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 Re:

Quote:

roaringlamb wrote:
Sorry sister, I did not mean all of that for you. I did not divide it properly, please forgive me.

No problem. I knew you didn't mean it for me! ;-)

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You have a point about the paradoxes though, and I think at times we must learn to be comfortable in the gray, rather than have to have black or white answers.

No, not grey! I see them more as sparkling facets of a great jewel - each one representing some aspect of the nature and work of the Lord. Like Revelation describes the rainbow colours surrounding His Throne!

Biblical paradoxes used to worry me greatly, because of not being able to fathom them out, but now I love 'em! :-D

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Grace and peace to you.

And to you, Brother.

in Him

Jeannette

 2008/1/13 19:50
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
LittleGift wrote:
Here are some facts about God that none of us would dispute:

1. God is sovereign, all-powerful, everything in heaven and earth happens only at His will.

This is wrong. God willed Adfam not to sin.
There is more, but this is a good start.

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4.He executes perfect justice

TRUE, but, you must be able to explain my point in my first post then.


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5. Above all, HE IS LOVE

True, but then explain why God would creat vessles of wrath from the start, making them the non-elect before any of them sins(Rom 9:11).

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These things seem contradictory if we take them in a "linear", "Logical" way (excuse the pun, Bro Logic! )

One must keep them in a cronologicly linear way!
God must judge "linear", "Logicaly", otherwise HE would be judging before the crime.

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How can an omnipotent God allow rebellion against Himself?

Because HE wants man to choose to love HIM, not control one to love HIM.

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How can a God of righteousness "wink at" sin?

Only times of ignorance(Act 17:30)

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How can a God of Justice send someone to hell if they had no choice but to rebel against Him and reject His salvation?

There is choice.

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How can a God of love send anyone to hell?

He gives them a choice in the matter.
HE made a way for them to escape HIS wrath.

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How can a God of love compel anyone to love Him in return?
Love, by its very nature is freely given and received, or it would be coercian.

It is resisted.
Even by your standard, it is wrong.

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Yet how can an omnipotent God fail in His loving desire to "have all men saved and come to the knowledge of the truth"?

Becuase HE want all men to [b]FREELY[/b] love HIM in return.

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And how can an all-knowing, loving, righteous, just God deliberately create some individuals for destruction?

Because HE couldn't make a world with out sin an not infring upon free will.

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So many paradoxes!

No paradox at all. just bad theology/doctrine.

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Maybe we are looking at Scriptural Truth the wrong way altogether!

I am glad you are starting to realize it.

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It isn't a mathematical problem but a kind of symphony!

It sort of is a mathematical problem;
If a doctrine is true, the truth of it will be the passing the "test"
How do you know that anything is wrong?
It is because it does not make sence or "add up".
Example:
2+2=7
This is wrong, therefore, it does not make sence, and [b]because[/b] it does not make sence, you judge it to be wrong.
You can only make sence out of 2+2=4, that is because it is the only thruth of the equation.

It is the same with theology/doctrine.

 2008/1/13 22:22Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
roaringlamb wrote:

My point in posting what I did was simply to point out that the problem is not that none have shown logic how and why from Scripture. The problem as it was with me for awhile is that the flesh does not like it, and thus decides God must be fair to all, or He is not God.

I never say anything about fairness & you know it.
This is about justice.

Furthermore, it is not a "flesh" problem, it is a theological/doctrinal problem.
Why can't you get that?

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As I have brought up before, was God unfair when He drowned the Egyptians in the Red Sea?

Uh, yes, they did not repent, they deserved the judgment.

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Did He go against their wills?

No, He let them rebel.

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After all, they wanted to destroy Israel, and I am pretty sure they wanted to go on living too.

They could have stayed living if they didn't want to destroy Israel.
The had a choice in the matter.

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Yet, God is completely fair in drowning them as they had sinned against Him, as have all men.

Yes, but according to you, There rebelion was God's will, and they were yet judged as sinners doing HIS will.

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o you must either carry out your argument of fairness to its logical end and say that in order for God to be "fair", He will save all men everywhere that have ever existed.

The "fairness" is giving all men a chance to repent and not creating men to be born a vessle of wrath(non-elect)
Why not just get rid of your falicious theology/doctrine and discover the truth?

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Ultimately, I suppose God would have to save Satan as well so that God cannot be labeled as unfair.

Lucifer had no flesh nor any temptation to sin.
He was also in the very pressence of God and still choce to sin.
God is very just in condemning HIM.

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Ahh, but you will say that Satan rebelled against God and is rightly damned because of his rebellion. Yet man gets off free for the same thing?

How is man "off free for the same thing?"
Jesus had to pay a price, I would not call that "getting off free"
As for Lucifer, why not make a way for him and the Demmonds?
Theydo not have sinnful flesh and do not have any temptation, they have no way of salvation.

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Again, it seems you do not like the truth of God being Sovereign.

It is not a Sovereign issue.

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But you would like to have an open theistic view, where God must respond to mans' decisions, and does not know all things, and is not bringing all things to His expected end.

I never have implyed any of those conclusions.

I have no stomach for a theology that makes God into a devilish tyrant.
What freeks me out is that people like you accept this theology.

Fact is, God is not how you discribe him.
He does not reject people, people reject him, and that is why they are in hell, not the other way around.
God hardens the hearts of man out of judgment because they hardend their heart first; and people are not born as vessles of wrath(Jer 18:4).
God has no plesure in the death of the wicked(Eze 33:11).

Since Eze 33:11 is true, why would HE creat non-elect as a vessle of wrath being not yet born?
That is not judgment, but an atrocity.

Your theology makes an infamous God who is not all loveing and very finite in grace.
All controling and the cause of everything.

He is a fiend that creats sentient beings for the purpose of eternal torment, and this is for his own plesure.

Funny thing is that I hate the God you describe, is it any wonder that the athiest off the street does too.
I am "elected" and they are not. why would I hate the God that you describe if it is only the "non-elect" that does?

I am not ranting against GOD, but the fallacious theologies/doctrins of perverts who would worship a god like that.

 2008/1/13 22:42Profile









 Re:

Hi Bro Logic

You seem to have misunderstood where I’m coming from. Have you read my last pm yet?

Jeannette

 2008/1/15 17:30









 Re:

Quote:

Logic wrote:
Quote:
LittleGift wrote:
Here are some facts about God that none of us would dispute:

1. God is sovereign, all-powerful, everything in heaven and earth happens only at His will.

This is wrong. God willed Adam not to sin.

God is all-powerful etc. God willed Adam not to sin. Adam sinned anyway. [i]All[/i] of these statements are true, none of them are wrong!

That’s an example of the paradox I was talking about.

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4.He executes perfect justice

TRUE, but, you must be able to explain my point in my first post then.

Why do you expect me to explain? I’m not a Calvinist ;-) I do see truth in several aspects of Calvinist-type doctrine - the emphasis on God’s sovereign grace for example. But partial truth isn’t Truth!

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How can an omnipotent God allow rebellion against Himself?

Because HE wants man to choose to love HIM, not control one to love HIM.

Exactly!

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Yet how can an omnipotent God fail in His loving desire to "have all men saved and come to the knowledge of the truth"?

Becuase HE want all men to [b]FREELY[/b] love HIM in return.

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And how can an all-knowing, loving, righteous, just God deliberately create some individuals for destruction?

Because HE couldn't make a world with out sin an not infringing upon free will.

AMEN! So there [i]has[/i] to be some element of free will, however small! If only in the power to refuse to love and turn to the Lord even when He grants us the grace to do so.

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So many paradoxes!

No paradox at all. just bad theology/doctrine.

Whose theology are you talking about? To me, paradox means that it is impossible to put God’s Truth in a box based on understanding one or two facets of His nature and His ways, and try to limit Him to our understanding.

Doing [i]that[/i] produces bad theology.
If you base theology on God’s omnipotence only, you get a hard, unloving, unjust kind of God, who predestines people to heaven or hell on a mere whim, and condemns us when we complain at this injustice.

But if you base theology on His love and forgiveness only you get a weak, insipid, sentimental God who can’t possibly send anyone to hell, even those who reject Him utterly.

Both are wrong.

The true Lord is Love, Justice, Righteousness, omnipotence, and more, much more that our minds can't grasp.

All together, at the same time, without any contradiction or confusion


Blessed be His Name!


Jeannette

 2008/1/15 17:55
HomeFree89
Member



Joined: 2007/1/21
Posts: 797
Indiana

 Re:

Hi Logic,

Here is a good link about this topic.

[url=http://www.middletownbiblechurch.org/doctrine/dangerso.htm]The Dangers of Reformed Theology[/url]

Jordan


_________________
Jordan

 2008/1/15 18:35Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3697
Ca.

 Re:

Since most of the church is so intent on the old testament of living and doing, here is what God has to say about it.

Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these [things].

This is just the word of God. This is how man lived under the old testament without Christ being the born again creature that now lives in the believer. If man was willed to not sin then he would not sin. If man was told not to sin and God knowing he would, God had to create, even before the foundation of the world a way back for the race of Adam. He did it already knowing that out of death must come life. "Christ in you the Hope of Glory".

Ephesians 1:1-13 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus: Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Live in the Grace and presence of Jesus Christ to whom all Grace and life has been given for those that believe. Christ died for all, but all won't come to Him. If it were not for God and His Grace none would come to salvation and repentance. Regeneration and Salvation first by the Grace of God the Father, then repentance and coming to the Mind of Christ by the Holy Spirit that is now in the believer sealing God the Son in our spirit and adoption as son's.

This is the old testament way of salvation:

Deu 6:2 That thou mightest fear the LORD thy God, to keep all his statutes and his commandments, which I command thee, thou, and thy son, and thy son's son, all the days of thy life; and that thy days may be prolonged.

Which none can do.

This is the new testament way of salvation:

Ephesians 1:11-14 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Which can only be done by those in Christ:

Knowing that the world new Him not, how can we thank God for what He has done by His son? Every soul deserved death and hell, there are no words that can give thanks to The God of our Lord Jesus Christ for what they have done. It is not in us to give this thanks, only the Son knows that He completed the Father's will so God could have children in His house. It is only in the Christ that is in us that the Father receives the undoubted praise for the great revealing of the incredible Glory that Jesus Christ has been given, seated at the right Hand of The Father, do His Glory.

What is this exceeding greatness in Christ Jesus, which words cannot describe, only revealed by the Holy Spirit, the Sealer of our salvation in Christ Jesus?

Ephesians 1:19-23 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: And hath put all things under His feet, and gave Him to be the head over all things to the church, Which is His body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

All things? I have no answer for this, I only know that Jesus Christ is the answer, and The Holy Spirit will reveal the incredible answer in His prefect timing.

2 Corinthians 10:12-18 For we dare not make ourselves of the number, or compare ourselves with some that commend themselves: but they measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise. But we will not boast of things without our measure, but according to the measure of the rule which God hath distributed to us, a measure to reach even unto you. For we stretch not ourselves beyond our measure, as though we reached not unto you: for we are come as far as to you also in preaching the gospel of Christ: Not boasting of things without our measure, that is, of other men's labours; but having hope, when your faith is increased, that we shall be enlarged by you according to our rule abundantly, To preach the gospel in the regions beyond you, and not to boast in another man's line of things made ready to our hand. But he that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord. For not he that commendeth himself is approved, but whom the Lord commendeth.

He will reveal even that unto us.

Phl 3:15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

Perfect in Christ and no other in whom our Glory is in.

Colossians 1:27-29 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

In Christ: Phillip




_________________
Phillip

 2008/1/16 13:50Profile









 Re:

Quote:
Christinyou said:

Since most of the church is so intent on the old testament of living and doing, here is what God has to say about it.

Amen, Brother Phillip! You posted some wonderful thoughts here...

However, I'm not sure what connection you are making to this particular thread.

I'm not even sure from your post whether you are pro or anti Calvinist or "none of the above" ;-)...

Could you explain, more simply, what the question of predestination has with the difference between Old and New Testament faith?

Of course, the [i]word[/i] "predestinated" is in Ephesians 1, as you quoted. But I still don't see the connection...

Maybe it's just my age :-?

Or maybe its because the Bible is such a wonderful book, and so rich that we each see truths that others miss, but are so plain to us that we don't realise others may need explanation?

However, your meditation blessed me anyway :-D

Yours in Him

Jeannette

[Edit - a couple of minor additions]

 2008/1/17 14:18
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3697
Ca.

 Re:

Who are we predestinated to?

Then who's Faith are we predestinated to?

Ephesians 1:3-14 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Galatians 2:14-18 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews? We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.

There is no faith in the law, there is only faith in Jesus Christ that saves to the utmost.

"You search the scriptures", there is no salvation their, there is only Salvation in the Faith of Jesus Christ. The Law has no faith how could the Law save except by works.

Ephesians 2:8-10 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

The Gift of God is "Christ in you the hope of Glory".

Colossians 1:27-29 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

This is the Faith of Christ in the believer unto salvation: Phillip


_________________
Phillip

 2008/1/17 18:04Profile









 Re:

Hi Philip

You have left me more puzzled than ever!

You rightly contrast law and grace, as the main difference between the Old and New Covenants. But you seem to think that explaining the difference between law and grace somehow explains predestination as well. That's the part I don't understand, how you link the two...

Are you saying that someone who believes in predestination is still following the OT law - or that he has the NT faith, or what???

I know (basically) what the [i]Bible[/i] says, though our interpretation of what it means may be different; but would like to understand what [i]you[/i] are saying!

Blessings

Jeannette

 2008/1/17 19:14





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