even before He created them. Their eternal destiny, therefore, could not be otherwise - from eternity He chooses some in Christ (Eph 1:3-5) according to His sovereign good pleasure. In other words, by your own words, you just called your own God a monster, unless you think God is, in any way, ignorant of the future, which would mean that He is no God at all, but a finite, created being. People who think this way need to be called to repentance, for it is pure ignorance and folly, and one of the highest forms of blasphemy, to call God a 'monster' simply because He exhaustively knows all things before they take place, AND this is exactly what you, (and many like you), have just done and do quite often. So if you acknowledge that God knows the future exhaustively, then I think repentance is in order for you because if you consder these things for a moment, you should recognize that you believe the same thing as I. I trust you have said this without deep consideration and if you ask forgiveness of God He will forgive your careless words because Christ has paid them in full.

If you still doubt, ask yourself, is there anything God is ignorant of? Do not fasten ignorance on God - it does not bode well for a Christian of any stripe. And you must remember, God justly casts persons into hell because of the sin he sees in them, not randomly. And since all have sinned, then some get justice and others mercy, but no one gets injustice.[/i]


_________________
patrick heaviside

 2008/1/17 20:23Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
roaringlamb wrote:
Brother Logic,
I found this on another site, and felt it spoke volumes to your question. The original question is in line with the question you have....

"So God Chooses to save some and not save others, which basically means he creates people knowing ahead of time he isn't going to save them but burn them in hell. What a monster"

My Response:
Hi David

Thanks for taking the time to post and unveil a common point of ignorance among professed Christians. Perhaps you do not realize it, but you just called God "a monster."

He is not calling God a monster.
He is calling the god that the theology/doctrine describes as a monster.

Do you not see the atrocities that are concluded from these theologies/doctrines in my first post?

Quote:
Consider, are you thereby asserting that God did not know what would take place before He created the world?

He knew everything, not caused everything.

Quote:
Therefore, if you are a Christian, as you seem to claim, then even in your conception of God He knows exhaustively what would happen to each individual even before He created them.

He knows what would happen to each one, He does not cause anyone to be in hell as your theology/doctrine claimes.

Quote:
Their eternal destiny, therefore, could not be otherwise - from eternity He chooses some in Christ (Eph 1:3-5) according to His sovereign good pleasure.

1Peter 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge...

HE knows who will come to Him when HE calls.
He does not control any, otherwise HE would control all to be saved.

Quote:
In other words, by your own words, you just called your own God a monster, unless you think God is, in any way, ignorant of the future, which would mean that He is no God at all, but a finite, created being.

I call the god that you describes as a monster.
Not the only true God(John 17:3)

HE is not ignorant of the future, but HE does not cause everything, otherwise HE would have caused Adam to never sin.
Furthermore, you are thre one making God "a finite" being in grace and love.

Quote:
People who think this way need to be called to repentance, for it is pure ignorance and folly, and one of the highest forms of blasphemy, to call God a 'monster' simply because He exhaustively knows all things before they take place, AND this is exactly what you, (and many like you), have just done and do quite often. So if you acknowledge that God knows the future exhaustively, then I think repentance

You are the one that has theology/doctrine that logicaly concludes the the points that I make in my first post.
You can not deny that they are despicable.

[b]Question, please answewr:
1:[/b] Do you not see any injustices in my first post[b]?[/b]
They are the logical conclusions to your theology/doctrine.
[b]2:[/b] Why would you accept a theology/doctrine that makes God out to be a devilish tyrant[b]?[/b]
Find the truth that will not leads to these conclusions.

 2008/1/17 23:54Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3699
Ca.

 Re:

Ephesians 1:3-11 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

If we were predestinated to salvation by Grace, and that through faith, who does the Grace flow from and who does the Faith flow from for us to be saved.

This is what predestination is all about, not some to salvation and not to salvation, but the the Grace of God through the Faith of Jesus Christ that saves us.

Ephesians 1:4-5 According as he hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,

Who chose? When were we chosen? How are we Holy? Before whom In Love? Who predestinated us unto adoption of Children? By Whom to Himself? By whose good pleasure?

How are we saved? What are we predestinated to?

Ephesians 2:8-10 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

We are predestinated to be in Christ and that before the foundation of the world.

Who's Faith, who's Grace into whom?

This that we might be the son's of God.

Why does man think that God owes any man anything, including salvation. Only by Grace are any to be saved. For without Grace and mercy and Jesus Christ and the Cross, none would, could or could or would ever be saved.

He predestinated none to hell, that is just the place of all that are not saved. God wishes all could be saved but He know that all would not.

Not His fault but ours and fallen Satan, and he is already judged, his fate sealed.

Praise God that God has given us the Faith of Jesus Christ only because we believed that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. Then all our salvation is in fear and trembling that only by Grace through that Faith are we saved, because we simply believed. Now the repentance and work of God begins in the believer by the Christ that is born again in us, that our new nature creation would get us into the kingdom of God.

In Christ: Phillip


_________________
Phillip

 2008/1/18 0:19Profile









 Re:

Hi Phillip

Yes, I'm beginning to see what you are saying.

Sorry for being so dense. It was the OT/NT aspect that confused me

in Him

Jeannette

 2008/1/18 15:57
Jeppe
Member



Joined: 2007/5/14
Posts: 25
The Netherlands

 Re:

Hi roaringlamb,

i looked at your post and have some comments.

Quote:
"A comment by David, a professed Christian (apparently), who said the following:

"So God Chooses to save some and not save others, which basically means he creates people knowing ahead of time he isn't going to save them but burn them in hell. What a monster"
"



Indeed God created people knowing ahead of time he isn't going to save them. This doesn't make God a monster.

Quote:
Similarly, in all concepts of God, even Arminian and Greek Orthodox ones, He exhaustively and meticulously knows the future. And if He knows the future exhaustively, before He created it, then we both know that the future cannot be otherwise than it was decreed. And He knows, not some, but all things before they take place, unless you believe God is ignorant of some things. Therefore, if you are a Christian, as you seem to claim, then even in your conception of God He knows exhaustively what would happen to each individual even before He created them. Their eternal destiny, therefore, could not be otherwise - from eternity He chooses some in Christ (Eph 1:3-5) according to His sovereign good pleasure.



Quote:
And you must remember, God justly casts persons into hell because of the sin he sees in them, not randomly. And since all have sinned, then some get justice and others mercy, but no one gets injustice.




I would say the writer of this text (John Hendryx) explains more the arminian view then the calvinistic view. So I don't think the text helps giving an answer to the questions in the first post.

Their is a great difference in the future being fixed because God already knows what is going to happen.
And the future being fixed beacause God ordained what is going to happen and therefore also knows it.

The first lies the cause of men ending up in hell on men: God knew men would rebel but created them anyway, but in His mercy has offered Christ, whom he also knew many would reject (because of men doing his own pleasure and not Gods) leaving no other way than his wrath being poured out over them.
The second lies the cause of men ending up in hell on God ordaining them to hell: God not only knew they would rebel, but decreed they would rebel (according to Gods good pleasure) in order to cast them in eternal torment.

It seems to me the writer explains more in line with the first view.

Quote:
if you consder these things for a moment, you should recognize that you believe the same thing as I. I trust you have said this without deep consideration and if you ask forgiveness of God He will forgive your careless words because Christ has paid them in full.



A true calvinist can't really say this with assurance can he? because he doesn't believe Christ paid for all... (or the writer must believe the person can only ask forgiveness if he is predestined ofcourse)

just giving my 2cents on that post.. I've just recently began to make study on both views and can't yet put myself on one or the other side because of different bible verses, i hope i'm not wasting my time but pray God will guide me on the right path, which could also be neither Calvinism nor Arminianism.

One thing is for sure though: God is good, righteous, true, loving, merciful, allknowing allpowerfull and often way beyond our comprehension.

bless God,

Jeppe


_________________
Jeppe

 2008/1/18 19:18Profile









 Re:

Quote:
Why does man think that God owes any man anything, including salvation. Only by Grace are any to be saved. For without Grace and mercy and Jesus Christ and the Cross, none would, could or could or would ever be saved.



If the PLAN of salvation of mankind was before the foundation of the world, then there was a PLAN before mankind was formed in bringing many sons into Glory.

Ordinary man, made of the dust of the earth .... Adam and Eve. They were never promised co-heir ship...sonship, to be seated with Christ in Heavenly Places In Christ.

If we see that sin entered the universe long before it entered into man or upon man, maybe we can see something here as well.


Romans 8 says even the earth waits and groans together with us waiting....for what?

When Satan entered the Garden in the form of a serpent, it was already an imperfect universe.

Yet, look at Revelation 20-22. The New Heaven and New Earth,... nothing evil will be able to enter in, and satan and teh fallen angels will forever be in the lake of fire.

When Adam & Eve sinned, they did not corrupt heaven. When satan and 1/3 of the angels fell that is when sin entered.

Even knowing this, God still created man, in a imperfect universe...because He had something sooooo much better planned.

No, none of us deserve to be a part of any of God's plan, but we are.

AND whosoever will may come an be a part of it all.


Love in Christ
Katy-Did

 2008/1/18 19:39
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3699
Ca.

 Re:

That is the question; Whosoever will come?

Without Gods intervention, NONE.

OLD TESTAMENT;

Num 16:5 And he spake unto Korah and unto all his company, saying, Even to morrow the LORD will shew who [are] his, and [who is] holy; and will cause [him] to come near unto him: even [him] whom he hath chosen will he cause to come near unto him.

NEW TESTAMENT;

1 Corinthians 4:1-7 Let a man so account of us, as of the ministers of Christ, and stewards of the mysteries of God. Moreover it is required in stewards, that a man be found faithful. But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self. For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord. Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God. And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another. For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?

1 Timothy 2:3-5 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Matthew Poole's Commentary on the Holy Bible
1Ti 2:4
Ver. 4. The apostle produces a clear, convincing reason, that the duty of charity in praying for all men is pleasing to God, from his love extended to all, in his willing their salvation, and their knowledge and belief of the gospel, which is the only way of salvation. From hence our Saviour's commission and command to the apostles was universal: Go and teach all nations, Mt 28:19; Preach the gospel to every creature, that is, to every man, Mr 16:15; he excludes no people, no person. And accordingly the apostles discharged their office to their utmost capacity, Col 1:24. But a question arises, how it can be said that God would have all men saved, when that the most of men perish? For the resolving this difficulty, we must observe, that in the style of Scripture the will of God sometimes signifies his eternal counsel and decree; that things should be done either by his immediate efficiency, or by the intervention of means: or, secondly, his commands and invitations to men to do such things as are pleasing to him. The will of God in the first sense always infallibly obtains its effect, Ps 115:3; thus he declares: My counsel shall stand, I will do all my pleasure, Isa 46:10; for otherwise there must be a change of God's will and counsel, or a defect of power, both which assertions are impious blasphemy. But those things which he commands and are pleasing to him, are often not performed without any reflection upon him, either as mutable or impotent. Thus he declares, that he wills things that are pleasing to him; as, I will not the death of a sinner, but that he should turn and live, Eze 33:11; and sometimes that he will not those things that are displeasing to him, as contrary to holiness, though he did not decree the hindering of them: thus he complains in Isa 55:12: Ye did evil before mine eyes, and did choose that wherein I delighted not. This distinction of the Divine will being clearly set down in Scripture, answers the objection; for when it is said in the text, that God will have all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth; and in the same sense by St. Peter, that God will have none perish, but come to repentance, 2Pe 3:9; we must understand it, not with respect to his decretive will, but his complacential will, that is, the repentance and life of a sinner is very pleasing to his holiness and mercy. And this love of God to men has been declared in opening the way of salvation to them by the Mediator, and by all the instructions, invitations, commands, and promises of the gospel, assuring them that whoever comes to Christ upon the terms of the gospel shall in no wise be cast off; that no believing believer shall be excluded from saving mercy. Then true repentance is applicable and our eyes will see and our ears hear.



Only God can predestinate righteously and all that man thinks of does in this area is nothing.
For it is God who works and does for His Good pleasure.

All our words are dirty rags and all out goodness is less than the least goodness of God.

It is Gods good pleasure that any are saved. He would not be unrighteous to completely wipe out all mankind. Which He almost did except for 8 souls

Genesis 6:5-8 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them. But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

Not favor for anything he had done but by the Grace of God and that is how the new testament believer is saved unto the kingdom of God. By Grace through Faith. We have absolutely nothing to do with it, except believe what God has said about His Son Jesus Christ, that if we believe we shall be saved.

John 3:7-17 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be? Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things? Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness. If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things? And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Yes God had a purpose before the foundation of the world, and that purpose was Christ in the believer the Hope of Glory. Not because we deserved it but because of Gods love for the world and Jesus Christ, His only begotten Son.

In Christ: Phillip


_________________
Phillip

 2008/1/18 21:20Profile









 Re:

Quote:
Without Gods intervention, NONE.



Absolutely! Without God's plan of Salvation, in that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us ( mankind).

No, we cannot die for ourselves, save ourselves, redeem ourselves, *as is Adam all men died, but as in Christ all (whosoever will) shall be made alive forever more..having eternal life.

All have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God. Where sin abounded Grace MUCH MORE abounded.

There is MORE Grace then there is sin, so there is nothing limited in redemption.

The New Birth is a divine act of God.

To as many as receive Him, to them gave he the power to become the sons of God.

I stand at the door and knock...if ANY MAN ****hear*** My voice.......

Faith comes by Hearing, and how beautiful are the feet of those who preach the Gospel of peace and bring glad tidings of the Good News....be ye reconciled to God...He has made a way through His Son Jesus Christ for the forgivness of sin. No one can come to the Father except through His Son.


The Gospel of the Good News is not about the Chosen...it's about Jesus Christ!

Quote:
Without Gods intervention, NONE.



Thank you Father for sending Your Son Jesus Christ!

Love in Christ
Katy

 2008/1/19 8:12
ChrisJD
Member



Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2895
Philadelphia PA

 Re:

Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above


_________________
Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2008/1/19 8:28Profile









 Re:

Quote:
Num 16:5 And he spake unto Korah and unto all his company, saying, Even to morrow the LORD will shew who [are] his, and [who is] holy; and will cause [him] to come near unto him: even [him] whom he hath chosen will he cause to come near unto him.



How totally sad when we take scripture out of context to make a point of being chosen to salvation.

One must read ALL of Numbers 16 to understand what was going on. This has nothing to do with salvation, but who God had appointed to bring Israel to the Promised land...Moses.

How GOD established through Moses the Levitical Priesthood...once again....***ministry***....not salvation.


Has God called and Chosen YOU to share the Gospel to the Lost. Is this YOUR ministry in leading lost souls to the Promise land...Jesus Christ. Then yes...please remind teh hard harded Calvinists of this chapter!!!!

Yes, just as in the days of Korah, these too, who stand in the way of sinners and sit in the seat of the scornful will end up just as Korah and the 14,000 who parished with him.

Did anyone qustion Joshua's call to bring Israel into settling the Land....God Chose him too, along with Caleb.

Please ...lets study every scripture and surrounding scriptures to get an idea what CHOSEN means in each instance.

Here is Matthew Henry on Numbers 16.

Nothing here remotely relates to the doctrine of Calvinism.



The rebellion of Korah, Dathan, and Abiram Korah contends for the priesthood.

Pride and ambition occasion a great deal of mischief both in churches and states. The rebels quarrel with the settlement of the priesthood upon Aaron and his family. Small reason they had to boast of the people's purity, or of God's favour, as the people had been so often and so lately polluted with sin, and were now under the marks of God's displeasure. They unjustly charge Moses and Aaron with taking honour to themselves; whereas they were called of God to it. See here, 1. What

spirit levellers are of; those who resist the powers God has set over them. 2. What usage they have been serviceable. Moses sought instruction from God. The heart of the wise studies to answer, and asks counsel of God. Moses shows their privileges as Levites, and convicts them of the sin of undervaluing these privileges. It will help to keep us from envying those above us, duly to consider how many there are below us.


Love in Christ
Katy

 2008/1/19 8:47





©2002-2020 SermonIndex.net
Promoting Genuine Biblical Revival.
Privacy Policy